The Sect of Blades

Xarian

I don't see how this Blades idea would work with the hood of elusion artifact. Someone with hood is impossible to chase/gank unless you have hood as well, so anyone with a hood would almost always be the ganker, never the gankee.

Arbre

I hate it when admin introduce changes they're adding.  When they talk about it on forums, people do nothing but pick it apart and bitch.  When they just -release- it, everyone gets excited at something new and unheard of, and they bitch much less.  See: ylem

Xarian

90% of this thread is nothing but people saying how much they love the idea, with some discussion of how it would all play out. There's been 1 post that was negative, and she had a reasonable point: the responsibility for finding good 1v1 combat is on the player who wants it, not on mechanics or even on other players. I don't think this thread can be reasonably described as "nothing but picking it apart and bitching." Some discussion of how things might work is helpful, both to players and to the admin designing it, who may want the input.

Daskalos

Maybe just get rid of the hood and do refunds when this is introduced. Two birds, one stone!

Illikaal

Xarian said:

90% of this thread is nothing but people saying how much they love the idea, with some discussion of how it would all play out. There's been 1 post that was negative, and she had a reasonable point: the responsibility for finding good 1v1 combat is on the player who wants it, not on mechanics or even on other players. I don't think this thread can be reasonably described as "nothing but picking it apart and bitching." Some discussion of how things might work is helpful, both to players and to the admin designing it, who may want the input.

Untrue. I always want 1v1s more than anything else. Yet somehow when the opportunity arises, I get teamed. A lot. People can pretend like 1v1's do exist, but really it's only for the players that respect the thought of it. The problem there is that hardly anyone respects 1v1s because of the "I'll do anything to win" mentality. It's why people run around getting triple teamed over killing 1 person's mount. After that, it just becomes a battle of who can bring the most friends to this fight.

I can want to 1v1 someone all day every day, but if that person decided that they want to team me, then that's what's gonna happen. 

Seir

If you like team fights, then congratulations. Nothing has changed.

If you choose to take the harder route and practice, commit, and better your own individual talents, you get rewarded for it (as you should).

Regardless of what inclination you have towards combat, however, there is more of a thought process solo combat in Aetolia than there is in groups and that is true across all of IRE. I can go to any IRE game with the same mind frame of how to win a group fight: Bring as much passive AoE as possible, spam damage, hinder the target caller, bring the most people and then win. Of course, there's variance on those four priorities, but that's generally always the case when it comes down to it.

It takes more to be a solo combatant than a group combatant. All it takes to be an effective group combatant is a system and a web tattoo (and sometimes not even that if you're not a primary target). It takes practice, a good system, and commitment to be a good solo combatant. You can disagree with me all you like, but... that's the case.

Ilyon

It is rather offtopic here, but you really need to not talk like this about things that you so clearly have limited experience with - it just makes you look bad. Team strategy is a much more complex subject than you realise, while being much less affected by the class matchup than 1v1. That's why we like it.

Luna

Yeah, for all I know, the Sect might end up being great fun- I just think it's delusional to imagine that it is lack of mechanical support that prevents 1v1 combat from occurring. We already have one way to mechanically isolate yourself with one other player in a setting where noone can interfere- the arena. Anything else is always going to depend fundamentally on respect, common sense and unwritten rules.

Be polite and respectful to enemies. Open yourself to PK by getting bountied or carrying a HG artifact. Walk around the continent instead of hiding in a city. Ask for duels or spars on market. Take off your hood, stop using your chameleon power. Hop into the hunting grounds, if nothing else then to signal your availability for a 1v1 against anyone who might want to follow you in. Seek out people that you know will appreciate and honour a straight-up fight. Above all, log in and play.

Don't smacktalk, hurl abuse or insult people over shouts, channels or tells. Don't make yourself a rep for griefing, interfering in duels, or other behavior not conducive to getting good fights. Don't interrupt other people's 1v1s, yes that means stay out of the hunting grounds while there's two people inside.

To be blunt, if you're not getting the 1v1 you want, the most likely explanation is that you're either not doing much to make yourself available for solo fights between more or less evenly matched combatants, or that you've been acting in such a way that people don't trust you to duel in a fair or fun way. I don't think it's possible to :mechanics: your way effectively out of this- it's a question of common decency more than anything else.

Haven

Regardless of all that, I approve of anything that enhances and encourages 1v1 fighting. There's few things out there that feel as good as succeeding in a test of skill!

I thought FFA's were just that but over the years you learn quickly that for some strange reason people won't let them be true tests of skill. That's why I love the new Knockout and collapse features. I hope they become city bought privileges for the arena soon cause I'd host that bat guano frequently.

Alistaire

Tests of skill, really? Spamming the latest flavor of the month class/tactic until everyone dies so you can be the "Champion" is not a test of skill, dude. Sorry. 

And yes, you're just as aware as I am that the above statement will be a very large part of this whole thing.

Daingean

I dunno. I'm sort of excited that I have an omni char on both sides of the fence [that isn't Dain, because he'd never be in a secret anything], so that I can class hop / multiclass the 'winning' class and just [use] it until they nerf it, and change again, to keep my winnar status.

Oh, oops. I meant to think that, not post it.

Edit - This post has been brought to you by sarcasm. There is no way this will ever be anything but a battle of 'which class wins the easiest' and the person with 'that' class will be the top of the ladder. Pre-nerf, that would have been templar for spirit, and it's still currently carnifex for shadow. The only way that anyone else has a chance is if people with the 'best' class [here meaning the most broken] decide for some reason not to use it.

Edit2 - I'm still glad the mechanic is coming into play. Anything that sees teaming drop is awesome and good and wonderful, even if I doubt it'll be a fair system entirely because true balance doesn't exist.

Belakai

Daingean said:

I dunno. I'm sort of excited that I have an omni char on both sides of the fence [that isn't Dain, because he'd never be in a secret anything], so that I can class hop / multiclass the 'winning' class and just [use] it until they nerf it, and change again, to keep my winnar status.

Oh, oops. I meant to think that, not post it.

Edit - This post has been brought to you by sarcasm. There is no way this will ever be anything but a battle of 'which class wins the easiest' and the person with 'that' class will be the top of the ladder. Pre-nerf, that would have been templar for spirit, and it's still currently carnifex for shadow. The only way that anyone else has a chance is if people with the 'best' class [here meaning the most broken] decide for some reason not to use it.

Edit2 - I'm still glad the mechanic is coming into play. Anything that sees teaming drop is awesome and good and wonderful, even if I doubt it'll be a fair system entirely because true balance doesn't exist.

Daingean,

Thanks for your comment, although it seems particularly harsh towards a group of people who work quite a bit on making the game more fair and balanced.  Is balancing the game hard? Absolutely.  Do the members of the volunteer and paid staff strive towards making the game as balanced as possible?  Absolutely.

The original post was created to get productive feedback into the idea that we are developing.  It's hard for me to say whether or not what you say is just a gut reaction not based on facts, or if its based on experience. Unfortunately, I don't see you fighting 1v1 a lot.  And how it is worded seems like your typical forum comment that is unproductive, mean-spirited, and generally intended to tell people how awful the realm is.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that if you want people to listen to your thoughts about improvement of the realm, elevate the conversation rather than take the easy route and dismissing things out of hand because they are unfamiliar or unpalatable to you.  You're entitled to tell people who awful things are, but people are pretty used to that sort of post and don't pay much attention if they aren't backed up with fact or experience.

Orus

Sorry brah, can't hear you over the sound of taking the time to type out a post carefully choosing words to sound world weary and ironic.  Anyway, I gotta go put on my trucker hat and go do some performance art involving Buch's Baked beans. 


Daingean out.

(The idea sounds awesome.  Big ups to the administration for encouraging 1v1 outside of the Arena)

Belakai said:

Belakai

Orus said:

Sorry brah, can't hear you over the sound of taking the time to type out a post carefully choosing words to sound world weary and ironic.  Anyway, I gotta go put on my trucker hat and go do some performance art involving Buch's Baked beans. 


Daingean out.

(The idea sounds awesome.  Big ups to the administration for encouraging 1v1 outside of the Arena)

Belakai said:

Daingean,

Thanks for your comment, although it seems particularly harsh towards a group of people who work quite a bit on making the game more fair and balanced.  Is balancing the game hard? Absolutely.  Do the members of the volunteer and paid staff strive towards making the game as balanced as possible?  Absolutely.

The original post was created to get productive feedback into the idea that we are developing.  It's hard for me to say whether or not what you say is just a gut reaction not based on facts, or if its based on experience. Unfortunately, I don't see you fighting 1v1 a lot.  And how it is worded seems like your typical forum comment that is unproductive, mean-spirited, and generally intended to tell people how awful the realm is.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that if you want people to listen to your thoughts about improvement of the realm, elevate the conversation rather than take the easy route and dismissing things out of hand because they are unfamiliar or unpalatable to you.  You're entitled to tell people who awful things are, but people are pretty used to that sort of post and don't pay much attention if they aren't backed up with fact or experience.

Elevate the conversation applies to everyone! Not just the guy I happened to pick out from dozens of people who make similar posts...

Haven

@Daingean and @Alistaire:

This might require a new thread altogether but just how many broken classes do you guys think there are? I think it's more than a bit extreme and narrow minded to say that there will be no skill involved in winning this kind of tournament.

Alistaire

Not necessarily broken classes, but cheap tactics. Things like the old Carnifex epseth/epseth spam. There was no skill involved in it. There are classes that have access to that sort of tactic and people will use it to "win" rather than trying to come up with actual tactics and fighting with their heads. If not for things like that, I would think that the Sect has a good chance (Even if I don't particularly agree with the whole idea) of being just what everyone wants it to be.

Yes, I'm aware of the fact that our volunteers and admins do what they can to fix that sort of thing. No, that does not change the fact that people will find new ones and abuse them to win whatever the prize for being Sect Champion is. It all really falls back into what Luna was saying- This isn't a problem that can be fixed mechanically.

Ilyon

One thing that comes to mind - how will the skill and might/artifact difference be handled? Interest will not be there if everyone who is not an artifact-laden monster gets stomped into the ground.

Angwe

Coming as an unartied mid-tier combatant in a heavily artied Achaea, I can say that those who actually enjoy combat will likely just brush their shoulders off, search for new tactics and strategies that level the playing field and win or they will decide that its a lost cause fighting artepile021 and avoid said artepile. Its frustrating at times but even there skill > artifacts (up to a certain level) and the artifacts here are a LOT less ridic.

Seir

Ilyon said:

It is rather offtopic here, but you really need to not talk like this about things that you so clearly have limited experience with - it just makes you look bad. Team strategy is a much more complex subject than you realise, while being much less affected by the class matchup than 1v1. That's why we like it.

Pretty sure I know an awful lot about group combat in Aetolia and elsewhere. I've lead groups and both won and lost on that field. I can also say that I've won team fights with those very stratagems which only just proves it. We can fluff up group combat all day but it doesn't make much to succeed in it. It takes much more to be a solo combatant than a group combatant. I don't mean that as an insult, that is just simply just how it is in IRE.

As for Luna, I wholly agree with you that being respectful goes a long way but even so, it will never break people out of the mentality when they feel like they must do whatever it takes to win. My character has won and lost many times, utilizing his losses as an experience. Before you even played, he took the first loss in the war against Bloodloch as an enlightening experience as one to better himself despite dying constantly.

I will tell a story, however. I was pretty kind and respectful when I originally started player killing in Aetolia. In fact, I never intended to be involved with PK at all when I first came to Aetolia. I simply wanted the roleplay experience that I had heard so much about. I got involved because Ellenia, who prior to this incident I had no history with, attacked me randomly and bullied me because I was bashing the Lich Gardens. She claimed that the Infernal mobs at the entrance were loyal to the guild and called out when attacked. As a note, she was not a guilded Infernal so they would not have called out to her nor are they loyal to anyone when probed. I tried to ignore her, but every time I left Enorian, I was attacked and forced to run. Being fed up, I asked for help in the regards of a system so I could at least defend myself and was fortunate enough to have been given one. I left Enorian again and was attacked by Ellenia and won. She came back so angry that some 19 year old Sentinel beat her that she ended up dying six more times because she would not stop attacking me. Then we go on to the first war I had experienced with Bloodloch which, according to Mazzion, was brought on solely because Duiran was finally (for the first time in history) getting out of a slump and was on the rise and Mazzion wanted us to revert back to how we were.

I remained pretty respectful up until the point to where I was being attacked by a gang of people despite being invited under the pretense of a duel, I've seen novices jumped by individuals like Clouser on the crime that they were bashing the Torturer's Cavern, I've been insulted on numerous occasions in an IC medium where the insult was taken OOC and involved my father's heritage for being Jewish. More recently, I had people spam my shrunken head despite repeated requests to stop. I even requested one of the offenders to cease politely and was told to "lighten up", that they didn't care and that they were going to keep doing it and that it was my fault for having the artifact. Quite frankly, the PK'ers on the darkie side have done nothing to endear me in regards to sportsmanship over the last year, I don't regard many of them save two or three in a good light nor am I respectful of their talents because they've done nothing to encourage or endorse fair play, responsibility, or accountability for the actions for their character's actions or their player base on a whole. I realize that the lighter side has its share of players that have done this but I've played the game and have been villainized because of the simple fact that I've taken the time to practice my class and because I've beaten people. The last time I asked for a 1 v 1, the fight started as one but I was lied to again and a group of Bloodlochians came out to kill me.

Even when I was a liaison, I felt entirely on the defensive because I would deal with people on the other side that wanted to downgrade me and never were willing to come to a middle ground to compromise. When lemming was brought up for discussion, I put forward the suggestion that instead of deletion (which every darkie liaison was in support of), that we instead choose to double its proc rate. This was viewed as being completely irrational and as an inability to work with others because I ended up getting incredibly frustrated by the constant cries of "DELETE, DELETE, DELETE" despite my having supported numerous nerfs to stuff on my own side and including Sentinel. I wanted to nerf Charge spam way before Moirean started using it because I viewed it as lame.

While this may have gotten off track, these are all prime examples of why 1 v 1 has died out. Everyone has their own reasons of not trusting the other side on an IC or OOC level, players instinctively have a "never want to lose" mentality and most will do anything to win. Sorry, but I'm grateful for the Sect. Some mechanical enforcement of 1 v 1 will go a long way in helping me regain confidence in PvP again because I believe any opportunity of trust in the playerbase has long since gone out the window

Xarian

The thing is, 1v1 hasn't died out. I get quite a lot of it, I would guess that 30-40% of my fights are 1v1. 1v1 has only died out for people that other players have come to disrespect, for one reason or another. If you have a hard time getting 1v1 fights, it's probably a personal problem brought on by your actions as a player.

Daskalos

...well, damn. That's why I can't 1v1.

Seir

Xarian said:

The thing is, 1v1 hasn't died out. I get quite a lot of it, I would guess that 30-40% of my fights are 1v1. 1v1 has only died out for people that other players have come to disrespect, for one reason or another. If you have a hard time getting 1v1 fights, it's probably a personal problem brought on by your actions as a player.

Lucky you. Many of the players on our side are considerate enough to give 1 v 1's. In fact, seems like most of the people desiring them are on our side.

Unfortunately, I started getting teamed long before I started treating the other side of the player base with their own medicine so that isn't the case.

Alistaire

I like how every time Seir posts, it involves how horrible the entire dark side of the game is. Chill, dude.

Seir

Eh, don't get me wrong. There are a few people on that side that I respect and actively enjoy playing with. Tyrak immediately comes to mind.

Though there are a lot of people that have soured my view of that side and have largely acted immature by playing the game at the expense of other people, like the examples I previously gave.

Illikaal

Alistaire said:

Tests of skill, really? Spamming the latest flavor of the month class/tactic until everyone dies so you can be the "Champion" is not a test of skill, dude. Sorry. 

And yes, you're just as aware as I am that the above statement will be a very large part of this whole thing.

Well actually, the only time I've ever experienced such a thing is with Carnifex specifically spamming epseth and epteth combos just because they were so good. As much as people cried about Templars, I never really had much of an issue against them as far as vorpal/retribution goes. Flails though. Dem flails. Even now people are currently complaining about how OP shamans are when they don't even cure the basic affs that shamans give. It's just as comparable as claiming that monks are OP because you don't pre-restore or parry your limbs, and then get bbt'd to death. I really don't expect Teradrim to faceroll the crap out of everyone for very long. I can understand using the "I lost because I don't have the trigger lines" excuse after say, maybe the first or second fight. After that, there's only one of two conclusions that can be made. Your curing/offense is probably lacking and needs work, or there is something legitimately wrong with the class. As I said, the only time I personally have ever experienced that was with Carnifex, despite the incessant crying about vorpal/retribution. 

Aetolia combat is all about how quickly you can respond and adapt to new situations as they arise. Sometimes, there's just no way to deal with them. Usually, situations like this come up in groups. As far as the 1v1 aspect of adapting to combat goes, it's on a much more refined level. That's why I like 1v1 combat over group combat. Group combat is about "Oh hey. We can kai cripple/vivisect to instakill all the bitchez! Lets go!"(no more, thank god). 1v1 Combat is about, "Well, since this fatty of a Sentinel is abusing pre-restore to get quick v-locks on me, I can add in a setting to pre-restore my limbs when I use blackout on them to screw with their momentum. I can also ignore pre-restoring my torso since Sentinels don't benefit from it, but keep pre-restoration on for the rest of the limbs." No combatant who does nothing but group fight would ever be able to come up with things like that, because there would be absolutely no need to do it. People just like group fighting because it's much easier than 1v1s, imo. 

Haven

Ilyon said:

One thing that comes to mind - how will the skill and might/artifact difference be handled? Interest will not be there if everyone who is not an artifact-laden monster gets stomped into the ground.

Eh... I cannot decide if I agree with your concern or not simply because the Sect of Blades doesn't appear to be an organization that is meant for everyone. I get this kind of "best of the best" vibe from the post. So I'd expect the minimum to do well would be moderate knowledge of multiple classes and omni-trans at the very least.

With not so recent artifact changes (magic potence comes to mind as an example) I cannot say there are major instances where artifacts will trump skill anymore.

Seir

You don't need artifacts to be a good fighter. I managed to be decent without any for a long time as two classes. They're by no means necessary to beat the people with them. In some cases, like with Mage, they can be overwhelmingly good, but they're bearable.

Demarcus

Man, I am LATE to this party. I'm also naive. I'd like to think that people in this Sect would WANT to police themselves. If there is a clown among them, or a group of clowns, there would be enough "good" (little 'g', not big 'G') Sect members to just completely grief the living crap out of these clowns until these clowns cease and desist their clown ways, or quit the sect and preferrably the game because we don't need that crud here. This is probably just one giant wish and it won't happen.Coincidentally, I have about as much interest in PvP as I do about trains, so I don't care either way.

But, I also recognize it could go the other way, and the clowns could outnumber the "good" people, and it becomes a giant clown organization. Kind of like the CIJ. Except with PvP. And people in the CIJ are at least worth interacting with. So not like CIJ.