The Sect of Blades

Daskalos

You could put diminishing returns on people you fight more than once in terms of points gained.

Kiyotan

Kind of like how the sparring system currently works, ennit? 

In fact, that's pretty much what you're suggesting, isn't it? To make the sect like sparring except without the safety of the arena. It could work, I suppose, if we have a lot of people already participating in ranked spars. One look at the list shows that only 17 people have a score above the base 100. Makes me kind of concerned for the amount of participation in this Sect thing.

Slyphe

There will not be an immediate way to list all of the Sect members, due to the secrecy - sect members will only be able to see how many other sect members are online, and anonymously communicate over the sect org functions. You will have the option of making your status known publically, and in doing so, open yourself up to other sect members hunting you down, while being able to hunt said sect members yourself. Depending on how well this functions, we may make this both a permanent configuration (once public, always public), or make it mandatory beyond a certain rank. We'll have to see.

We are still working out the specifics, but it's likely that there will be a hardcoded duel function that will significantly increase the valor marks earned for the fight. Combined with caps and diminishing returns, it should prevent people from abusing the mechanics to settle personal vendettas as well as minimize abuse used to climb through the ranks.

Daskalos

I'm just not a fan of the open pk all the time aspect. I play the game for -all- aspects of the game, not just PK. This is a cool feature, but being open pk 24/7 just isn't appealing, because if I want to bash, I want to bash. If I'm hunting in Tiyen and another blade member attacks me, chances are I'm going to die because of the mob helping. That gives them easy points, and then they can sit in a city behind guards until another opportunity arises to rise through the ranks cheaply. In the interim, I'm sitting open all the time.

The problem I have with the open PK aspect of it is that you put the focus on -1- part of the game (PK) while simultaneously lessening the RP\Politics\Hunting parts of the game. Participating in all -4- is what keeps players interested in the game, and driving on. To use Belgarion as an example, he lives to PK. Templar changes happened and he's not playing until the next round comes out. A system like this -further- drives home the point on that one aspect, instead of engaging them in all aspects. People are going to want to advance in the Sect, that much is certain if they want the prize. I don't see why you have to be open PK to advance - make it so that advancing is nice enough and people will use the system.

Kiyotan

In those instances, you should consider nullifying the deathsight for those fights, or changing the names to 'anonymous.' Simple detective work can publicize Sect members who are appearing on deathsight for no other conceivable reason.

Slyphe

Like I said, we're going to have to work on the details, but being more prone to PK is going to be a necessary component of the system - having the consequences of joining the sect be opt-in won't realistically work to sustain the conflict. If someone finds that they're being forced into PK too often, they'll have the option of rescinding their membership without too harsh of a penalty, though presumably they joined the sect specifically so they COULD find more 1v1 conflict. The game already provides a number of safe zones, escape mechanics and ways to alert yourself to impending fights if you find yourself in a compromising state - that's part of the danger, and being able to fully toggle that defeats the purpose.

EDIT:

Kiyotan said:

In those instances, you should consider nullifying the deathsight for those fights, or changing the names to 'anonymous.' Simple detective work can publicize Sect members who are appearing on deathsight for no other conceivable reason.

Something in this vein is not a bad idea.

Daskalos

I guess my thought process is this:

I love 1v1 combat, and find it extremely rewarding.

I also love bashing.

I also love running my shops.

I have recently fallen in love with RP and this is what I do most of the time.

I (sometimes) love politics.

If I join the Sect, to -gain- the one thing that I have really been lacking in the last few RL years, I run the risk of -losing- the other 3 aspects of the game that I also enjoy. Do you see my point, there? To make this system really work, you need to find a way to make it encourage the 1v1 -without- diminishing the other aspects of the game.

Slyphe

That is an important part to consider, and the main reason the progression is going to be capped and the rewards mainly aesthetic and role-related. But removing the element of danger provided by join the sect would do as Kiyotan suggested, and essentially neuter the concept into a non-arena version of ranked sparring. While that has its own merits, the intent is to provide a constant level of danger to everyone involved - if we remove that aspect, my fear is that the return of 1v1 combat that is sorely craved simply won't happen. There has to be a risk involved, otherwise the system will largely remain as it is. If we remove the element of danger and increase the rewards to compensate, as suggested, then the chance of abuse becomes that much higher.

Simply put, there are already media in place for at-will PK, both through duels and sparring. The sect, and the benefits it provides, are largely going to exist for people who want combat beyond that - and that requires some level of danger.

Daskalos said:

My suggestion would then be something earlier, a 'not open pk' after you've been killed for being in the sect, a cooldown of some sort so to speak. So you're open, you get killed, then you're in a RL day cool off (so if you want to spend a day bashing, because you just spent 30cr on a chalice you can do so without being killed repeatedly during the day). The danger is still there, but then you get a modicum of safety afterwards to play the game how you want. If you want to keep in the PK aspect, just reject your protection. Once you've rejected the protection, you don't get another automatic cool off for 24 hours.

Something like this would not be a terrible idea. We will play around with some concepts and see if we can come up with a way to reduce your risk within a duration.

Daskalos

My suggestion would then be something earlier, a 'not open pk' after you've been killed for being in the sect, a cooldown of some sort so to speak. So you're open, you get killed, then you're in a RL day cool off (so if you want to spend a day bashing, because you just spent 30cr on a chalice you can do so without being killed repeatedly during the day). The danger is still there, but then you get a modicum of safety afterwards to play the game how you want. If you want to keep in the PK aspect, just reject your protection. Once you've rejected the protection, you don't get another automatic cool off for 24 hours.

Azrael

I do agree with the notation of a cooldown time, though 24 hours IMO is a bit excessive - I also think that if a timer were put into place that it should simply direct itself at the person that you just fought and not against the Sect as a whole. One fight every 24 hours just doesn't seem worthy enough for neither the amount of time they're spending coding the entire system, for our benefit, nor any sort of prize.

PS - Slyphe is awesome for quoting Dask's post 4 minutes before he made his post.

Daskalos

<quote>Simply put, there are already media in place for at-will PK, both through duels and sparring. The sect, and the benefits it provides, are largely going to exist for people who want combat beyond that - and that requires some level of danger.</quote>

One other comment, and I'll leave it alone for now

This doesn't exist now, not for all the players. Spars aren't real combat, no matter how real you want them to be. Things work differently in there and because supplies don't run out, 'who is the most prepared' doesn't come into play.

As for duels, once you hit a certain level of skill duels become scarce and practically non-existant. I've have 3 in the last 6 or 7 RL months, but as gods can't ignore shouts, you -know- I've asked for them MANY more times. The appeal of this system is giving me back part of the game that has been denied me out of player fear/need to win.

Daskalos

Azrael said:

I do agree with the notation of a cooldown time, though 24 hours IMO is a bit excessive - I also think that if a timer were put into place that it should simply direct itself at the person that you just fought and not against the Sect as a whole. One fight every 24 hours just doesn't seem worthy enough for neither the amount of time they're spending coding the entire system, for our benefit, nor any sort of prize.

I used 24 hours because that's the length of a chalice. Of course, if chalices would be made into 6 4 hour sips like other games have, I wouldn't want it to be as long.  The risk is fine (and let's be real, if I don't want to fight I can escape easily enough, between 3 sets of wings, allies delivering me, mudbot mapper, dash, gallop, burrow, fly... the list goes on. And I have a hood.

Nothing bugs me more than when you're in the middle of an RP event - especially one in which the gods have initiated it - and you end up getting ganked because you had a bounty. I'm afraid something like this is going to make participation in global events practically impossible.

'Oh, damn, Dask is trying to get the last piece to help rebuild Enorian'

'Yea, but that's not our event, why should we care?'

'Wait, isn't he in the Blade Sect? He is! So is XYZ - go kill him so he can't be in this event, itll be a funny troll, that guy's a douche'

'good idea!'

You say it won't happen, but it happens right now.

Haven

I love the idea. To address Daskalos' concerns, can we get an 'approach' command that pulls the victim and attacker into a mini-instance?

Example:

@Daskalos is bashing in Tiyen and making things explode with his super charged lightning. @Angwe sees a chance to gloriously rise through the rankings! And so Angwe goes to Tiyen and 'approach Daskalos' and after a short delay (so people can still Voltda or run away I guess [-( ) they're warped into a timed 5 room instance collapse (so traps and sniping and all that moving good stuff can still be utilized) of the same area.

Passing dusty portraits of Nazetu officers. (Tiyen Esityi.) (8580) becomes On the battlefield of Passing dusty portraits of Nazetu officers. (Tiyen Esityi.) (8580)

After 5 minutes of fighting the instance changes from a 5 room instance into a 3 room instance. After 10 minutes of fighting the instance changes from a 3 room instance into a 1 room instance.

The battlefield completely collapses ONLY when someone dies OR if both combatants agree to a draw.

Kiyotan

Again you're eliminating the possibility of jumping people by giving them ample warning, thus blunting the aspect of danger that I think Slyphe is trying to achieve. Further, 'approach' seems too much like 'challenge,' and I believe we're trying to pull this Sect concept away from mirroring the arena. I think a cooldown is probably easier to code and a lot less hassle for everyone. 

Lin

Please no to minimizing the battlefield, how else am I going to be a douche and start the fight with a mind print and lock already in place?

Haven

Kiyotan said:

Again you're eliminating the possibility of jumping people by giving them ample warning, thus blunting the aspect of danger that I think Slyphe is trying to achieve. Further, 'approach' seems too much like 'challenge,' and I believe we're trying to pull this Sect concept away from mirroring the arena. I think a cooldown is probably easier to code and a lot less hassle for everyone. 

There's nothing wrong with mirroring that aspect of the arena. In fact, I think the idea as a whole would work better as a spin-off of the arena both mechanically and lore-wise. Where is the honor or test of skill in jumping someone who is bashing/unprepared for a fight? In jumping someone at all?

The 'approach' would not and should not require both to agree to start the fight. So there is still the element of danger of being challenged and forced to a fight to the death at any point in time while also temporarily removing all outside elements (guards, aggressive NPCs, other players both friends and foe alike, etc). The delay also helps for instances of role-play/world events/something important where you are out in public and do not want to engage in Sect conflict and choose to run away for a loss. (I'd argue for the loss to not be as heavy as say...losing a fight but there should be a minor but a significant enough loss for turning down a Sect fight regularly.)

Aldric

Rule number one: You do not talk about the Sect of Blades.

Rule number two: You do not talk about the Sect of Blades.

Damonicus

@Aldric:Now we have to kill you since you told them the rules.

Alistaire

http://youtu.be/EAwWPadFsOA

Exodus

If you're engaged in combat with a mobile, and someone from the sect attacks you, we could auto pacify all non-player entities in the room so that mobs aren't going to ruin the 1v1. You can still be jumped while bashing, but you'll be at no additional disadvantage than being jumped normally, so long as you are deffed.

Malak

I think this is a great idea and I personally am absolutely fine with being Open PK at all times; it's already been said that there are more than enough options for people to dodge out as and when required.

Like the idea of a cooldown but 24 hours is way too long. I'd say 3-4 Aetolian days at the longest and restrict it only to the last Sect Member who killed you. So if Daskalos kills Malak he can't attack him (for sect-reasons) for another couple of hours, but anyone else would be free to.

Also, I might be overlooking something important here, but if the membership is closed and restricted-access, how will members know who they can kill?

Luna

I'm going to go ahead and be the resident grump who says that I find the idea of this sect boring and contrived. Edit: This isn't really an accurate representation of the point I was trying to convey. I explained it better in my second post.

It seems designed for a group of players that are very small in number, very vocal, and in my opinion, mostly responsible themselves for not finding the opportunities for 1v1 pvp they claim to covet.

Seir

Er. There are a lot of players that desire 1 v 1 combat, otherwise I don't think they would've bothered to code something together.

Also, there's no such thing as "being responsible for not being able to find 1v1 pvp opportunities" when it has been clearly demonstrated by both sides that most fights tend to turn into people jumping in for no good reason other than the fact that they can. It's time for people to be measured by the talent and time they put into learning other classes, countering them, and becoming individually talented instead of how much damage/hinder abilities we can spam on the target caller until they die. Team combat has gotten a lot of focus lately and it's good that we've now been looking at addressing something that had been dying as a result.

Illikaal

I wouldn't wanna 1v1 as a Carnifex either. I'd need an indorani by my side at all times for teh 1k impale/2200 damage pole wrench writhelocks. 

Lin

I'm not even a PvP enthusiast and I am very excited about joining the Sect. Detached from the game mechanics it's meant to encourage, I think it's just a fun idea, and I am going to be heavily pursuing the RP behind it.

Illikaal

First off, I love the concept of 1v1ing in general. If you personally don't want to 1v1, that's fine. Go back to your group peekays or RP or whatever it is that you do. 

But now you're giving me, someone who LOVES 1v1's like a fatty (Serrice) loves mangos, with mechanics that discourage that dastardly teaming? AND there's a reward for it? 

Shut up and take my money.

Edit: The reason I dislike super large teamfights in general is because there's no real skill behind it, when Aetolia is allegedly renowned for its complex combat system. Right now, it's who can spam the most single target DPS, AoE, and best crowd control abilities. Doing that takes no skill at all. It's just turning on your autobasher.

Edric

[quote]Edit: The reason I dislike super large teamfights in general is because there's no real skill behind it, when Aetolia is allegedly renowned for its complex combat system. Right now, it's who can spam the most single target DPS, AoE, and best crowd control abilities. Doing that takes no skill at all. It's just turning on your autobasher.[/quote]

It's why I love my bastard sword...

but as good as an Idea this is, I do feel it's just going to turn into a whole gank squad to kill whoever is in the Sect and open PK... Maybe to keep it 1v1 you have to (like with arena) 'sect challenge person duel' if he/she accepts whoever wins gets said points, but if person doesn't accept he/she loses a few points and other person gets a few points.. that way Admin can better track WHO really wants to be apart of the Sect and who just joined it to grief people....

Aldric

I'm not much of a combatant, but the logic and general sound being thrown around here now is no different than that that you hear when a new class is previewed.

I would at this point encourage people to wait until the system is actually released before making further judgement. As it stands, there's lots of negativity going on about something that our administration has obviously put time and effort into but has yet to even be seen.

Aetolia in particular is pretty well known for being somewhat unappreciative, and for complaining about things before complimenting them. Do remember that the people that come up with these things are doing so as volunteers; whining and complaining about things they've worked on during a simple preview of it certainly won't leave them very interested to preview things in the future, or even work on them to the same degree.

Damonicus

Mechanical or not, this is a great opportunity for us THE PLAYERS to make 1 vs 1 fun for everyone involved. The admin are working hard on something for us to have fun with and get a reward for learning your own class. I for one have never been a high tier pvp'er. More along the lines of you want me to hit what with what..ok gotcha. I am actually excited for this to come online, given the rp, the combat training, all aspects of this can be very beneficial. They already said they would watch this heavily and I for one think that if we get repeat offenders for things that should not happen, someone will get zapped. Plus I am sure this can help Liaisons as well as now there is going to be a ton of new logs in OWNED and many other things. Let's for once look at the up side of something happening for us players instead of worrying or griping. Seriously what is the worst that will happen. They remove the sect and everyone meets up at a lesser to go what am I supposed to do here again.

Raeche

Aldric said:

I'm not much of a combatant, but the logic and general sound being thrown around here now is no different than that that you hear when a new class is previewed.

I would at this point encourage people to wait until the system is actually released before making further judgement. As it stands, there's lots of negativity going on about something that our administration has obviously put time and effort into but has yet to even be seen.

Aetolia in particular is pretty well known for being somewhat unappreciative, and for complaining about things before complimenting them. Do remember that the people that come up with these things are doing so as volunteers; whining and complaining about things they've worked on during a simple preview of it certainly won't leave them very interested to preview things in the future, or even work on them to the same degree.

Just to echo Aldric's sentiment, this is a reminder to all you admin tyes that we appreciate the work you do - especially since most of you are volunteers (and even the paid staff aren't paid boatloads for their work). Thank you, and don't forget that we love what you're doing.