A perfectly civilized topic about Holywars

Rashar

@rowena there was significant, significant buildup to that. RP wise, involving Gods and stolen followers etc. And ultimately, it wasn't a decision made by a mortal.

Xenia

Iosyne said:

Xenia said:

This holywar rage should probably become its own thread

Space created.

I love the topic name

Iosyne

@Rashar @Furtum‌ - it looks as though you were posting your comments at the same time the thread was being split. It isn't possible to move comments on this board unfortunately. If you want to re-post them here I can delete them from Ankyrean Anguish.

All - I would like to take the time to remind everyone to heed the moderator policy of no personal attacks on this forum.

Stathan

Throwing the recent Holy War out the window.

Dasks idea about alliances could technically help swing the balance of Order Wars because the lighter side of things is so spread out. I also threw an idea up where 1 person can defile and they get jumped into an alternate room (not even sure if this is possible) and 1 person can go in to stop them. Gives the 1v1 aspect a turn at the wheel to stop defiling and still gives the gank squad weight because they defend the area outside at the actual shrine to see if their side or the other side comes out. And yeah, even if you win you're likely to get pubstomped when you come out but hey, it's an option to even the playing field.

Ishin

I'm not really sure what all the qq is about, really.

You didn't want to fight? Surrender.

Does surrender suck? Yeah sure it does, nobody likes surrendering. You don't want to keep getting your ass beat by Iosians, though? Surrender.

You don't want to surrender? Deal with getting your ass beat.

I mean, you guys say there wasn't some RP or something built up to this order war.

Begin---

Rashar graffiti'd my city.

There was some interaction of some type between Moirean/Slyphe and Moirean/Rashar, maybe even Moirean/Whoever.

NOT TO MENTION THE AGGRO PIRATES @SLYPHE SENT IN TO SPINESREACH.

Not that I'm hating on you for that, @Slyphe‌bro. It was neat, I enjoyed kiting them around so that noobs didn't get smoked, luls.

The end result is that it finished up in an order war, which Team @Iosyne won.

END---

I am, honestly, not even going to touch on @Daskalos' post because it's just completely ridiculous. Any time someone attacks one of the classes on his side, they're all just fine, nothing's wrong with them, they're balanced and peachy. Ours are all the broken ones, OP, yada yada yada. Same old rap, same old beat, and it's still as old as it was ten years ago when I first started playing...except back then, it was actually TRUE.

Let's not tell him about how good Team @Slyphe was doing before the numbers swung too far in Team @Iosyne's favor. I was really enjoying the deathsights, and it really, really made me pine that I couldn't be involved in something like that.

Really, guys, the biggest difference in @Slyphe's team and @Iosyne's team isn't something really ridiculous like, OMFG CLASSES OP, it's that most of us darkies have been team-fighting for almost ever, we know HOW to fight these fights. You guys qq movement skills and all this other stuff? Bro I can use GRACE and mount my rojalli, and it MIGHT take me 4-5 seconds to run from like, Alaqsii down to like, the Beryl Sea. Maybe up to 6-7 if I allow for some lag. So what if we can fling a tarot and a few seconds later just pop into some other place. Still have to outd, still have to fling, still have to wait for the effect to happen. Meanwhile, you guys could be riding your STEEDS OF DETH and on the way to wreck things.

Rashar

Slyphe's attack with sharks was after the war was declared and -because- she used Spines to justify it.

Sort of done giving excuses or reasons.. ultimately, yeah. We lost, as predicted. I do get irritated when Moirean tries to say it's because we didn't use shrine powers or Ish says it's bc you've been fighting together forever.

Iosyne numbers >>> Sly numbers. The numbers of fighters is even more skewed. Period.

We had moments of ass whipping. Like 3 hours of a 12 hour period where we weren't outnumbered by a great deal. Even then it was pretty much even numbeds, so eh.


As for the whole reason and buildup, eh. I seem to recall a certain situation happening a while back with some god raising he'll in spinesreach over like a baby being killed or some such ( wasn't there, just going off tidbits ). That would be far more justification to declare a war than some paint that goes away in a day or two.

Except it wasn't declared because a holy war should be a big damn deal. Or I assume. I could easily be wrong on that particular situation, again having not participated.

Ishin

I'm the only guy in Severn's order who even plays very actively AND fights. I'm not up for 1v8 holy war bro, lol.

It was also the act of one Ishin ripping out Khenarkha's throat then eating part of her corpse, which oddly enough included a Damariel-baby that had been planted inside her by grody God-created facehuggers. Then, her head was sent to @Damariel as a fuck you.

It more or less had the desired effect, though truth be told Ishin hadn't counted on him trying to raid Spinesreach, but it worked out in the end.

It's something me and big daddy @Damariel handled between the two of us, more or less. It actually had some -really- disastrous(in his opinion) consequences for Ishin, and for @Damariel too, IC. Why go to a holy war? They'd both lost something they loved more than anything. It was a loss all around, imo, and there just wasn't a need to lose more.

THAT'S why it didn't go to a holy war.

Haven

Lighters need a way to attract more fighters and or motivate their current population to participate and pick up the sword. The fighter disparity will continue to exist until they figure that out.

Benedicto

It's over now anyway. Really upset that it started on Sunday night, I spend all day at work today going, "EEEEE PKS WHEN I GET HOME!" to then get home and it's over. Either way, we can smear some ointment on our arses, pull our pants up and go about trying to bury this whole ordeal somewhere deep within our minds.

Ingram

Ishin said:

It's something me and big daddy @Damariel handled between the two of us, more or less. It actually had some -really- disastrous(in his opinion) consequences for Ishin, and for @Damariel too, IC. Why go to a holy war?

THAT'S why it didn't go to a holy war.

BECAUSE RP < MECHANICS, ISHIN! ALWAYS! ALWAYS!

Get with the program, god.

Rashar

@ingram, that was toz' argument, not mine.

@ishin everything you just said.... was exactly what I've been saying?

What if Dam had just been like fuck this, Holy War!

Boom, replace some Pk and some rp with day(s) of noncoms getting ganked, and then when you lose ( which you would have ) a week or two of not rping or doing shit except raising shrines.

My whole point was that conflict, even between Orders ( which, again. This really just -wasnt-) does not have to equal holywar. Which, to be quite frank, is exactly why my 'prank' was against someone else, and I don't try to push RP with Iosyne people. @chakrasul, @ashmer & co at least are down to rp and limit the nonsense once the fun dies out.

Ishin

@Rashar - Had @Damariel been like "You know what, Ishin...fuck you." and whipped out a holy war, I'd have told the others to stay back and let me handle it, because it was something of my own making. I'd have fought as well as I could, and done the best I could, but I'd have handled my shit and tried not to bitch about it much.

I mean, I had a hand in it being done, so it'd have been my responsibility in seeing it to its conclusion. I may have even simply surrendered the holy war, rather than jeopardize the others revealing who they are. Lots of little things. I think the Iosians are also pretty down to RP, but I mean, I guess I -could- be biased since they're on the same side as me. And most of them are pretty responsible people, from what I can tell. I mean...just saying.

I have to admit that I'm not really sure how what you're saying is what I said, though. It sounded pretty different to me. Logic it to me?

Rashar

Try telling Sly order to stay out of a war, bro. Bunch of freakin' troopers, man.

You said to man up and deal with the war if you started it, essentially. I'm still on my phone so hard to quote..

my point was that we -didnt- start a war. I played a prank (?) By painting words into the air about a Goddess and a person, and another person made it into a holy war with a different and completely unrelated Goddess. (Sorry, but what direct connection does Ios have with Tina, the Corrupt which is obviously a reference to Chak, or Spinesreach?

Then, after multiple times of talking about how things don't have to lead to holy war and can be handled with rp and lesser scale conflicts, you gave an example of exactly the type of stuff I was talking about and pushing for.

We don't disagree on much, and we're not really disagreeing here either.

Please be aware that I'm not trying to sound like I'm bitching, whining, or mad we lost. I love the Pk, and I don't think anyone will accuse me of being a bad sport about dying. Hell, I'm happy with the way most of it went. My last post on the subject was going to be the thank you I wrote to everyone involved in a meaningful way ( even Moi ). I only commented because Trager said something about them not finishing it and Moi came back with some valid and the one answer that bothered me, which was that she wanted to give everyone a chance. This all devolved from there, heh.

Toz

Ingram said:

Ishin said:

It's something me and big daddy @Damariel handled between the two of us, more or less. It actually had some -really- disastrous(in his opinion) consequences for Ishin, and for @Damariel too, IC. Why go to a holy war?

THAT'S why it didn't go to a holy war.

BECAUSE RP < MECHANICS, ISHIN! ALWAYS! ALWAYS!

Get with the program, god.

Mechanics are > RP. Only reason the player lost there is because they let themselves lose. If either player was unwilling to lose? They wouldn't have 'lost'. Only mechanically can you force another player to have to concede something ICly.

Ingram

Liked I've said before, it depends on what you play the game for, Toz.

Rashar

Agreed, Ingram.

I'm more than willing to lose if the situation is right. If you're a level 100 dude who I know can't fight, doesn't fight, doesn't have artifacts, etc, I'm not going to RP you manhandling me because you want to emote fight better than your real fighting. Sorry, but you really -aren't- a more dangerous person, and you're going to have to prove it otherwise with some pretty solid RP or PK.

The same holds true if say I were to get into it with Ezalor via emotes or just general interaction. (Or, shit. Half the mud.) That does have basis in mechanics.

If there is a question, I'll either play it by ear or take it -to- mechanics. Mechanics are definitely the end all, if you choose to go that route. Hard to argue with a face full of death sequence, but I'm more than happy to RP with people who just don't -enjoy- combat.

That being said, I'm not above some lowbie who RPs dropping a noose around my neck at the right time or has some friends getting the drop on me for the sake of RP.

Bottom line in my book is that while mechanics ultimately > emote, it can be fun both ways. The problem is, people do not like to lose when they can just type engage and win. *shrug*

Toz

Rashar said:

The problem is, people do not like to lose.

This, pretty much, is why I would love a massive, far-reaching combat system with long-term implications.

...Or fishing.

Riluo

Wow this got out of control fast.

I keep hearing about this graffiti stuff in Spines, but it was also at Bloodloch too. Talking about how Slyphe's order was going to wipe out the undead. That within itself is a challenge to Riluo to fight. As a result he brought it up with his order asking if we should "teach" them the meaning of humility through slaughter for declaring their god the harbinger of war.

In terms of strategies much like what Ezalor stated, we were very organised as we openly debate and work on our skills as a team regularly. For example I am your standard mid-tier fighter and yet I get as much respect from my team as any of the top-tier fighters. When I play my lifer it is the complete opposite and I get told to read a scroll or figure it out on my own. This sort of thing needs to be looked at as it drives away players.

Also on a personal level what was funny was when Slyphe killing me for a shout directed at his order members. (Mind you it was a copy of war and peace) I did not mind as it was funny and well timed on his part and a little deserved. However, the end result was to only to increase Riluo's desire to take down his shrines. Even more so as he was second in command of the order once upon a time when He was a she and got removed. Therefore this was a great opportunity to get some rp revenge for the insult of his long service.

Daskalos

Who the heck ever told you to read a scroll?

Rashar

The message outside BL wasnt me, fwiw. And still had nothing to do with Ios or Moi.

Moirean

You are mistaking cause with catalyst. I agree that it would be silly to go to war solely because of a piece of graffiti, but it's also silly to pretend that things happen in a vacuum. It seems like the biggest issue you have - and this mindset has spread to others - is this belief that I did this war for my own, individual and maybe OOC reasons, just to attack you or something, and that's silly. Did WWI happen just because of Ferdinand's assassination? No. His death was the catalyst for it, churning up lots of issues that were already there. Maybe it would have been nicer for me to put on a big RP show to really hammer home the underlying reasons, but isn't that just as artificial and forcing RP as what you guys seem to think happened?

Alice

Just from an observing point-of-view: It is hard to believe any form of legitimate RP that would justify something that created this large of a conflict would be considered 'artificial and forcing'. I say this simply under the assumption that a lot of the 'complaints' (for lack of a better word) are sounding like a misunderstanding of intention due to there being little-to-no communication to begin with.

Moirean

If we made the decision to war but then sat down and said ok, guys, we need to wait and do some big group RP first before we declare - that's entirely artificial. That's doing RP as a show, just to be able to claim there was RP done. I do RP like that a lot with my city and guild, and I think it certainly has a place and a point, but it's tiring, not really suited to Iosyne's order and, in this situation, I think a bit pointless. Would people honestly have been happier if that had happened? They seem to be claiming they would be, but I expect that even if there was months of RP and buildup, people would find another reason to be upset - escape skills, team numbers, Ezalor's AI, whatever - because in the end it's conflict and conflict always makes people upset.

Draiman

Duanathar is best escape skill.

Slyphe

The tl;dr is this:

War. War never changes.

Aarbrok

There are also lyrics that go a bit like this...

"War, what is it good for. Absolutely Nothing."

Rashar

Nobody misunderstood any intentions, heh.

I don't know how I can say it any simpler, man. Twice in a row you have wielded an Order as a weapon in retaliation for something that had -nothing- to do with that Order.

And its fine. Its over. You did what you wanted. Playing by my own logic that I use all the time, where everyone should be fair pk all day because shit, we are -evil murderers-, an Order like that doesn't even -need- justification. You are evil, carnage and war rah rah. Sweet. Just say it. "WE WANT BLOOD GON' KILL YOU GOODIES" would honestly make more sense than declaring a holy war with a religion that wasn't targeted or involved -either time- in what you used for a reason. You're justifying it with stuff that simply doesn't make sense.

More logical would be Spinesreach hunting me over and over for 'vandalizing', bountying, enemying. Or -any- reaction from the people involved. ( Chak, Tina ).

Just stop trying to make sense of it, because it -was- senseless. Which is sort of what Iosyne likes, right? Carnage and violence for the sake of carnage and violence. Cool. Go with that, maybe?

And since I keep getting piled on by Moirean fans through different avenues, and since twice now you've complained about people accusing you of doing it for OOC reasons...

You definitely sent me a -tell- talking about how it was just an excuse because the Order was chomping at the bit lately. So uh.. yeah. Find a better one, and people won't comment. Or probably they will.

Just saying. I am going to start declaring war on Severn every time Ishin shouts something I don't like. He's going to spend a week building shrines every time he does something ICly to upset one of my order members. ( Not really, bro. Easy, now. )

The next time an undead says something bad about Slyphe, man. Ivoln shrines are going to -get it-.

( Not really. But the basis would be equally [not]valid. And I, as a mortal with an active God, would not declare a war without being instructed to.)

Ishin

@Rashar - Better warm up the f-sticks then bro. I can go for days, if you know what I mean.

Riluo

I think the point still stands that it was not Moirean necessarily either, it was also Riluo, Ezalor and others who decided on it. I even complained on the order long before Moirean did. In fact I got uppity about Slyphe's order overstepping recently on many channels. So in this case correlation does not imply causation. I think this needs to be considered please as it is getting a bit witch hunty now.

In terms of the war itself it was hard to watch when you see the other team being morally defeated, when you know deep down it sucks. I just hope more fun things can be added in the form of orderwar instances or something fun to make it better for both parties.

@Daskalos I am not going to name drop on the person(s), but it was in the Enoiran.

Damonicus

I have always wanted to see a holy war done in the way of Troy, bring out the champions. they fight it out, end of war.