GENERAL shield issues

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  • IrruelIrruel Member Posts: 670 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm not debating whether particular abilities are OP or not - I'm just pointing out that the classes with passive curing (or in this case a resistance) are generally also the ones without a breaker.

    If you don't have a breaker, then it isn't fair to be vlocked unless seriously outclassed, because being vlocked without a breaker is death, right there and then.

    With RNG playing a role in vlocks for some classes, not to mention lag, then if these vlocks = death, it's OP. The balancing factor then, is that it is harder to vlock these classes to begin with.

    The classes that actively cure a vlock, have to be truelocked. There is no need to bother truelocking a shaman. Every need to bother truelocking a syssin. A truelock is difficult. Simple locking a shaman is difficult. Both are difficult. See where I'm going with that?


    Disclaimer:
    I'm not claiming that the 10% isn't too much, or that shrug, shed, rage, cleansing, whatever etc isn't too much. I'm pointing out the logic behind the attempted balance, because too many people judge it without recognising that the end goal when fighting classA is different to classB

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shamans RNG on the defense is balanced with their RNG on their offense as well. As far as hard hindering goes especially in regards with how it synergizes with a core offense, they sort of rely on "Luck" for lucky loki/random mentals / ent procs to get ANY sort of hindering. Unlike more active afflicting classes that just put out specifically what they want. Shamans tend to need that extra bit of buffer just to have time to press things until they get their lucky setup. Though shrugging a whole dwhisper is like a 1/100 chance, it can happen, RNG goes good and bad sometimes. If someone was going to go after shaman afffliction handling, I'd be inclined to shift the focus towards their active cures, which I would not be entirely against considering superfluous.
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    Ashmer
  • AshmerAshmer Barefoot Adventurer LifeMember Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aishia said:

    Though shrugging a whole dwhisper is like a 1/100 chance, it can happen, RNG goes good and bad sometimes. If someone was going to go after shaman afffliction handling, I'd be inclined to shift the focus towards their active cures, which I would not be entirely against considering superfluous.

    Elder Shaman isn't so much the issue as Panacea is. It's effectively a lockbreaker, with no cooldown and a very small number of afflictions (none that I've found) that stop it beyond disrupted. The unlimited turtling just sucks to play against.

    Elder Shaman is actually a really cool idea, and a great example of a defensive ability that isn't overbalanced/broken. RNG sure, but it's like a 10% chance and it tells you when it procs. Annoying when it lets them out of a lock? Sure. But it doesn't make them un-killable like Panacea/Luminary Cleanse/Syssin Shrug/Shapeshifter Shed spam does.

    The really annoying thing is Primality Equivalence, which cures two afflictions to transfer them to the target when boosted, but doesn't show on discernment, essentially resetting the fight unless it grabbed locking afflictions you can see were cured. It's the only ability in the game that I've seen that bypasses it and it annoys the hell out of me. (I could be wrong about it curing afflictions, but when I asked @Valingar he said it did, and the AB seems to indicate that it does.)

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  • OrusOrus Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
    Ashmer said:



    The really annoying thing is Primality Equivalence, which cures two afflictions to transfer them to the target when boosted, but doesn't show on discernment, essentially resetting the fight unless it grabbed locking afflictions you can see were cured. It's the only ability in the game that I've seen that bypasses it and it annoys the hell out of me. (I could be wrong about it curing afflictions, but when I asked @Valingar he said it did, and the AB seems to indicate that it does.)

    That doesn't sound like intended behaviour. Especially if it is the only one that does it. Has anyone bugged it? Or assuming that is intended, at least brought it up as a thing to potentially change in a liaison round?
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree about equivalence really, it's very powerful. It probably does need to be changed somehow. Panacea is stopped by tons of stuff, but I'm not really hugely argue-y about it in light of the other shaman stuff though either. (Last I checked para/breaks/prone/entangles any sort of technical prone all seems to stop panacea. Not mention lack of overgrowth in the room.)
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  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shamans do have that thing that lets them attack through double broken arms, not sure if that applies to Pancake but it probably does.
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  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2014
    I guess the only cavaet I can throw in the way of how equivalence works is, it DOES require energy, if you have a shaman very hindered or affed they probably can't use it. The only sneakyish part is they can use it with 1 broken arm(IF you're using the fetish that modifies primality abilities as such) but other general hinders should stop it. It really does sap the whole "energy" thing down, and effectively it can't be spammed. It probably need a change or an adjustment tho~ I'm not sure about Panacea all in all, besides putting a timer or something on it~.
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  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2014
    Edit: misread, thought she was talking about panacea

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  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought there were pancakes.
     
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  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No it only applies to abilites in primality, which panacea is not.
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  • RowenaRowena Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    Bit of a necro but I haven't been on in a while,

    Prae get hindered by a lot of things, Prae suffer from rebounding confusion and clumsiness / lethargy.

    Additionally you're using one venom every 3.2 seconds. The rest of it is mental and doesn't actually kill, it's just annoying.

    Damage is the only thing that saves the class as it puts out next to no physical afflictions yet relies on kelp to lock and any decent system will handle that. Damage as a route is viable but easy to mitigate and only really viable if you're artifacted and they're not or they're not seriously hindering you which most classes do.

    Overall Prae is a fairly weak class 1 v 1, it's just strong in team fights due to it's innate tankiness and front heavy offense.
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VAMember Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2014
    Rowena said:

    Bit of a necro but I haven't been on in a while,

    Prae get hindered by a lot of things, Prae suffer from rebounding confusion and clumsiness / lethargy.

    Additionally you're using one venom every 3.2 seconds. The rest of it is mental and doesn't actually kill, it's just annoying.

    image

    No single affliction, save voyria and/or sunlightallergy will kill a player. Ever. However, they are far more than just annoying. Take Impatience for example.

    Affliction: Impatience.
    Diagnose: impatient.
    Cure message: You are patient once again.

    Description:
    Prevents the FOCUS ability and MEDITATION. Decreases the efficiency of the mana elixir by half.

    Herb: Goldenseal. Slice: Liver.
    Salve: Nothing. Poultice: Nothing.
    Smoked: Nothing. Tincture: Nothing.
    Special: Nothing.

    Do you not realize that you HAVE to give your target impatience to lock them beyond a simple venom lock? This is a 'mental' affliction. A very important one which praenomen can pair with Stupidity, another important hindering/mana draining affliction. And that's just using their 'annoying' Mentis whispers. They also have the option of hitting you like a truck and giving you a THIRD affliction. All active. No other class can do this except Bloodborn.

    Edit: Forgot about Indifference.
    Affliction: Indifference.
    Diagnose: indifferent.
    Cure message: Your focus returns.
    Body part: Head.

    Description:
    You will be unable to eat or drink any consumables. Additionally doubles
    the mana cost of the FOCUS ability.

    Herb: Nothing. Slice: Nothing.
    Salve: Epidermal. Poultice: Oculi.
    Smoked: Nothing. Tincture: Nothing.
    Special: Nothing.
    Yes, you read that right. You have an 'annoying' anorexia which you can pair with Stupidity and bury with Indifference, further preventing your target from healing and requiring them to use up their mana even faster trying to cure this devastating mental stack and deal with the bleeding your ridiculous truck attacks are doing.
    Post edited by Angwe on
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  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2014
    You realize indifference is cured by a salve right, which means you won't ever stick it without slickness, which you won't ever stick without asthma, which oh hey that's a venom lock, which oh hey you can't do that with Mentis.

    As is a Praenomen cannot achieve a lock at all; they can stack a whole bunch of Mentis affs to no avail. Doesn't help them lock you. A Prae can stick every single herb-cured Mentis aff on you and as long as you are eating kelp before paresis they won't ever lock you. Which leaves damage as the only route viable to them, although Prae do have a ridiculous amount of damage (might just be the most damaging class in the game if you build it for that).

    It's the reason why Luminary was also a garbage class before they added hypochondria and lethargy to Chasten. Mental affs don't help you achieve a lock. Impatience helps hold a lock but it won't actually get you to one.
    Post edited by Ezalor on
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  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Angwe - Vomiting will kill you. Does good damage. Even more when paired with sensitivity. Camus, too, but only after multiple applications.
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  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VAMember Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Then slash with gecko. The point is, having an offense that pressures you on so many fronts and allows you to layer so many essential locking afflictions is by no means 'weak'. All the arguments I hear from those defending this class tend to come down to a lot of informal fallacies like where you, @Ezalor, point out some irrelevant bit of combat minutia to discredit the poster you're arguing with, or another class's issues are highlighted to shift attention off whatever problematic class was previously being discussed. Meanwhile, the same irrelevant or just plain wrong arguments in defense of classes like Bloodborn and Praenomen are rehashed ad nauseum. You're not fooling anyone and you are not clever.
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  • RowenaRowena Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2014
    By kill I obviously mean achieve a kill condition. You're not getting locked from whispers, you're not getting set up for an instant kill like Retribution or Reclamation. All the vampire is doing is putting a bunch of afflicts on you that can be ignored next to the ones that matter as they don't accomplish your death.

    Yes, Sensitivity and Vomiting can achieve kills outside of locks but Prae have nothing to stack over either them, so you can eat out of it every 3.2 seconds. If you're going to rely on having either of them stuck you might as well use Asthma and follow up with Slickness / Anorexia like a knight.

    The problem is Asthma on it's own at 3.2 can just be prioritized and cured straight off. The reliance on Asthma but only single afflicting Kelp at a relatively slow rate why Prae pretty much need to bash you to death. Having Fitness makes the Prae lock route a joke.

    If a Prae is killing you one vs. one it's because your system has bad curing priorities or they're artied to the teeth and you're not. In that case you might as well do what Dourif did and play Bloodborn instead and beatdown into Annihilate.

  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VAMember Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keep deflecting, m8.
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  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2014
    I'm not even sure what to say to you other than really, take a step back and learn how aff combat works. Once you learn why people go for herb stacks rather than smoke/salve ones and why it's a terrible decision to try to mix them without a lock come back and tell me just how stupid you feel. I'd explain it to you but I'm not sure you're capable of not being an idiot about it.
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  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VAMember Posts: 978 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dude, I know why it doesn't work on people with decent curing and a ORDER ENTOURAGE KILL trigger. I also know it worked on a hell of a lot of people for a ridiculously long time. Including, at least once, you yourself. You quickly fixed it and it never worked again.

    You put a lot of time and energy into Aetolian combat, a lot of time and energy into winning. Much more than I do. I can understand having some pride about it. I know you don't want that messed up.

    Anyway, we're derailing this thread.
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  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember, Guildmaster Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dem maths.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
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  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ain't no math never dun no good for nobudy.

    You just grab the stick and start whackin'. Feller'll die or they won't.


    IshinAshmerRowena
  • OrusOrus Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
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  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox Member Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2014
    Technically, you can land a shatter by taking advantage of blood curse and eq moves and then jab and single whisper after a resto app.

    There's a lot of counters to this ofc.
    Post edited by Serrice on
     
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