Class dispensing

Xavin

Honestly @Haven, part of me wonders if this isn't because people who are enemied to a guild are having trouble getting that guild's class. The way I look at it is that the difficulties people in that situation encounter are directly tied to their past choices. Sure, maybe they could lie about changing or whatever. But they've still done a task or paid gold out to the people they've wronged. They've still had to put in a modicum of effort to roleplay BSing the members of whatever org to get them to give out class. And if they choose to go back to their own ways, their actions will bite them in the ass again.

Ultimately, as a player you are not outright entitled to hold every class on your side of the game, especially if you have a history of screwing over/with any of those orgs specifically. If a character has acted against a guild and earned an enemy status with them, they should have to put in the effort to get that fixed before they can gain a class that they didn't already have access to.

Edit: And keep in mind that automating multiclass is NOT the same as allowing people to graduate from novicehood in their guild or implementing quests to achieve full class/member status in a guild. Nothing is preventing you from enjoying the game with a single class. Nor do most orgs make it difficult for people who haven't wronged their guild to gain an additional class. If some org or another is making it too hard, the admin can and should step in, like in @Moirean's example.

Serrice

Daskalos said:

Ifa guild is making it unreasonably hard for people on theirown side to get class, such as with Moirean's example,then perhaps the admin should look at it. Ask anyone withLuminary class how hard it was to get it, and they'll tell you the same thing: Just Ask. As long as you're not a guild\city enemy, you're pretty much getting the class.

I think that's entitlement speaking. I don't see any issue with a guild making it difficult -- or even impossible -- to apprentice people. And according to whose standards of reasonable?

Xavin

I feel like if a guild is making it so that people have to quit their existing guild to pick up multiclass, there's a problem.

Alexina

My view on multiclassing may be a bit skewed, but here goes:

• If a person has the skills of a specific guild, it does not affect the guild, its members, or that guild's city as a whole in any way at all. The guild's and its members' roleplay will not be lessened, or even impacted, unless they chose choose to make it so.
  
• If a person has the skills of a specific guild, it enriches that particular character in terms of playerkilling, bashing, and roleplay potential. The character may create plotline arcs to further define herself and her role in the world (researching demonology and the chaos plane, executing various acts of espionage in phase, studying the prime elements and how they interact with shadow/spirit and so on and so forth).

I just think that people that say 'I don't want other people to have my skills' are selfish, particularly when that other person might have chosen the guild they believe they fit best in and now wants to experience other facets of the game. Multiclassing was a great addition to the game but for some reason, certain people can not take advantage of it in the way they had hoped.

Xavin

The counter to that argument, though, is that if they have made choices to alienate themselves from a guild on one character, absolutely nothing is stopping them from making an alt to experience that class, or working to resolve the problems that their own actions have caused for them. If a character has a history of being antagonistic towards a guild, why should that guild turn around at the drop of a hat and say 'oh, sure, we'll teach you our abilities and you can go right back to being a jerk to us'? That's the thing. It sounds like people in this thread that are arguing for classes to be a commodity that anyone can just take from an npc as long as they're on the appropriate tether are disregarding the role play that likely goes into decisions about class.

Alexina

It seems like people are getting caught up on details. 'Why should a guild teach someone that is antagonistic towards them?' A solution could be that anyone who mastered a class can teach it; suddenly, guilds no longer have monopoly on class and there would be no roleplay implications for letting people learn the class. Any arguments that begins with 'this does not make sense IC' can be resolved in a way that makes sense in character, without really affecting the way guilds currently operate.

I suppose there is the conversation about guilds having monopoly on class and whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, and then there is the conversation about multiclass restriction and whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. The example I already posted is just one easy way to divorce guilds from class and instead let guilds be just that, namely guilds. An assocation that gathers people with similar interests around a common goal. The Templar guild would still be the Templar guild, they would be Knights in shining armour ready to step up and defend the innocent, even if a change was implemented that allowed anyone with the Templar class (even those outside the guild) to apprentice people. If Beelzebabe the psychotic word for female dogs from Duiran suddenly found a mentor that trained her in using weapons, blessings, and bladefire, the Templars would still be able to perform their Knightings, they would still be able to rally against the Bloodloch infestation, they would still be able to have jousting tournaments. Beelzebabe, on the other hand, is now enjoying the game a whole lot more.

Asking people to create a completely new character with the investment that follows (time, money, energy) is pretty selfish, too. Although I do idle a fair bit, my character is up at 570 days of playtime and you are asking me to throw that away to experience a new class, despite that multiclassing was implemented just for this purpose?

Areka

I think that if you really want to see class divorced from guild, then you need to make a well thought out proposal for what to do with guilds so that they are *mechanically* relevant and not just glorified clans, beyond 'toss them an honours line', that responsibly addresses guild purpose, function, health, and will attempt to preserve it. I think a lot of you are severely underestimating/understating/overlooking the purpose and weight carried of skills centered in guilds. 

Xavin

That's it exactly. Right now, you can say whatever you will about what functions a guild provides in-role. But if you boil it down to the barest minimums a guild is responsible for two things and only two things. 1 - looking after novices that join the guild as a means of helping the game continue and grow, and 2 - dispensing class to its members and apprentices.

If you remove control of class from the guilds you have to give them something that will continue to make them mechanically relevant instead of just glorified clans. There needs to be some function for them to perform that is more than just babysitting novices. The old vampire house system was just that and surprise surprise, it failed miserably. As it stands you don't even have to be a full member of a guild to grant an apprenticeship. Absolutely nothing is stopping some gr1 person that hasn't even achieved permanent class from handing it out to people. Keep that in mind. It's not like there's some mechanical system in place keeping the rank and file members of a guild from apprenticing people without approval of the leadership.

Alexina

If a guild's identity and purpose relies on teaching other people outside the guild their class skills, then I would claim that the guild is in a rather tough spot.

Re: Areka
We are not overlooking or understating the importance of a guild's skills to its members. We are saying that the guild would still have those skills centric to their roleplay, and that their roleplay would remain largely the same, even if other people could use them for their own combat, bashing, or roleplay. To claim that the Sentinels would suffer an identity crisis because Haven, Daskalos, Aren, and Jami (I'm just pulling names out of a hat, here) suddenly gained access to their skills, despite all of them being enemied to the guild just seems like a horrible argument. If this really is the case, the guild must have been on the verge of crisis already. This is my objection to the way people have been arguing in this thread.

• A guild's roleplay can be heavily focused on the skills it teaches. That guild's roleplay would not suffer in the slightest even if they no longer were the sole source of apprenticeship.
• A guild whose roleplay is focused largely on teaching its skills to people outside the guild should probably reprioritize. Members of a guild need to identify with its core principles regardless of outside influence (or the lack thereof).
  

All of that said, I'm not entirely in the favour of a magical NPC that teaches everyone everything. I suppose I wish players would not withhold their guild's class.

Areka

• A guild whose roleplay is focused largely on teaching its skills to people outside the guild should probably reprioritize. Members of a guild need to identify with its core principles regardless of outside influence (or the lack thereof).

They aren't focused on teaching people -outside the guild-. That's..that's the whole issue with the multiclass argument. They are the -skills of the guild-, of an organization of -people and history and lore and roleplay- that becomes weakened when the core of the guild's purpose (class and novice management) becomes meaningless - when the primary thing the guild is built around (an archetype which is is the skills INFLUENCING roleplay and roleplay influencing skills) becomes centralized. The sentinels become weakened when guild enemies can obtain their sacred pro-wilds training without breaking a sweat, because that is a loss of activity, potential membership, retribution, and interaction from that organization. You can just make a clan to have roleplay in, or a web. 

Edit: Again, solutions need to be put forward if this is something that you really want to happen, to reinstate a mechanical purpose to guilds outside of novice management. 

Arbre

How would things be if we changed apprenticing to only be allowed by those tri-trans (making it more difficult), yet -anyone-, guilded or rogue, could do it if tri-trans.  That's what makes sense to me on both factors - why could I have apprenticed you as Shaman if I have no naturalism learned?  Why -can't- I teach you Atabahi class when I've been tritrans Atabot since before the Doyen was born?

Draiman

I've played a rogue vampire for the majority of my time in Aetolia and I will say that most guilds are already little more than glorified clans in my experience on both Draiman and alts.

And most guilds are actually pretty terrible at novice management.

Ishin

Honestly, I'm pretty torn on the subject as a whole. Lemme explain why.

I really like Syssin. And I like Lycanthrope(wolf). And I actually kind've enjoyed Templar for the little bit of time I got to troll around with it. I also kind've like Spinesreach. Usually. I don't want to quit it just because I want to pick up Templar and goof around with it. This is, honestly, my desire as a player.

However, speaking from my IC type point of view, I don't want anyone who isn't from Spines or Loch to have Syssin class. It's not because I think you bunch of lifers are butthole griefers or anything like that, but it's because it makes zero sense IC for me to give you my class if I'm going to be fighting you guys. I had a guy from Duiran ask me the other day, and I very kindly turned him down. He asked why, and I told him that it was because he was from Duiran, and I didn't think it was right to give my enemy my own tools to use against me.

As a player, it makes me sad to do this. As a character, it's necessary.

Now that I've said that, if you guys wish to divorce class from guild, then each guild needs to be gone over very well and set into its pre-defined place. Syssin are this, they do that. Carnifex are this, they do that. I guess, in the end, it would really end up like the House system in Achaea, which I kinda do and do not like at the same time. As a player, it's cool. As a character, it's ehhhhh meh, you know? If you did divorce class from guilds, I'd really like to see a mirror type of each class, or there needs to be a general equality between opposing classes of each side.

Hope that makes sense, I haven't eaten much today so I might have rambled on >.>

Areka

I think separating/identifying what are reasonable player wants vs reasonable IC wants is a good thing to do in this assessment. 

I want people to have fun in the game, and to have -reasonable access- to skills and interesting things. Reasonable access does not mean it is a mandatory right of obtaining when you are not a member of the guild, though. 

I think it would be interesting, in my idealized future system of dreams, that there were mechanical and aesthetic differences between full-rogue class use and in-guild-trained class use. Things like Syssin's old Recouperate were in that direction (although that skill in itself wasn't as useful as it could be), and could help mitigate the issues of class and guilds. 

Irruel

@ishin
Have the syssin laws on handing out multiclass changed in the last couple of years? I was under the impression that it is relatively easy for characters like mine to get it? When I did, there was a bit of RP and a check that I wasn't an active aggressor against the Syssin. In all, including waiting around for play-times to coincide, it took 3-4 days.

I agree with the tethering restrictions. I don't want Sentinels multiclassed as Teradrim. I don't mind if there is a rogue Templar living in Spinesreach though (i.e. I don't want the mechanical restrictions to go as far as Imperian took it with the surges against magic/antimagic etc when in home territory). However, that rogue Templar is going to find it hard to get further multiclasses - this is a fair consequence of betrayal.

I really think that the untethered classes though - and remember that this is how this thread began, with Veovis raging against not being able to pick up monk - should be available to all, and that this needs to be implemented in a way that doesn't screw over the existing guilds.

Daingean

A guild need not be defined by their class, but the class of many guilds does define part of it. I cannot name a single guild, actually, whose rp doesn't in some way tie back to their primary class.

It may not effect or affect the guild or people in the guild for a person to have their class, but it does reflect on that organization - even if you may not think it does, if the Daru give Zealot to someone who then starts going around and slaughtering allies with Zealot class, people, in character, are going to justifiably say 'Who gave him zealot? He's burning everything down, genius.' - and the guild gets to stand there and say, 'Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time...'

I do not see, at all, why people seem to think that it's unreasonable for organizations to have expectations of those they teach their skills to - and, in some cases, restrictions. If you're a convicted felon, there are jobs you can't get. The role play of this game is deep and dynamic. If your role play causes issue with your character getting the class, well too bad. That's the decision you made when you took whatever paths you did.

Also, in regards to the 'three day wait' thing - seriously? -SERIOUSLY?- Your gorram life is so hinged on getting this class, that you cannot play Aetolia how you've played it for ages before you had the lessons/credits to get the class? Then use those three days to interact with the guild, expedite the process. Sway the leadership that's debating on your application. Influence the little people who -can- sway the leadership. Write a poem, sing a song, do something to show/prove that you should have the class, and usually, it'll get it for you faster.

The only legitimate argument I've ever heard is 'I was told I could have class, but no one was around to apprentice me.' That's it. Every other argument? Humgii fodder.

Draiman

I'd like to change my previous comment a bit.

Even if a guild has a reason, a purpose, I still do not see a whole lot of reason to have -that- class in most circumstances. Defend Spinesreach? You can do that as Cabalist/Vampire/Carnifex/Lycan. Guide, serve, and protect? You can do that as a Luminary/Daru/Shaman, so long as you're setting the example the Templars are wanting you to set. Bring about the Age of Dawn? Templar/Daru/otherliferclassesdoyouseewhereimgoingwiththis

If you think about it, Guilds are just like any other organization. They're meant for a group of like minded people working to accomplish the same goals. The only difference is Ivoln's order does not control Teradrim class. And honestly, that's what they should be. It shouldn't be a meeting ground for people who have the same 1337 skillz. THAT is better done in a web/clan, imo.


No, I'm not saying that class should be easy and everyone should be able to get what they want.  I do however feel like while keeping it in the hands of players could be a fine and dandy thing, I think that currently some things are just dumb (even for shadow side trying to get shadow classes).

Edit: For clarification, I'm not saying Edward should be citizened to Enorian if he has a good heart or be allowed to pick up Luminary class. He's an effing vampire and needs to get cured if he wants such things.

As far as monk/syssin/lycan - Yeah, I see one class in there that has been pegged as "neutral" in some way shape or form for the last 10 years, and they are still a shining example of how that crap has not and will not ever work in Aetolia. Tether the GUILD to something and make an NPC give class away (for Syssin/Lycan/Monk). It's fine this way and the way the guild skills are it doesn't make any less sense for Daskalos to be able to stab someone and shoot a bow than it does for Draiman.

Ishin

@Irruel I'm...not entirely sure we even actually have laws regarding it, except 'Refer them to GM/Section Chiefs for class'. Generally, we vote on it, but honestly like, applying IC logic and stuff...there's no reason for a Syssin to give to a Duiranite.

The Syndicate that you mentioned, @Irruel, doesn't actually exist anymore. The Syssin have moved into some weird post-Syndicate age where we're supposed to be standing guard(or something) vs. the Shadowbound. So we're kinda like Defenders, but not quite. Maybe Defenders Lite?

Going to write a letter in to Severn IC to see if I can get some clarification on what's going on currently with it, but until then, my character doesn't really have any reason to give class to opposing(for now?) cities.

Kerryn

Irruel said:

I really think that the untethered classes though - and remember that this is how this thread began, with Veovis raging against not being able to pick up monk - should be available to all, and that this needs to be implemented in a way that doesn't screw over the existing guilds.

While I sympathize with Veovis, I however am following the roleplay of my guild. Bloodloch has in the past, kidnapped and tortured our guild tutor. So exactly why would we be okay with teaching them our skills? The Sentaari's purpose is to protect the natural cycle of life. Which means many of those in Spinesreach and Bloodloch will be turned away, due to that conflict. Despite this, some darkies -are- still getting class under the table.

Haven

My complaint originally stemmed from someone who was in the Atabahi guild and couldn't get class largely due to the fact that the players in their guild were not available when they was playing. Some are just too afk. Some just don't play when they're around, maybe cause the others are on the other side of the world or something. Whatever the case, for them, they were stuck in a dead guild with a dead community. So they wanted to at least get class (to protect their investment) and go somewhere else that's more engaging.

Their only options, however, were metagame or I guess change their life around so that it matched the other players in the guild. That's unacceptable. Period. They instead gave up and went elsewhere. Players being the regulators of class is a bad and deeply flawed policy and I'm glad at least some of you recognize this. As is, guilds can (and some do) say no [b]forever[/b] to someone outside of their guild no matter what they do. Guilds used to do it to their own members too but Admin quickly rectified that and will crush anyone who tries to unreasonably withhold class from their own members. With the advent of multi-class and the apprentice system, I do not see why the Admin don't apply the same policy to nonguild members. And your solution to this problem is: well the person can just alt or metagame? Ugh.

[spoiler]

Here's a hypothetical: Let's say Desian returns today and exterminates every forest in the game and plays a hardcore Indorani. Rightfully earns enemystatus amongst the Shaman and Sentinels. Now let's fast forward 10 real life years from now and over the past 5 real life years Desian has tried to turn over a new leaf and play a different role for his character. He has managed to join Enorian and dropped his shadow tethered skills. He got into the Ascendril and has since been working to further their agenda. He now seeks apprenticeship with the Sentinels. The guild says no because they can and have him permanently blacklisted for his crimes made as an Indorani 10 RL years ago. They don't care about his service from the past five years or any service he might do in the future. They do not want to apprentice him at all. So Desian's only recourse is to start all over (alt) or cheat (metagame) even though the game says he could be an Ascendril Sentinel if he wanted to. Another option I suppose would be to leave where he's happy (the Ascendril) and join the Sentinel guild where they would then be forced to eventually allow him class.

If you were Desian, how would you feel? How is this okay? How is this justified? If you do not believe this hypothetical is okay or justified then that means you agree that fundamentally class should always be available to pick up. How the class is obtained then does not matter, only that the guarantee of obtaining it always exists. In our current system, the guarantee ceases to exist once you type your password in. At least before multi-class went in, you were guaranteed class because Kelende and Certimene existed so you could just join the guild regardless of what the players within wanted. Unfortunately, that's no longer an option because Certimene and Kelende are still set to require that you are classless.

[/spoiler]

But at the end of the day, the lot of you are right in that that's just how it is and the developers designed it this way. That's really the only argument that holds any water as far as I'm able to tell. IRE either wants their game this way or aren't aware that their game has become this way with these changes. -shrug- And that's their right if they chose it. It is their game after all and we're just here for the ride.

Areka

In regards to your first comment there, Haven - that's a completely different issue than automating non-guilded class. I also do not believe that those are their only options - did they try to send messages and arrange times? Do interviews at a distance since in-guild class is just a matter of favours which can be done without the people being online at the same time? If they attempted communication and did not get reasonable response they could also always issue themselves. For someone who advocates conflict and roleplay, you're really quick to jump to the assumption that the metagame's the only option. 

In regards to the Desian scenario - yes that would be difficult, but his entire gameplay is not built upon an external organization's skills, nor his entitlement to it. While a bummer, it is built upon his actions and yes, it would be wonderful if there was a way for him to overturn that status but it is still due to -his decisions-. There are other classes he can go to if he wants a non-mage experience. Multiclassing is an option, and a benefit, but not a mandatory entitlement. 

Rather than complaining about the current arrangement - offer an alternative, an actual alternative that addresses the concerns and points raised, not a half-assed "well I want it my way and poo poo on the input of others involved in the game and would be adversely affected by this." 

Edit: I do not believe any of us are advocating that the current system is deal or doing all that it needs to or shouldn't be changed. The one-sided alternatives just leave something wanting and need to be developed to accommodate the entirety of the game and its pieces. 

Moirean

I just want to reiterate that not all classes are made equal. Aetolia's development cycle focuses on one class at a time. This means we definitely have a heavy flavor of the (several) month class, but it also means that we have outdated classes that are waiting their turn for dev time. As players, I think we could be more understanding here - know that if you have a newly revamped class, people are going to want to play with it. It's really kinda lame to try to extort people for the latest shiny class or use it to try to pull people away from their guild to yours. In the example I cited, the guy had already waited over a week, and this is definitely not the first time the Teradrim have tried to be really heavy-handed with their class sharing since the revamp.

Conversely, know that some guilds are stuck with really outdated classes and multiclass for some of us is the only way to be in a guild that we like the RP for (Carnifex and Cabalist being the biggest examples here) while also being able to be functional in stuff like PK. Multiclass is a great tool to lighten the burden of waiting for revamps...but only if you can GET multiclassed.

Haven

Areka said:

In regards to your first comment there, Haven - that's a completely different issue than automating non-guilded class. I also do not believe that those are their only options - did they try to send messages and arrange times? Do interviews at a distance since in-guild class is just a matter of favours which can be done without the people being online at the same time? If they attempted communication and did not get reasonable response they could also always issue themselves. For someone who advocates conflict and roleplay, you're really quick to jump to the assumption that the metagame's the only option. 

In regards to the Desian scenario - yes that would be difficult, but his entire gameplay is not built upon an external organization's skills, nor his entitlement to it. While a bummer, it is built upon his actions and yes, it would be wonderful if there was a way for him to overturn that status but it is still due to -his decisions-. There are other classes he can go to if he wants a non-mage experience. Multiclassing is an option, and a benefit, but not a mandatory entitlement. 

Rather than complaining about the current arrangement - offer an alternative, an actual alternative that addresses the concerns and points raised, not a half-assed "well I want it my way and poo poo on the input of others involved in the game and would be adversely affected by this." 

As far as I am aware, yes, they did try. I and others have told them to issue but the fact that it even has to resort to that... Why not just create a solution to eliminate the problem entirely? Also, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at or intended with the underlined comment but I don't think I appreciate it. I might have misunderstood your implication and if so please forgive my taking offense.

As for your other point, alternatives were originally being offered but they were swept aside because there is a belief that there isn't a large problem in the first place. So one must first convince you there is a problem to be fixed before alternatives can be suggested otherwise they're just ignored.

Areka

Because there the problem is the guild, not upending the entire system on its head without going back and compensating for the change. 

Giving honours lines is not -enough- of an idea to standalone replace class being grounded within the guilds that teach and house that training. 

Right now symptoms and root problems are being misconstrued or tangled and the proffered solutions only address the symptoms rather than the actual issues - or overlook issues those solutions create for the sake of convenience. 

@Moirean - I know bb, and those cases are tough and definitely warrant more consideration. That's also a different problem than multiclass as it is in itself though. 

Edit: As to the underlined comment, I suppose it's that I find it frustrating that you are over-dramatizing the situation to being that metagaming is the only way to get a class ever and are completely overlooking the consequences and roleplay involved in the process, for good or ill. And overlooking that 8/10 times there isn't a problem, and 2/10 times when there IS a problem, it is usually due to the roleplayed consequences of a character's actions (things they've done wrong or impatience/being put out that they have to do anything other than ask) or organizational troubles (inactivity/being unreasonably censured - this half are problems that should be handled by admin and are a separate issue than the nature of autoclass as it is right now)

Veovis

Daingean said:

Also, in regards to the 'three day wait' thing - seriously? -SERIOUSLY?- Your gorram life is so hinged on getting this class, that you cannot play Aetolia how you've played it for ages before you had the lessons/credits to get the class? Then use those three days to interact with the guild, expedite the process. Sway the leadership that's debating on your application. Influence the little people who -can- sway the leadership. Write a poem, sing a song, do something to show/prove that you should have the class, and usually, it'll get it for you faster.

Yes, seriously. What good reason is there to have a three day wait? I've seen the "the developers must want it this way because mechanics" argument used. So, let's use it here too. The developers decided that anyone who is in a guild and has learnt enough skills can apprentice up to, what, five people? The developers have not seen fit to require that there be a three day wait or a vote by guild leadership before allowing someone to apprentice. So, what good reason is there for a three day wait? Clearly, the developers mustn't want it that way since they didn't code in a limit.

Areka

The aministration and developers have seen fit to allow guilds to develop their own  policies regarding multiclass. Templar have a 3 day wait while we discuss and give people a time to vote or voice concerns before either apprenticing or providing training opportunities to get someone up to roleplay snuff to be granted the honour and responsibility of using our holy training. 

Haven

Areka said:

Because there the problem is the guild, not upending the entire system on its head without going back and compensating for the change. 

Giving honours lines is not -enough- of an idea to standalone replace class being grounded within the guilds that teach and house that training. 

Right now symptoms and root problems are being misconstrued or tangled and the proffered solutions only address the symptoms rather than the actual issues - or overlook issues those solutions create for the sake of convenience. 

@Moirean - I know bb, and those cases are tough and definitely warrant more consideration. That's also a different problem than multiclass as it is in itself though. 

Edit: As to the underlined comment, I suppose it's that I find it frustrating that you are over-dramatizing the situation to being that metagaming is the only way to get a class ever and are completely overlooking the consequences and roleplay involved in the process, for good or ill. And overlooking that 8/10 times there isn't a problem, and 2/10 times when there IS a problem, it is usually due to the roleplayed consequences of a character's actions (things they've done wrong or impatience/being put out that they have to do anything other than ask) or organizational troubles (inactivity/being unreasonably censured - this half are problems that should be handled by admin and are a separate issue than the nature of autoclass as it is right now)

Well, I'd appreciate it if you didn't resort to insulting my integrity just because you find our disagreement frustrating. Baits like that in arguments are how discussions turn into flame-wars and get topics closed.

Edit: That said, I agree with you in that honor lines aren't enough. It is why I also suggested in addition to that, that there be an influence system where guilds could also affect the NPCs reaction to the player seeking training from it to be a tier difficulty via enemyship. That way guilds have power and leverage still but class is no longer impossible to obtain should the guild wish it to be. Class is not something that other players should be able to absolutely regulate.

Riluo

This certain person you are speaking of has been wait upwards of five days total for a definite answer, and repeatedly ignored. I won't say anymore on it, but it is sickening to have to wait that long.

Veovis

Kerryn said:

Irruel said:

I really think that the untethered classes though - and remember that this is how this thread began, with Veovis raging against not being able to pick up monk - should be available to all, and that this needs to be implemented in a way that doesn't screw over the existing guilds.

While I sympathize with Veovis, I however am following the roleplay of my guild. Bloodloch has in the past, kidnapped and tortured our guild tutor. So exactly why would we be okay with teaching them our skills? The Sentaari's purpose is to protect the natural cycle of life. Which means many of those in Spinesreach and Bloodloch will be turned away, due to that conflict. Despite this, some darkies -are- still getting class under the table.

I grok your roleplay. In character, Veovis would quite literally rather die than become one of the living or join the Sentaari, however, given Veovis' unique perspective on Vampirism, the monk skills would be absolutely phenomenal in terms of roleplay.

Right now people are looking at giving someone class via apprenticeship as a wholly in-character thing, and that's fine, but it needn't be a completely in character thing. In character, Veovis doesn't want to do anything more than try to eat you and possibly mock you. He certainly doesn't want to learn from you. He couldn't even tolerate the Carnifex because it had living members. He certainly wouldn't learn from the Sentaari.

Out of character, I love the monk class. I've loved it since I played a Kharon, and multi-classing was put in place so that I didn't have to grind an alt to 100, buy another 2-3000 credits & etc. I can think of half a dozen RP premises for Veovis to learn the class and plenty of reasons why he'd want to. Unfortunately, the present way players use multi-classing limits that roleplay.

Veovis

Irruel said:

I really think that the untethered classes though - and remember that this is how this thread began, with Veovis raging against not being able to pick up monk - should be available to all, and that this needs to be implemented in a way that doesn't screw over the existing guilds.

Actually it began with @Haven saying that he wished class wasn't in the hands of players and me agreeing with him.