Class dispensing

Xiuhcoatl

I and I believe many others like the idea that each class had a clone of it essentially with a bit different RP as to the purpose/reason behind the class, but in total it was just a copy/pastarino of another class. 

I might have been by myself, but the thought that more new guilds showing up and being manned was impossible. There's just not enough people. I thought they'd be given by NPC's which would be pretty RP neutral everything. That way everyone can get what class they want in one form or another. 

Let's be 100% serious here. You can't trust the playerbase to elect people that don't have their heads lodged up their proverbial rooty tooties. You can't. You have personal biases, successful campaigns, lack of better options, so forth and so on for the reason/excuse. Now, some people have it just a short distance in. A quick cavity search will find the person's skull and you can return it back to the regular place. Some people are like way up there. I mean, to the moon. No cavity search will find that. You'll need to go deep sea diving to get that. Like journey to the center of the earth deep sea kinda diving. I mean, those things are gone. There's no retrieving them. They get guild head and into a black hole it goes. If they want to, they can close off a class from the game for a long period of time. Sometimes indefinitely without administrative assistance. 

The point of that paragraph being: Should those people be allowed to stop a player from gaining a class that the player wants to enjoy? 

In my mind no, they shouldn't. Forever whatever RP reason, sure you can't be a part of their guild/they don't want you in it. So let's think a bit and make a class just like it, thematically different, and boom here you go. Another class that the player can enjoy without the individual guild or player suffering. Furthermore the guild system doesn't suffer because you're not increasing the number of guilds. Just the classes offered.

This also solves the problem of RP conflicting with classes. For the extreme Let's say Enorian wanted to rock vampire classes. So let's give them a very similar class and eliminate some of the dumber features of vampires. The entire taking damage and afflictions from the sun should stop when players reach level 80 with all other RP things that affect combat. We kill two birds with one stone. Vampires aren't stupid. Vampire class opened to everyone.

That's my like 50 bucks on the entire concept which can be summed on as: You can't trust people and shouldn't force people to trust each other. 

Sarita

So I've been out of the loop a bit with having surgery last month, but the only person I know of recently who was denied the class was for perfectly IC reasons. If you're denied the class, chances are good that you'd have to do something to try and prove your atonement for whatever the issue was for EITHER joining the guild or getting apprenticed. There have only been two people who joined the guild who weren't newbies since I've been getting better, and neither was a Carnifex first. You can let me know with a PM who/what the problem was if you really want. Aside from that, I may be biased since I know the Teradrim have been working on figuring out ways to make being apprenticed to the guild easier without detracting from the RP and lore of the guild.

Where I do agree with some people in this thread is the notion that neutral classes can and should have ways to get class to everyone, just in ways that don't force the guilds to necessarily abandon their current positions and niches in the game. I vaguely remember someone saying somewhere that there will be a light-specific form of the Syssin class that make it easier and presumably uphold the RP of that side of the game while still allowing people to enjoy those types of skills. I think it would take a lot of pressure off of the neutral guilds if both sides had something like that. Where side-specific classes are concerned though, I'm more inclined to say that people who wanted to get apprenticed shouldn't expect to get every class they want just by asking. Admin are preventing guilds for abusing their power to grant class arbitrarily and have come down on guilds that make it too difficult to reach GR 3, but even still, the people in the guilds are expected to make some effort to get there - that's been the norm for as long as I've played the game. I don't consider it unreasonable for people to have some expectations for IC reasons to meet in order to get apprenticed. The Teradrim don't like apprenticing people who have had their skills before, but abandoned them to get cured and go to Enorian, the Carnifex won't apprentice people from certain vampire Houses, I wouldn't expect Duiran guilds to apprentice people who have habits of burning down forests, etc.

Teani

Multiclass was supposed to open up and not make the guilds tied around the skills so much. This, in turn, would make it very possible for the Spirit side to actually create a guild that is a "light" version of the Syssin. Say... the Sentinels, who are a bit sneaky at least, masking and all that. Just like a Shadow-aligned guild could angle their RP to be more of a dark monastery.

However, since the handing out of skills are still tied to the guilds, and people are still somewhat rooted in this old form of RP (and some guilds have the skills meshed tightly with the lore), it will take a lot of effort to turn from previous RP to the new thing. I still think it's possible though. I just requires people to want the change to be made and not hold on too tightly to traditions.

For example, Carnifex are already playing out a military organization with savage brutes, and Templars are the light side equivalent of a military force of sorts. I doubt either of them would really need to depend on a certain skillset for their people to feel like they belong in the organization. (Especially since we all know the Carnifex skillset is broken and few use it anyway)

If more guilds could turn to this kind of thinking, finding their niches outside the scope of skills, I think the narrowing down of organizations would be an easier thing to accomplish.

Edited to add: As for gaining class, I agree with previously mentioned comments: If you've made a unicorns of yourself, expect to have to go through a lot of effort to remedy this before getting what you want. There's almost always a way to RP it out.

Sarkis

The Sentaari skill-set is, yes, indeed, neutral.

 However the RP, the central premise about which the entire game has been built around (that's right, the game is about RP last I checked), for the Sentaari is unambiguous regarding its stance over "dark" and especially "undead" joining the guild. The guild itself is ancient, remembers it's looooong history, and is very strongly RP orientated. Simply passing out the skill-set to people who have no interest in any of those things seems ludicrous. If you want a neutral "dark" skill-set, go for the Syssin. And I'd point out, in game, the Sentaari only hunt down people who give out the class without approval, not those who were apprenticed. If you want the skill set or an excuse to learn it, you will probably need to devise an effective means by which it was attained through IC RP. Looking for an OOC excuse to get it seems not only lame, but defeats the premise of the game and the effort necessary to get the class. No one really approaches me or anyone else and tries to sort out RP that would be acceptable means of attaining the class. Since Sentaari ethical training is strong, other means than bribes might be necessary, like theft, coercion, or hell...having a family member who trained you. I'd be happy to facilitate that sort of scenario or any other that seems plausible. But I don't facilitate things like "I want your skills because they're cool." That doesn't appeal to my character and it doesn't make sense RP-wise. You may as well ask Moirean to give up a grudge or Daru to not try to set you on fire for killing allied villagers. It just doesn't happen.

Aetolia doesn't have the player base to support an Achaea style resolution for classes as it is, and trying to break up the neutral skilled guilds will only weaken the RP in the game and disenfranchise a decent sized portion of the player-base.

Moirean

There's no need to be rude. I posted supporting your right to RP not wanting to give class out.

Jensen

50 posts since I left the airport, where is this going?

Arbre

To hell in a handbasket.

Exodus

Daskalos said:

I would point out that I hold the Syssin class. Let me repeat that. I hold the Syssin class. Anyone that knows my history with Spinesreach should know that's not possible. And yet, I got it, by someone who is still in Spinesreach. There are always RP motives, things to exploit. I don't use the class but I gathered it so I could still have venom after Sentinels lost toxins. 

What to say about this...  you're one foot in now.

/inguilds

Moirean

Daskalos nearly beat Noxume for GM nearly a decade ago. He's had more than a foot in it for years now.

Exodus

Anyone who thinks anyone other than Noxume is doing the beating is sorely (see what I did there) mistaken.

Lin

Aww now I miss her.

Moirean

Actually my bad. It was YOU Exodus!

http://www.aetolia.com/node/55611?page=293#comment-316545

Exodus

Daskalos may be Daskalos, but he's no Exodus.

Moirean

You still lost that election. >_>

Exodus

Got more votes than Daskalos. Boom.

Lin

Right! I think we can stick a fork in this one.

Lin

Open for business again. Just remember to keep it constructive and not derail like me and a few other dumbos did.

Arbre

Tethers were not originally part of multiclassing.  They were brought in because there was a problem in.. Spinesreach? with some lighter classes, Luminary, I think.  It completely upset combat balance, and so that's how the admin shut that down.

Moirean

There was class compatibility which was essentially the same concept as tethers but with more loopholes. The intent to not let stuff hop sides was there from the start.

Arbre

That's right, I forgot about that one.

Xavin

Arbre said:

That's right, I forgot about that one.

There were a bunch of problematic class combinations cropping up. Some of the incompatibilities made absolutely no sense and some of the compatibilities made just as little. All the while you had people on both sides with classes that shouldn't have been accepted, though it was more blatant in Spines and Bloodloch.

Moirean

Yeah, to me it seems more like it was design oversight, versus them wanting us to mix the skills each side had. *Stare Ishin*

Alexina

With class compability, you could have any number of classes that did not clash and be a member of any city (within reasons, of course). Right now, a person with the Sentinel class will -never- be able to become a citizen of Spinesreach, which used to be possible in the past. These transitions were not uncommon when people joined new cities -- chosing a new class and guild would happen after they had settled in (barring things like vampires in pro-life cities or luminaries/daru/paladins in Bloodloch and things like that).

I -think- there were people with Paladin class in Spinesreach (Phoenecia?, or maybe someone else?). Teradrim in Duiran (Brynn?). There are other examples. These people had the chance to join a new city and still retain class.

Xavin

Eh. It wasn't just Ishin. there were several people in Bloodloch and Spines running around with life-side classes. And when it came up on the forums that it was happening, lifers basically got told 'suck it up, it's your choice to not allow our classes', when it's a pretty strongly reenforced part of Duiran and Enorian's roleplay to not allow the other side's classes.

Moirean

Yeah, I know I was bummed when it happened because it meant I had to ditch Sentinel when I sidehopped  - but from the admin standpoint it makes complete sense. Having to balance around outlying instances like that means that either they have to make things a long more bland and reskinned for each side, or they have to devote an inordinate amount of time to deal with rare situations or they just let crazy unforeseen imbalances stay.

Jensen

I understand that from a pk balance standpoint, but it'd be fun to play a corrupt or fallen light/life class.  Or embrace the study of earth, death, or scio elements while being a living member of Duiran.

I know that it can't happen because it'd easily get abused, just saying it'd be fun.

Areka

I'm going to be a broken record, but if skills -reflected- that you're corrupt and there was a reasonable cost from straying from what the training is for, I think more orgs would be willing to open up as well as it would both provide legitimacy to the guilds and some really interesting roleplay. 

Alexina

Areka said:

I'm going to be a broken record, but if skills -reflected- that you're corrupt and there was a reasonable cost from straying from what the training is for, I think more orgs would be willing to open up as well as it would both provide legitimacy to the guilds and some really interesting roleplay. 

This is a great idea.

Irruel

Perhaps factions will allow that kind of corrupted version of a class to exist? The occasional rogue doesn't hurt the game, if played well. Being a corrupted templar in spinesreach isn't going to break the game - and not being able to multiclass any of your new side's classes is a fair negative.

Areka

Just would need to actually be corrupted and work alongside the lore and intentions of the classes (classes which are given to -guilds that have ideals and purpose- for them to use in their work). 

It would have to come with constraints, a corrupted Templar in Spinesreach would not be as effective on calling on righteousness and the skills deriving from the Triad because they've strayed and have lost touch with that/aren't using it to that purpose, by their own volition. Then we'll get the arguments of 'but I paid for it I should have it without any limitations or constraints', which is another can of worms, though.  

It's why I wish people would chill and wait until we see how the new stuff with new lycans turns out, it's a great trial run and would at least be instructive for how future class handling could be approached.