GENERAL shield issues

Riluo

After a lot of consideration, as well as testing with a wide variety of people, I have decided to start a thread that will hopefully bring attention to the recent liaison changes for the Bloodborn class. Whilst the vast majority were required to reduce the issues with the class, and I can respect that need for balance, it has unfortunately created a very new and ongoing issue for the class that requires addressing. Firstly I am not alone in this chain of thought either, in fact I have spoke to people on both sides of the game who all agree that this is a huge problem that needs looked at. So the key issue began with the removal of berserk from Bloodborn mentis, which has resulted in people merely turtling behind shield. I know that some people will be passive aggressive here and say, “Welcome to our issue” but that is not constructive.

Due to the removal of berserk, the use of sunder has become vastly more important for overcoming this problem. Indeed Bloodborn are a weapon class and have no rsl, so the fact is indisputable that our reliance on sunder is critical to combat:

Sunder (Corpus) Known: Yes
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This is a passive ability of great worth. Should you frenzy against a target who has shielded, your frenzied assault has a chance to shatter the shield.

Below is an example of sunder in action. As you can see in most cases, it is taking 4-8 hits before it strips shield, which causes the target to regain health/mana and clears our important afflictions we have spent a long period building. Because of this I am hoping @Oleis can please correct the sunder issue so that it is a 50/50 chance given the classes inability to overcome the issue at present. It was designed to be a 1 in 3, yet as can be seen this is not case.


Example one:
http://www.logsty.net/logs/YLsBG
Example Two:
http://www.logsty.net/logs/iGqqN
Example Three:
http://www.logsty.net/logs/zjjQK


All I ask is that people consider this issue with a open mind and not become overly insulting. If anyone has constructive feedback to share please do so.

Ilyon

You don't want to use Sunder, regardless on whether it's on a 33% or 50% chance. Get a hammer tattoo instead. Having to rely on that one sucks, yes, but it's the best option at present, and it's not as bad as it used to be, now that it's on a 2s equilibrium.

Riluo

Yeah I tested that but then you can not dwhisper, which puts you behind again as they continue to still shield over and over. Allowing them to just turtle away all the work and reset the fight. This is why Bloodborn need sunder to be tweaked so we can continue to at the very least attack. I mean we are a weapon class and yet this broken skill it is all we have. If berserk was a part of our arsenal I could understand not fixing sunder, but it is not so it is just pointless at the moment trying to compete. Hence the sudden drop in Bloodborn combatants.

Dourif

I agree, it's kind of pointless using the hammer tatt unless they're in annihilation range. When there are classes with passive shield breaks, i don't see why berserking was removed from Bloodborn's mentis.

Angwe

Ah, for some reason I thought Bloodborn could still frenzy. I agree that they should at least have an option that strips shield (without applying an affliction or damage) that allows dwhisper.

Edit: Clarity

Daskalos

@Ashmer still beats the pants off of me... it looks like you're just getting destroyed by RNG. 1 in 3 isn't a physical counter, it's a 33% chance. Try using a hammer and see what happens -- part of the reason Bloodborn lost berserking is that BB stack affs like a champ while also applying mana and health pressure. Most classes in the game have to choose which they want to do. Berserking made it impossible to turtle against a BB.

The issue isn't BB, IMO, but turtling as a whole. The same thing affects every class. Between shield, rebounding, lyre and active cures, turtling is crazy prolific, and it affects who you're fighting worse. As an example:

Sciomancers\Ascendril active heal skill cures 2 afflictions at a time, no cooldown. (Bloodboil)
Teradrim active heal skill cures 2 afflictions at a time, 10 second cooldown. (Absorb)
Vampire\Bloodborn active heal skill cures 2 afflictions at a time, 20 second cooldown. (Purify Blood)
Bloodborn additionally have Bloodmeld which throws one of your own afflictions back at you passively (while not curing it on the original)
Daru\Luminary have cleansing, which is 1 affliction (random), no cooldown.
Syssin have shrugging which lets them pick slickness\anorexia\asthma as an active cure. No cooldown.
Shamans have their skill which uses up grove energy but has no cooldown, so theoretically it can't be spammed too much but I've seen it fired a lot and would need to test.
Indorani have fool tarot which cures 2 afflictions (and I believe has no cooldown, haven't tested this one).
Templar don't have an active cure ability, but do have rage which is a free bellwort balance.
Cabalists don't have an active cure, but they do have leveling which is kind of freaky to fight against.
* This will cause you to share each others afflictions and level the playing field in combat. (but leaves it on the original)
Daru\Sentaari have mind push which I believe has no cooldown and lets you push a single affliction per balance.


Now add in classes with passive healing:
Cabalists (Oneness) -- stacks with purity
Luminary (Care) --- doesn't stack with purity.
Templar (Cleansing) --- stacks with purity.
-- Might of missed some, not sure.

The thing is, it's not Bloodborn that's the problem, is the turtle\active cures as a whole. As you can see, there's a wide disparity of healing available and when an opponent goes into turtle mode, there's really not much you can do about it, but at the same time, you practically have to turtle against some classes, such as Syssin, that have the ability to attack with a crazy high aff rate, can lock out multiple cures (focus, tree), can slow down your curing (Dissipiate, Void, Invasion, Abrasion) and now don't have stupidity slowing them down, which used to be the game plan. Against some classes, it is near impossible to play an affliction class if the other person doesn't want to die.

How do you balance affliction classes when the level of active curing and passive curing varies so much across the board? Not to pick on Syssin, but I've had a liaison literally tell me 'in current stance there's not really a way a Luminary should ever beat a decent Syssin'. And it's true.

I spar @Valingar a lot and he knows my frustration with his turtling -- I can be clearly winning a fight, and he'll effectively reset it by turtling. You're now having to deal with things like the rest of us have had to deal with things for a few years. Is it a problem? Yes, turtling is a problem. But it's not a Bloodborn specific problem and should be handled on a much wider scale so that, unlike before, it's not just one or two classes that can get past the turtling, but instead, a hard reset on a fight shouldn't be possible.

Also, @Dourif, passive shield breaks are a thing?! I can't think of any life side classes that have that (maybe Shaman? Haven't played overmuch with it).

Dourif

@Daskalos yeah i fight Kheoss and he can shield for 6 rounds no problem and cure up. I attempt to shield, i get hit by the passive shield breaker. TBH i don't see why they need that over every other class, but yeah that's for another thread.

Riluo

The issue with using hammer is you are worse of than with sunder as you can not afflict at all. This is an example of what people are doing now:

http://www.logsty.net/logs/nCGtV

Although at the end of it the point is the removal of berserk was to much and the weakness of sunder is very apparent.

Furtum

@Daskalos pmuch hit the nail on the head I think here, the issue isn't your aff rate or damage/mana pressure output, it's the entire idea of shield spamming. Turtling almost anything seems to have same result on any class. I enjoy the idea of an active defense, but I don't think anyone should be able to reset the fight if they have an unbroken arm and no par{esis|alysis}

Ezalor

The problem with Sunder is that at 33% chance and 3.5 second balance, it takes an average of 10.5 seconds to break the shield which is pretty much worthless. Hammer tattoo isn't really a viable solution either, especially with the long balance times of the BB attack - it means you aren't even guaranteed a combo after every hammer. You do get to dwhisper through it and have Mindsurge apply, but you're missing a third of the aff rate and all the damage and bleeding. It DID need a change - the ability to simultaneously dwhisper, apply mana damage, and apply berserk through shield made BB way too hard to slow down. I would rather see whisper rituals not work at all through shield but berserk to still be viable. Berserk itself may need of some adjustment (probably to make it so that when you are shielded it'll strip it but NOT proc the balance knock attack - the "optimal" solution while shielding is to shield, wait till it's broken, then shield again, rather than shield as soon as you get eq back, and berserk kinda unicorns all over this so it's doubly potent).

@Daskalos pretty much said what I think (except Indorani Fool Tarot has a 40s cooldown, not nothing). Turtling is way too prevalent right now and it's not only BB who suffer this isssue. The people upstairs do recognize this as an issue and it should be getting fixed soonish.

Shielding is a huge pain in the ass but tbh it's not as big of a problem as shed, shrug, fitness, no cooldown aff cures are for classes that must kill by lock. I actually went back to playing Bloodborn after a stint playing lock classes because I would much rather deal with endless shielding than endless no counter lockbreaks.

Amberlea

Maybe they should just delete shield, and all its class specific flavors. I mean, when is the time that you should legitimately use it that it isn't dirty in this way? Get primaried in a team fight is about it, that I can think of. Maybe make shielding a ylem reserves thing instead, so you can only do it a couple of times and then you run out.

Ezalor

Shielding's a legit strategy. There are some unbeatable aligning-of-stars circumstances where you simply have to shield to survive (old Praenomen being the biggest example of this before paresis change). It shouldn't, however, simply let you sit there and spam it to reset a fight at any point.

Jensen

Shielding is nice for ranged attacks, preventing ambushes, stopping a damage attack that would otherwise kill you, and preventing a variety of abilities that would either kill you or start you off in a fight severely disadvantaged. The unfortunate side to shielding is turtling.

Haven

Why not give shielding the fitness treatment in that the balance/equilibrium cost increase with each consecutive use within a certain time period?

Ezalor

That report was attempted but subsequently rejected in the last liaison round. Some are in favour of giving every class their own viable method of shieldbreaking, others are in favour of nerfing shields altogether. It kind of created an impasse of sorts, with a lot of reports being "only consider this if xxxx is rejected." It'd be a nice discussion to have actually as to which method is preferable - do keep in mind that if shields themselves are nerfed overall, many of the existing effective shieldbreakers likely need a look as well.

Ilyon

Ezalor said:

do keep in mind that if shields themselves are nerfed overall, many of the existing effective shieldbreakers likely need a look as well.

Yup, that's exactly why I'm in the "in favour of giving every class their own viable method of shieldbreaking" group - it's the least intrusive solution.

Daskalos

@Ezalor - do they have another healing thing? I remember fighting @Xiuhcoatl at NoT about 6 months ago and he just sat there and spammed a cure on himself over and over again. MAybe it was Priestess and it was health he was healing, was so far back I'm probably misremembering.

Ezalor

Ah yeah, Priestess/Magician also have no cooldown and heal something like 25%, so Indorani are immune to damage more or less. That's going to have to be looked at too.

Daskalos

My personal solution?

Move fitness to survival.
Standardize all cures to 1 cure per 10 seconds, active.
Make all passive curing no longer stack with purity and tick at the same rate.
Making rebounding not come up behind shielding (this is part of the issue in that for classes with a single raze, rebound + shield = 2 rounds out of action).
Put a cooldown on shielding of 6 seconds.

Now, the problem with this is that right now limb based classes have an advantage over affliction classes in that shielding is about the only way to slow down a limb break offense since they can now hit through paresis. But, if we change the way breaks hinder to make it more similar to paresis this might balance things out. Different discussion.

Ezalor

2 per 10 is actually my preference, and passive curing is fine in some cases. For example, Lumis get passive curing but their aff cure is only 1 instead of 2, Templars get amazing passive curing but they have no active aff cure. Shamans would need to be looked at since they get two different 2 aff cures, aff shrugging, aff immunity, and if that change were to go through access to fitness as well.

Fitness also needs some sort of counter. Right now you can fitness through 4 broken limbs, prone, paralyzed, locked. Same with shrug.

Daskalos

I don't like two cures at once because, as an example, Lumy offense is incredibly fragile. To get the kill, you have to get the truelock, which means burying asthma behind 2 affs and
then hellsight. In a two cure situation, if you nab impatience, hellsight, or any of the kelp affs you've effectively set a Luminary back to the first step. I'm sure other classes are in the same boat.

2 for 10 would actually be a -buff- for some classes, which I think is a step in the wrong direction. I think you really have to standardize across the board if you're going to truly balance the classes. If Templars keep passive that stacks, no active. If they don't, then yea. But I strongly believe that we should standardize across the board, and fitness shouldn't be possibly while paralyzed, either. And ugh shrug\shed.

Ezalor

It's also random, so it does open up other strategies like going for more herb affs rather than locking ASAP to negate the effectiveness of the aff cures. 1 per 10 might make aff classes a little too hard to beat, especially if a fitness nerf were to come too. When I tried vs Feichin and the Teradrim version (2 per 10s, stopped by paralysis) I was able to get through it eventually but I was also playing Templar which affs faster than most classes, so it'd have to go through some testing.

Aishia

I can't help but think, that bloodborn may not be nerfed ENOUGH. Nutso damage, crazy aff pressure. Bloodmeld/passive bleeding/anxieties. Shield might be their only real weakness.

Dourif

Seriously coming from a class with passive shield break, ability to do 2k damage plus omen 3.5k, passive indifference, passive curing, unstoppable insta and a insta that works like old judge with healing rite. Really?

Oleis

Dourif said:

Seriously coming from a class with passive shield break, ability to do 2k damage plus omen 3.5k, passive indifference, passive curing, unstoppable insta and a insta that works like old judge with healing rite. Really?

In the future, feel free to substitute "I'm not sure I agree."

ETA: I don't want you to think I'm coming off as randomly sassy, or that I'm protective of a liaison. I said that specifically because your point is off-topic and your tone is intended to escalate the situation. Rather than attacking the credibility of someone with whom you disagree, focus on the problem at hand.

Valingar

BB are not overnerfed. Are they weaker than before? Sure. Are they still very strong? Without a question. They're even leading killstats atm by a comfortable margin. The loneliness change and the lower mindburrow CD were actually fairly good buffs to them - running to cure used to be the traditional counter to BB pressure, but loneliness makes that nearly impossible outside tumbling. Their damage and bleeding is still huge and their affrate some of the highest in the game. This especially shines in groups.

Shield problems aren't exclusive to them. I mean, I definitely get your frustration on this count. But maybe a quarter of the classes can deal with shield spam well. Templar, Teradrim and Shaman are pretty much it, as far as reliably dealing with shield goes. Potentially Indorani with hound, maybe Prae if they stuck berserking, I have no idea. Syssin, if they got ahead a little bit, before said shield spam.

To some extent, though, shielding is a necessary mechanic. Some classes build momentum much faster than others. Some classes have random factors (bloodmeld comes to mind) that when it procs to its users advantage at an inopportune time, you're dead if you don't shield. In a 2vs1 you need that shield once a while.

That said, I've advocated some downgrades to shielding, definitely agree that it's a general annoyance for one versus one combat. A cooldown (~8s - twice the eq use of shield) or rising eq costs on shielding for repeated uses would be my preference.

Ilyon

Shamans indeed have their own problems, but that's for a different discussion. Passive/active affliction curing is definitely going to be a big topic during the next liaison round, that much is certain. I'm sure the specifics will be discussed to death both on liaison and on public forums.

Anyway, active/passive curing is going to need more tweaks than just a 10s (or whatever number) standardization, as the fact that some classes possess these (sometimes multiples) and others don't in itself presents an issue. Moving fitness into survival gets brought up a lot recently - it's an interesting possibility, but it would need to be accompanied by a substantial weakening of other forms of passive/active curing, especially on classes that currently do not possess the Fitness ability.

Draiman

I still want to see someone pick up BB and do as well with it as anyone else who is currently using the class without a phial (300cr), a crown (850cr), and at least a level 2 weapon rune (400cr).

Amberlea

I think one of the reasons there may be resistance to giving each class their own flavor of shield breaking is because that would make the hammer tattoo completely useless, as well as take away something from the classes that do have a way to break shield otherwise.

Aishia

Still not about Bloodborn. Come on, bb.

Kaeus

Draiman said:

I still want to see someone pick up BB and do as well with it as anyone else who is currently using the class without a phial (300cr), a crown (850cr), and at least a level 2 weapon rune (400cr).

To be fair, they cannot reasonably balance any class completely around the unartifacted version. Though I can certainly see having an artifact required is frustrating and I know they've attempted to lessen that gap in the past with similar scenarios. I do think that trying to compete at the very top level in every scenario without artifacts is more than likely not going to happen, as the less the margin of benefit the harder it becomes to justify their costs.

I definitely agree with the idea of making turtling less effective in the long run. Unfortunately with a lot of the classes, a single good "block" of any sort (shield, double cure, whatever) is enough to effectively reset the offense of their enemy. What I do not enjoy though is the idea that shield can be spammed over and over until the end of time. A fitness like solution would certainly discourage that, as eventually their offense would outpace the cost added to the fact that they are doing nothing offensively to slow you down. It would not prevent the occasional 2-3 round Shield to reset a fight, and realistically you could still have a fight never get anywhere if the cooldown reset in a reasonable time.