A perfectly civilized topic about Holywars

Brayden

Just a little while ago, people were using "real life" to excuse why they missed the Delosian Duels, in order to complain about Daskalos's possession and use of the duelist rapier. (I went out with my boyfriend/girlfriend and so on).

And now people are using that excuse to explain why they're not winning the Order war... (Most of us have to work and so on).

I think my rage (or disappointment, more like) is the transparency and immaturity of this behavior. It's a game, so please stop trying to make the winners feel bad about themselves just because you don't like to lose.

Moirean

Oh, I was never complaining about Daskalos having the rapier. If I had it, I'd be using it just like he is, and I don't see anything wrong with what he does with it. I was just being random. I really liked seeing Godzilla. It was so good.

Rashar

Sigh... this is exactly what I wanted to avoid.


@moirean I think you declared for a silly reason, for the second time in a row. Sadly, this is a better reason than the last one, but what's done is done. Beyond you, I don't blame you for anything.


You found Kerryn. Every. Time. Before the numbers got somewhere close to even, we didn't have anyone who could be at a shrine for more than roughly thirty seconds before multiples of you would show up. I said hood as an arbitrary random term for 'sneaky artifact thingies', so my bad I guess. Even numbers means you still send 1 1 to everyone to disrupt defiling, and most of ours are not duelists. Going to lose those.


The comment made was because of your comment about wanting to give us time to get everyone unvolved. That sure made it seem like you said 'Hey let's not tap this and get some more fights.'


Trager is probably just bitter because he stayed up all night fighting a two person war. My assumption. I just woke up.


@toz we can surrender. I wanted to put up a fight, prove that during the hours we have even numbers we can hold our own, and let people get some fights. With us being this outmatched it shouldn't have been necessary. It was 20% shrines down to 3% shrines down when I went to sleep, heh. It is what it is. Ooc knowing something is ridiculous doesn't make it easy to icly throw in the towel when you belong to the god of not giving the fuck up. I did that with the last one and got -so- much grief from a few members of the Order, and I did it for just this reason. Except then we were missing Aki and Val, and I was button smashing Lycan combat without a clue. So yeah..


Sorry for typos, I'm on my phone.

Trager

Pardon me, good sir, but this logical nonsense you speak of is most certainly not allowed here!

(I keed, but very good point nonetheless.)

EDIT: Directed at @Brayden, screw that @Rashar guy to all hell.

Phoenecia

There's a difference between the Delosian Duel, which is an event that can be easily missed like Iron Epicurean can be, and wars, which can span several days, and hinge on people being around for hours on end to move troops like in the old war system or defile shrines. If you have school or work but someone on one side doesn't, it CAN skew the balance, and that's a lot of time lost, at which point its almost impossible to catch up. Both war systems heavily favored whoever had tons of time, or who could deprive themselves of sleep the longest, or who had the most people who could play during off-peak hours when no one was around.

Eleanor

As someone not involved in any of this, it sure is interesting how people are all WE HAVE NO CONFLICT and then when there's conflict they immediately go THIS CONFLICT SUCKS.

Ingram

As someone who's not involved in this, this is a really stupid argument largely conducted childishly.

It's.. such an easy task to act like an adult, and walk away from the computer if you're mad. -Especially- over this stuff. There's a difference between venting your frustrations or having an argument and acting like a shit-head. Try to use basic discernment and common sense to avoid the latter, it'll benefit everyone.

Toz

And hey. If you don't like conflict over stupid, childish things, you can always just not do those things in the first place. No random trouble-causing, no war. Seems simple?

Areka

If it's a matter of "Don't do anything that could incite some form for conflict RP if you won't want a war," that's...p. lame Then there's no point to any conflict if -everything- is just going to lead to a war. "You called me X over a guild matter I'm going to holywar you" is not a particularly rational/reasonable avenue of conflict, especially one that involves so many other people and impacts their roleplay and gameplay.

Edit: There's just so many other avenues that RP can be taken that war seems to be a kneejerk response to things which both mitigates the weight of war as well as a rather flippant mindset to other conflict. While I recognize that yes, this is an impasse battle of dueling 'your conflict doesn't fit into what we want as conflict' and no real right or wrong in that, it seems a bit of a waste from my p.o.v.

Phoenecia

That part, I can agree on. Poke a grizzly, you deserve what's coming. But then again, this isn't the first time someone's started a war over something dumb. For example, Slyphe's grotto thing? THAT'S a good reason to go to war over. Insults and painted words that disappear after about a month that you can just enemy or PK the offender for and be done with it? Seems a little more frivolous. Edit: also, all the frustration, at least on my end, isn't about conflict, but the fact that it's not being done WELL. If you're going to declare war over something, it had better be damn important.

Rashar

Peer. I taunted someone else. I even said her name in the damn message. Just saying.


Fairly certain Chakrasul, Tina, and Ashmer have their own big boy pants. And hey, I'm not even mad. Moirean was being Moirean. Sweet deal. I'm just saying, @toz, by that regard I should declare holy war on anyone who shouts at anyone if I feel it was relatively insulting to Slyphe or his ways.


And pretty sure we can handle or match any other Order besides Iosyne, so that'd be ridiculous, right? Probably not, because you're all busy rationalize get this in your heads.

Bottom line guys, it was fun. Got the Order together, made things exciting. Then it wasn't fun, and fun for the Order > winning. In the end I went OOC for the sake of not making the day/evening/next day terrible for the people and just surrendered. You win, you big savage animals you. Let's be done, yeah?

Toz

Well, lemme put it this way so it fits the theme of the thread - rant form, go.

Currently, the game pushes you to an extreme. You either do nothing or you go to mechanics, because nothing else is permanent. So let's take an example scenario, and I'm gonna borrow @Rashar because he seems like he likes attention.

Rashar shouts that my hammer's tiny. I have a few options here, really - I mean, let's take as many options as we can.
-Ignore him (mature option, but doesn't really do anything for my wounded pride/other people laughing at me)
-I can shout something witty back. Like that I'll drown him in the kiddie pool. (Oo, sick burn. Now I look clever!)
-I can go kill him (hey, it's hard to argue that. Smashed him in the head, my hammer big enough now?)
-I can issue him. Because issuing people is fun for the whole family
-I can quit playing the game. FOREVER.

So uh, let's trim a few. I'm not gonna quit the game forever, and an issue would probably be dismissed (and I like my 90% win rate on issues too much to risk it). That leaves me with *drumroll*....3 choices.

So, first option. He 'wins' in that he makes me look silly/stupid/whatever for a bit. Life goes on, but really nothing interesting/of note happens after that. Unless he decides to shout again - and why not? It worked fine last time. There's really no incentive for him to NOT keep pushing things, especially if he's mad at me. Maybe I stole candy from his baby.

Second option, well. This one is 'fun', because now he's going to shout something back. Then I'm going to. 3000 phoenix hearts/bullseyes later, @Eleanor is dead of alcohol poisoning because 'coward' got shouted 4,051 times in 30 minutes. And nobody wants to see that. Plus? Nobody really cares - and by the time you add in all the people shouting that nobody cares, or trying to be witty/whatever (COME AT ME BRO), it's a whole lot of pointless, stupid noise.

Third option, I pk him. That'll shut him up, maybe - it makes me look big and bad, makes him look pretty silly, and it's generally the 'best' option for me. If nothing else, it's the ONLY option for me where I win, so long as I succeed in doing it. There's no 'subterfuge', there's no 'do x, y, z later' - it's a pain NOW, and I can't really recall ANY time that someone has successfully done something to me that wasn't pking me that was actually a pain in the butt for me ICly for any period of time. They usually either kill me, or just *shakefist* and tell me I'll rue the day.

So what's the tl;dr? Our conflict systems aren't really there, best option is to use what IS there whenever someone bothers you, at all, unless you plan on ignoring it. Not something you want to ignore? Go nuclear. Something pointless? Ignore. Everything else is pointless/a headache/makes Eleanor drink.

Rashar

For the record, I am entirely open to take any RP route you want to use to fix a conflict. We can fight, we can emote, we can do whatever. There are options if you're interested. Dunno. Rashar has been kidnapped before, yeah? Play it out, man.


Also.. it'd be much more realistic if Toz got a bunch of buddies around and beat up Rashar and all his buddies for shouting that your hammer was small. Except he wouldn't, because Rash doesn't ever really lie and I'm pretty sure Toz doesn't have a small hammer. Not declaring a crusade.


Also. Moireans bff just accused me of wanting attention. Snix.

Toz

Rashar said:

Also. Moireans bff just accused me of wanting attention. Snix.

I said you seem to like attention! Judging from some of the conversations lately, I don't quite think Moi does - but hey, people are unicorns. You were a convenient example target. Mechanics trumps RP, always will. And without much else to do in the way of conflict...*twiddle*.

Plus, it was brought up awhile ago about how there's no way to 'get back' at a God for doing stuff/an Order for antagonizing, and the vast majority of the people telling us to hush kept pointing to Order wars. Got what you asked for, I guess?

Rashar

Not really, no. All good man. It's a game. I'm not mad at anybody here.

Ezalor

Just from my side of things, I did try to end the war ASAP since I'm on the East Coast and those were ungodly hours. The first four hours were kinda fun with fights, from what I saw our Order was massively more mobile than Slyphe's which probably made the numbers look like more than they were. We were pathfindering, shrine traveling, using lockets, Empressing each other, ganksquad chilling in Deathcaves, etc. Basically it meant that the bulk of our team could come group at a moment's notice and roll to anyone we saw. We'd have the Order members go defile by themselves while I led the Congregants in a ganksquad to pick off all of Slyphe's solo defilers, then once the Slyphe PK group came together all our Order members that were defiling would join the squad for a moment to fight then back to their shrines as soon as it was over. I noticed that the people who were attempting to defile on the Slyphe side never actually grouped when teamfights were happening which would have evened out the numbers there. I also tried to pick off anyone that was alone to prevent enemy grouping. The biggest difference in that part of the war, IMO, was that I was leading our group and had Deathcaves while Valingar (I think?) was leading the other group and did not have caves or wings.

As for feeling like prolonging the war unnecessarily, defiling is just sooooo slow. We didn't have that many actual Order members around in the "quiet" period and a lot of the ones that were, me included, stopped to get some much needed sleep when the fighting died down. Killstats is also a clean sweep for Slyphians so it definitely wasn't -that- lopsided!

I have no idea what this war was over but I was on board with it since Iosyne and Slyphe seemed pretty evenly matched, which was refreshing to consider after about a year of just being way bigger than everyone else. Promised to be an actual war and not just bullying.

Rashar

Worth noting that's the second war an Order rep didn't even know the reason for.

Ezalor

Well a war was discussed over Order channel and pretty much received unanimous support this time. While the reasons may have been unclear this definitely wasn't a one person rogue war so putting all the blame/hate on Moirean isn't fair. Jusified or not we all agreed to do it so there's blame to spread. ICly any Iosyne Order member should be chomping at the bits for a war and OOCly I was totally cool with it since, as I said, it looked to be an even war.

Rashar

I was being an ass, there.

The people who know why it started know the deal. It's all gravy and really not this big a deal, so I think I'm done here.

Aishia

Haters gunna hate.

Daskalos

I think the issue is that all the PK'ers are more or less attracted to Iosyne (stereotypical evil, yay!) with a few outliers (Ivoln, Chak). Add in that the playerbase of Shadow is generally bigger than that of Light, the Light side's fighters are more spread out. Honestly, Iosyne's order has gotten so big that no one wants to fight them. It's just not fun for the other side 10 times out of 10. Add in far superior ranged abilities (doppleganger, the ability to pit a shrine being defiled, et cetera) and you've got a skill shift that favors the side that already has larger numbers. Then add in all the ridiculous ways they can escape... man. I wouldn't want to fight one and I love PK. But that's just me -- maybe this thread can be split to one on Holy Wars?

Haven

Must we discuss this again?

Daskalos

Just give me order alliances and we'll have ONE GIANT HOLYWAR TO END THEM ALL.

Xenia

This holywar rage should probably become its own thread -- I have some responses to all these things, that are not rage related nor defending anything said here.

What I want to discuss is this:
As a player, should we sometimes make choices that might result in our characters/orgs losing their conflicts for the sake of trying to facilitate balance to a system that doesn't account the sort of imbalances that exist?

As I am reading through these posts, I'm thinking to myself, oh, perhaps we should have called a cease fire, or maybe as players we should recognize that we need to make some concessions to make it fun all around. Go to bed and let them do their thing-- yes that will result in bigger losses and possible risk us even losing more than intended, but hey, what fun is it to steamroll anyway?

I mean when I would look at the numbers or shrines lost vs what we'd taken, I had the initial reaction of yeah, we're doing good, and then thinking, man, they're not doing so well, I feel bad for them, it's probably not fun and in their shoes, I'd just fuck off.

I liked the fights that I participated in, where it was Riluo, Moirean, Stridor and myself vs Trager, Valingar, Jamie, Akimoto (and sometimes others but not always). Those were fun.

Something I wish, that there was some cross RP result of these fights. IC and OOC, I had barely an understanding as to why this fight got started. At the same time, was like, cool, we're going to have a chance to do some conflict fighting that isn't a lesser.

Rashar

On a whole separate note as far as conflicts go, it is entirely possible to have a few small scale fights over shrines and what not. We did it with Ashmer a couple times, @arbre started some of it once.


All or nothing is an excuse to act a certain way, not a fact of life. And mechanics don't -have- to > rp. Sure, they can, and will. But there are many many people in this game that I've found will just RP, or will temper the 'mechanics' with rp.


Sure if somebody is like haha, your emote is funny I'm going to do what I want, then hey. Do what you have to. People say we want conflict but bitch about it, and it's the all or nothing attitude that leads to that. Plenty of times I've done stuff and asked the rest of the Order or whatever Org not to dogpile. It can work both ways, too.

Ishin

You get put in jail for graffiti IRL.

I think an order war for graffiti IG isn't too bad.

So much ineffectual rage, though. It sustains me. Feed me, Seymours. Feed me.

On a different note, I rage at how I had to go afk during this most recent lesser. Go fuck yourself, work. I wanted to snipe

Mariena

I did not know what I was doing at any point during this holy war. I showed up and died real well though! I even did 'pray to sanctify' and made one of our own shrines grow. That was pretty cool. Then I had to go to sleep again because I was still in super hives + benedryl land.

^My impressions of the whole war.

Rowena

Phoenecia said:

People don't want to fight an order war for dumb, insignificant reasons, which is what most people seem to see it as.

So.... what about that time shortly after we got a new Chakrasul player and the order had like... four members and Slyphe declared war on Chakrasul just for being Chakrasul?

Iosyne

Xenia said:

This holywar rage should probably become its own thread

Space created.

Furtum

Iosyne said:

Xenia said:

This holywar rage should probably become its own thread

Space created.

Yeah but you ninja mod'd or I ninja posted and got left out mid thread relocation. We were... ON THE SAME PAGE.

...I'll show myself out