Class dispensing

Moirean

While I seriously despise what houses did to Achaea, I agree that apprenticeship is a bit stupid right now. I just had a member essentially forced to quit my guild as joining Teradrim was the only way that he can multiclass into Teradrim. That is, frankly, absurd. People shouldn't have to choose between abandoning orgs and a second class if they are in good standing with an org. Furthermore, this only highlights issues brought up by the cyclical nature of class design - the guilds with outdated/weaker toolkits can offer all the RP and engagement in the world, but if people are forced to pick between a nicely functional class and a fun guild, they are going to not only really dislike making the decision, they aren't going to like the game as much. I know a few OTHER guild members have simply stopped playing because of stuff like that; they didn't want to quit the guild, but they couldn't get apprenticed to newer classes like Teradrim and it just made them incredibly frustrated.

Haven

Carivah said:

Haven said:

Areka said:

He isn't being denied kinship because he hasn't sought kinship - hasn't sought to joint he guild and earn his stripes, etc. 

If we take that scenario where he doesn't approach the guild first and instead goes straight for the NPC despite knowing he's caused trouble or what have you with the guild, I would argue that the consequences still persist. Because as soon as the guild finds out he has the skills they covet so dearly, they can still react to it if they so choose. Much like if someone currently gets apprenticed without proper authorization from the guild.

The only difference is that you'd be unable to essentially say, "Haha, you can't play this game's class because I don't want you to." You can still RP the consequences. You can still have an impact on their decisions.

But there's more to being a Templar than just knowing how to swing a sword, more to being a Daru than just knowing how to throw a punch. If someone truly was an enemy of the guild and so, more than likely, an enemy of the class's philosophy, why would even an NPC be willing to teach them Illumination or Deathlore or Hematurgy or any other such RP-loaded skill? The quest should be so difficult in that instance that I don't see how working with an NPC over the guild leadership would be meaningfully different.

Because no matter what, you could still obtain the class through an NPC whereas with the guild, you could not. That's the difference. The guild could indefinitely say no currently to a person if they so chose regardless of who is being reasonable or not. Then, in order to play the game, you would then have to find a way to metagame to bypass that road block.

The guilds are more than swinging a sword. More than knowing how to throw a punch. The guilds are built around an ideal and the community that supports it. By not being apart of that guild, you deny yourself that relationship with them. Guilds don't have the power to strip class from a player once he has it for a reason.

Irruel

No one would be complaining at the moment if the 'neutral' classes were also neutral guilds.

Sadly, the syssin syndicate model, which allows characters like mine to get syssin, doesn't work for the sentaari. It's not fair to those players to expect them to allow vampire monks.

So, the only solution is the lycan/mage model of allowing another monk org to exist. OR

Ive had this idea brewing for a while now, monks and magi ought to be guildless classes. I'll post my ideas for that when I get home and have a real keyboard to type on.

Haven

Xavin said:

See, here's the thing. If you're an enemy of a guild that dispenses X class, why should you expect anyone in that guild would give you the class? For example, if Xavin were an enemy of, say, the Daru, I wouldn't expect him to be able to learn the Daru skillset. How would that make sense, that someone who hasn't attoned for their crimes against an organization should be able to learn that organization's ways? Here the mechanics are supporting the roleplay.

It'd be no different than if Xavin lied convincingly about his attonement to get the skills and once had it immediately went back to whatever offended the Daru in the first place.

Haven

Piper said:

Okay! SO. Speaking as an ex-achaean for over a decade over here.. I literally saw the implimentation of Houses and open-classes as a tragedy that kinda ruined the feeling of the game for me. Suddenly, actions had no consequences and we'd have people doing the Achaean version of YOLO. I understand that it's difficult and sometimes you feel nudged into a box but I don't think free lack-of-restriction is the answer at all.

Perhaps we should grow more easy with our tethering since the idea of being banned from a guild's RP is not any punishment for people that do not have any interest in RP. A balance would be nice but I'm not AT ALL okay with a free-for-all of anyone can just buy whatever they want. Earn it. That's RP, too.

How would you feel if you were playing Skyrim or Mass Effect or D&D or something and instead of doing the quests for some of the special stuff like werewolves or being allowed to pick your class as the game intended, you instead had to do something another player wanted first? Not the admin or devs of the game but a player. Can't progress unless they're online. Can't keep the class unless you do what they required to reach a certain status. "Sorry bro, earn your right to play and keep this game's core mechanic cause that's my RP."

Class is a core mechanic and selling point for Aetolia. Why are players allowed to largely regulate it? Look at what the Syssin, Sentaari, and Lycans do! The game says that the class can be picked up by anyone as they're a neutral tether but the guilds RP themselves as if tethered to shadow or spirit. It's well within their right to wall off their community and RP but I don't believe holding class is something they should be able to do. Especially when the game advertises otherwise.

It's the same principle for when guilds used to make insane requirements to get GR3. Our power as players should be in the story and the interactions. Not core mechanics. That's the developer's territory.  If you join a guild and get ousted before obtaining class, it's not really logical that you suddenly forget how to do anything that you've already learned just because you didn't meet their standards fast enough to earn a title/rank to prevent the loss. Same vein if someone has already begun to apprentice you and taught you the basics or whatever, you wouldn't just suddenly forget.

Areka

It WOULD be different, because then there would be interaction with the guild and some form of responsibility and activity involved in the exchange.

Guilds aren't ONLY their ideals, they're also specific skillsets that influence and are influenced by those ideals and lore. 

Let's not make Houses a thing, that was awful. 

Haven

Areka said:

It WOULD be different, because then there would be interaction with the guild and some form of responsibility and activity involved in the exchange.

Guilds aren't ONLY their ideals, they're also specific skillsets that influence and are influenced by those ideals and lore. 

Let's not make Houses a thing, that was awful. 

The guild can still interact with the person that obtained the skills from an NPC.

Carivah

Haven said:

The guilds are more than swinging a sword. More than knowing how to throw a punch. The guilds are built around an ideal and the community that supports it. By not being apart of that guild, you deny yourself that relationship with them. Guilds don't have the power to strip class from a player once he has it for a reason.

Guilds aren't so distinct from their skillsets, though. It's not as if guild=fluff and class=crunch in a strict divide between RP and mechanics.

Let's take Deathlore for example, which involves actively cutting up bits of your soul and devouring the souls of others. It's distinctly Carnified, and while you don't have to join the Carnifex to learn how to do it necessarily, I don't see how you could easily just decide you wanted to learn the mechanical skill if you were completely opposed to the Shadow Keep philosophically and ideologically.

I'm not disagreeing that something should be done about how apprenticeship works, only that I don't really agree that classes are just part of the mechanical options of the game's code.

Macavity

Moirean said:

While I seriously despise what houses did to Achaea, I agree that apprenticeship is a bit stupid right now. I just had a member essentially forced to quit my guild as joining Teradrim was the only way that he can multiclass into Teradrim. That is, frankly, absurd. People shouldn't have to choose between abandoning orgs and a second class if they are in good standing with an org. Furthermore, this only highlights issues brought up by the cyclical nature of class design - the guilds with outdated/weaker toolkits can offer all the RP and engagement in the world, but if people are forced to pick between a nicely functional class and a fun guild, they are going to not only really dislike making the decision, they aren't going to like the game as much. I know a few OTHER guild members have simply stopped playing because of stuff like that; they didn't want to quit the guild, but they couldn't get apprenticed to newer classes like Teradrim and it just made them incredibly frustrated.

I know the person you are speaking of and it should be noted that from an RP sense the process to approve or deny apprenticeship was started before he left the guild.  He choose to leave the guild on his own, all he needed to do was wait for the process to end which would be over in three days.  

As for the current topic, it does take way too long to get apprenticed in general.  It would be nice if said NPCs that were mentioned already in this thread, would take orders from the Guild leadership, and keep a record of those approved, or at the very least anyone enemied would not be allowed to get class from the NPC.  In the case of guild leadership giving orders, they could just tell the NPC to allow and then send a message to the person who wanted it.  That way the guild leadership and new person does not need to be online at the same time.  

To be honest with a game that is live 24/7 I cannot believe that an NPC method of giving class has not been created yet.  Perhaps it is still in the works?

Haven

Carivah said:

Haven said:

The guilds are more than swinging a sword. More than knowing how to throw a punch. The guilds are built around an ideal and the community that supports it. By not being apart of that guild, you deny yourself that relationship with them. Guilds don't have the power to strip class from a player once he has it for a reason.

Guilds aren't so distinct from their skillsets, though. It's not as if guild=fluff and class=crunch in a strict divide between RP and mechanics.

Let's take Deathlore for example, which involves actively cutting up bits of your soul and devouring the souls of others. It's distinctly Carnified, and while you don't have to join the Carnifex to learn how to do it necessarily, I don't see how you could easily just decide you wanted to learn the mechanical skill if you were completely opposed to the Shadow Keep philosophically and ideologically.

I'm not disagreeing that something should be done about how apprenticeship works, only that I don't really agree that classes are just part of the mechanical options of the game's code.

You oppose the Carnifex's lust for battle or maybe their "code of honour amongst themselves" or maybe you just don't like the military style but you support devouring souls and manipulating souls and swinging a halberd around with warhounds in tow else I'd think you wouldn't be interested in obtaining the skills in the first place.

If you -had- to match the guild's current philosophy and ideology in order to use the skills, considering that most if not all guilds's main ideology can have different interpretations, do you see how that'd be bad for a lot of people/the game? Especially if the ideology was interpreted differently than that of the current in-crowd?

Roleplay is about the story and the adventure while working within the confines of the game world. How someone obtains their skills doesn't affect your ability to roleplay with them at all. It only affects how you might roleplay with them. And that's where the magic happens. You're reacting to their choices and advancing story to where ever it takes you and your character.

Piper

@Haven I get where you're coming at but ME and Skyrim aren't multiplayer games. They're single player games with static quests that you can see coming from a mile away half the time. You're entertained but you're not dealing with real people. Aetolia is an MMO. We're people. You deal with us as a part of dealing with the world.

Using D&D is a silly example since that depends on the GM.

EDIT- Gonna throw my infamous commenting about LARP experiences I've had in here.. OK. So. You can't get class in a month. I had to earn a class over two years time and I had some amazing roleplay. Sure, the players that I needed to lean on for it didn't show for every event (Which are two weekend events every Spring and Summer) but I got to deal with events that involved me because they were game-wide. The game doesn't stop just because you can't get a class RIGHT THE PITS NOW. It means you need to hold your horses because not everything is instant gratification.

EDIT2- I feel like sometimes a lot of Aetolians take the concept of Multiclassing for granted. Yes, we have something awesome in the game. No, it's not just YOUR plaything. Just because something is an option doesn't mean you can play willy nilly. It just means that it's an option, not just a right.

Carivah

Macavity said:

Moirean said:

While I seriously despise what houses did to Achaea, I agree that apprenticeship is a bit stupid right now. I just had a member essentially forced to quit my guild as joining Teradrim was the only way that he can multiclass into Teradrim. That is, frankly, absurd. People shouldn't have to choose between abandoning orgs and a second class if they are in good standing with an org. Furthermore, this only highlights issues brought up by the cyclical nature of class design - the guilds with outdated/weaker toolkits can offer all the RP and engagement in the world, but if people are forced to pick between a nicely functional class and a fun guild, they are going to not only really dislike making the decision, they aren't going to like the game as much. I know a few OTHER guild members have simply stopped playing because of stuff like that; they didn't want to quit the guild, but they couldn't get apprenticed to newer classes like Teradrim and it just made them incredibly frustrated.

I know the person you are speaking of and it should be noted that from an RP sense the process to approve or deny apprenticeship was started before he left the guild.  He choose to leave the guild on his own, all he needed to do was wait for the process to end which would be over in three days.  

Either you're lying or he is.

Haven said:

Carivah said:

Haven said:

The guilds are more than swinging a sword. More than knowing how to throw a punch. The guilds are built around an ideal and the community that supports it. By not being apart of that guild, you deny yourself that relationship with them. Guilds don't have the power to strip class from a player once he has it for a reason.

Guilds aren't so distinct from their skillsets, though. It's not as if guild=fluff and class=crunch in a strict divide between RP and mechanics.

Let's take Deathlore for example, which involves actively cutting up bits of your soul and devouring the souls of others. It's distinctly Carnified, and while you don't have to join the Carnifex to learn how to do it necessarily, I don't see how you could easily just decide you wanted to learn the mechanical skill if you were completely opposed to the Shadow Keep philosophically and ideologically.

I'm not disagreeing that something should be done about how apprenticeship works, only that I don't really agree that classes are just part of the mechanical options of the game's code.

You oppose the Carnifex's lust for battle or maybe their "code of honour amongst themselves" or maybe you just don't like the military style but you support devouring souls and manipulating souls and swinging a halberd around with warhounds in tow else I'd think you wouldn't be interested in obtaining the skills in the first place.

If you -had- to match the guild's current philosophy and ideology in order to use the skills, considering that most if not all guilds's main ideology can have different interpretations, do you see how that'd be bad for a lot of people/the game? Especially if the ideology was interpreted differently than that of the current in-crowd?

Roleplay is about the story and the adventure while working within the confines of the game world. How someone obtains their skills doesn't affect your ability to roleplay with them at all. It only affects how you might roleplay with them. And that's where the magic happens. You're reacting to their choices and advancing story to where ever it takes you and your character.

But what you're describing ("I like what you do and learn how to do it but I'm not willing to join you outright") is apprenticeship. In the specific case of Deathlore, intellectually knowing how to do it means nothing unless you can access the master soulstone, an object which is physically located in the Carnifex keep, so you at least need permission to go and learn how to do our highly specific magic. See also Cabalists and Bloodborn: you couldn't spontaneously know their secret rituals without their permission.

Areka

In turn, the Paladin guild was offered to be retrained by Duamvi guests in their specialized form of holy warcraft (they serve the Triad of Angels) to enable them in their *idealistic work*. 

Multiclass != entitlement to whatever you want (and I feel multiclassing is being taken for granted). Class != only mechanics of flavour. To further divorce the purpose, lore, and integrity of class-guild relationships for the sake of entitlement would be a disservice to Aetolia. 

Haven

Piper said:

@Haven I get where you're coming at but ME and Skyrim aren't multiplayer games. They're single player games with static quests that you can see coming from a mile away half the time. You're entertained but you're not dealing with real people. Aetolia is an MMO. We're people. You deal with us as a part of dealing with the world.

The people are -not- the class. They are the story. They are the adventures. They are the ideals they build themselves around.That's what makes roleplay what it is. Deny me your roleplay if you wish. Deny me the community behind your organization if that's how you want to play it. But what right do you have to deny me the ability to play the game? What do you lose if I pick up the class?

Story? Uhh, last I checked you can still interact with me so the story still exists.

Class? Last I checked, my having class does not strip you of your class.

People? Well, that's the game. Your organization needs to be engaging enough to retain its members or convincing enough to pull people towards their ideology. So again, it's not class that's the issue.

Roleplay integrity? Well, unless the class is being used in a way the game or its developers does not intend, I'd ask how. Most if not all classes are purposely designed with a broad theme in mind to allow for interpretations to be made within that sphere of the game. For instance, a Templar who is committed to killing baby Rajamalans because they're "evil" is no less righteous than the Templar who is committed to killing undead because of the simple fact that good/evil is subjective. What separates a guilded person and a nonguilded person would then be in their philosophy/ideology and possibly loyalty, not their class.

Carivah

But the developers have chosen that you have to get a class from a guild and it's players.

I'm really confused that you're advocating that anybody should be able to get any class without the guild's permission and then saying "What does it matter as long as I'm doing things the way the developers want?" when, well.

Areka

You aren't losing the ability to play the game.

Piper

I would deny you the sudden ability to be a specifically-trained person that was taught a trick by a set group of people with a specific twist to their mindset. You, yourself, are the player... the guilds and the classes tangled in them are not just our playthings. They can eventually succumb, no doubt, but they can't just suddenly become something related without having that background.

I've left a game because they implemented something similar. This does not work. It sounds great but it's a cheap cop-out.

Haven

Carivah said:

But what you're describing ("I like what you do and learn how to do it but I'm not willing to join you outright") is apprenticeship. In the specific case of Deathlore, intellectually knowing how to do it means nothing unless you can access the master soulstone, an object which is physically located in the Carnifex keep, so you at least need permission to go and learn how to do our highly specific magic. See also Cabalists and Bloodborn: you couldn't spontaneously know their secret rituals without their permission.

Unless, of course, you manage to somehow steal said knowledge or break into those places to get what you need.

Edit: What you're arguing for is the story/roleplay. And that's something you should get from the people through the roleplay. The class, however, is an element (a core one mind you) in the game to be used to enhance said story and interactions with other people.

Jensen

Consider yourself DENIED!!!

I actually wish we could be w/e class we wanted regardless of tethering.  Unfortunately for both untethering and for class dispensing it requires -everyone- to be onboard with making sure it makes sense from an RP standpoint.  There's trolls who'd abuse it, pure pker's who would just want the skills with zero back story for it to make sense, if it could make sense, fools, and then the small percent who could use it for immersion and for the pure intended purpose.

I don't think we live in that world, but I can dream

Haven

Carivah said:

But the developers have chosen that you have to get a class from a guild and it's players.

I'm really confused that you're advocating that anybody should be able to get any class without the guild's permission and then saying "What does it matter as long as I'm doing things the way the developers want?" when, well.

I... Hmm. Touché.

Well played, good sir. The argument is yours.

Carivah

Haven said:

Carivah said:

But what you're describing ("I like what you do and learn how to do it but I'm not willing to join you outright") is apprenticeship. In the specific case of Deathlore, intellectually knowing how to do it means nothing unless you can access the master soulstone, an object which is physically located in the Carnifex keep, so you at least need permission to go and learn how to do our highly specific magic. See also Cabalists and Bloodborn: you couldn't spontaneously know their secret rituals without their permission.

Unless, of course, you manage to somehow steal said knowledge or break into those places to get what you need.

Edit: What you're arguing for is the story/roleplay. And that's something you should get from the people through the roleplay. The class, however, is an element (a core one mind you) in the game to be used to enhance said story and interactions with other people.

Stealing the knowledge is valid, I agree. I'm not sure how you'd go about that. Off the top of my head, I'd say maybe allowing anyone with enough knowledge in a class (tri-trans? time played? idk) to apprentice even if they aren't in the guild, so that if you really wanted monk as a vampire, you could learn it from someone in your house that had managed to pick it up. But that's probably too open to abuse in the other direction.

As for the rest, I'm not simply arguing for roleplay vs. mechanics, I'm saying that they're not as separated as you see them.

In Mass Effect, there's a lot of flavor in whether you're playing as a biotic or not. So I went with Vanguard, but I also wanted a sharpshooter, so I picked up Sniper Rifles through the various NewGame+ options.

World of Warcraft is really easy to ignore fluff and focus on the crunch of whatever class you like to play, but even there you'll note that races without ties to the Cenarion Circle couldn't be druids, for example.

At it's most basic level, how do you imagine your character -- as a mage, an armored fighter, or a lighter rogue type? or some hybrid of the above? The classes all represent a mindset within them, in at least one skill if not all three. They aren't just mechanics.

EDIT: I think I've said all I really can, so I'll just watch people who have more ideas and experience for the rest of the thread.

Daingean

Piper said:

Okay! SO. Speaking as an ex-achaean for over a decade over here.. I literally saw the implimentation of Houses and open-classes as a tragedy that kinda ruined the feeling of the game for me. Suddenly, actions had no consequences and we'd have people doing the Achaean version of YOLO. I understand that it's difficult and sometimes you feel nudged into a box but I don't think free lack-of-restriction is the answer at all.

I agree with the above. I also don't believe that a guild is defined by it's class, and I also don't believe that everyone should have all classes for the asking.

I know, personally, that I have gone out of my way and event bent my character to allow some people to have Zealot class that really offered no rp behind having/wanting/keeping it beyond the 'I can has class' tell. There are, similarly, people who've got long standing rp that should realistically blacklist them from getting some classes. This is that 'actions have consequences' thing. 

Of course, I like tethers, and adore polarity, so my views are not entirely without bias - I also believe that the 'neutral' classes should be done away with entirely and reskins of them made available on the respective tethers, because organizational rp is and should be stronger than the mechanical boundaries of tethers.

What I -do- support is a mechanical method for guilds to offer class to people via an NPC, so that the whole 'where's a player who can apprentice?' bit is done away with. Maybe a use for that guild sanction thing, and an NPC that a sanctioned player can gain and learn class skills from?

Edit - Wasn't done reading, I guess.

Re: 'I want x class, and they're being weenies' statements:

See my previous statement regarding neutral classes. You cannot have neutral classes and polarized guilds, that's a rock and a hard place. This is a gap in the tether system, and it should be remedied by replacing neutral classes with reskinned alternatives as required - spirit syssins, shadow monks - and then you can have an NPC or quest-style method to obtain the reskin if it's not offered by an existing organization on your side of the fence.

Re: 'Yeah, but in X I can...' or 'Well, imagine if X did...' statements:

Aetolia is not X, stop comparing it to X.

Irruel

The coming changes to the lycans and the pack system, with the scrapping of the guilds, got me thinking about how all the untethered guilds could go a similar way. Obviously not the pack system for monks and magi, but you know...

Monks

Monks could also work well as a guildless class. Groups could band together to offer a common teaching environment (dojo) and/or common purpose. The Sentaari would be poised to continue on as the first, oldest and most established of them - already with all the purchased expansions/addons that they currently have.

• When initially created (any transcendent monk could do this) they would be nothing more than a communication channel.
• With enough gold, they could purchase things like a newsboard, logs, ranks, titles - things guilds have.
• If affiliated with a city, they could build a guildhall, but once again this would be expensive so without plenty of active members it wouldn't happen. This would stop it going the way of the houses.

Magi

Then I got to thinking about the mage guilds, and the faction system. A central academy/conclave/tower/university/whatever for the study of magic. Everyone must join to get class. Getting class is the learning of abilities and a series of quests (i.e. has nothing to do with PLAYERS). Afterwards, you could quit it if you wanted but being a member wouldn't stop you from joining a guild/city, and there would be incentives (factional?) to remaining a member.

For those that wanted, disgustingly horrible politics would be available - but completely optional as this isn't a guild. It's a place full of both enemies and allies, and as such wouldn't need to DO anything to be a success.

The choices in the quests to gain class, and in other choices made elsewhere in the game (i.e. FACTIONS) determine whether you are shadow or light aligned, and therefore which elements you are capable of channeling and which skills you actually have.

Syssin

Already pretty well organised by players, with an open mind about allowing people from all over to join. But, if all the other untethered classes were to go guildless, maybe the SYNDICATE could be made official, once again with quests and stuff to gain class, and some kind of factional disputes which gets members that are normally enemies, working together (or against each other) as part of temporary (business of course) alliances.

I haven't really thought that one through very much, but you get my drift, right?

Hadoryu

Thread Summary:

Should class be a commodity?

Things that are commodities:

• Commodities
• Cures
• Credits
• Experience
• Player houses (in general, some may not be depending on city restrictions)
• The vampire cure

Things that are not commodities:

• Citizenship
• Order membership
• Influence
• Shops
• Org favors
• Class (currently)

To summarize, commodities are:

• Replaceable
• Available
• Have generally reliable prices
• Are generally tools that facilitate other actions rather than goals

Should class be a commodity?

AGREE for 'yes' and DISAGREE for 'no'

Toz

I don't want a world where all the people who annoy me have Syssin. That is all.

Calipso

This game is focused around its classes, they are what supply a big chunk of the fun. Remember this is a -game-, we're playing this to enjoy the mechanics offered and make our character the person we envision. It should not be some form of player controlled mechanic that restricts where and how we can have fun.

So a player is a daru but not of the guild? Big deal. There are TONS of rp avenues they can take as per having the skill.
They wish to bring about an age of dawn on their own terms?
They disagree with what the light views as "justified".
Their father taught them the arts of a zealot to defend themselves. Etc etc

Skills need not be tied to one guild and a player's decision upon if they can or cannot access them. Frankly even as it stands, one can eventually (and through some long searching) get a guildie to give them class, no matter where. So i dont see what's the big deal with just making it a full mechanic by an npc

Additionally, i thnk neutral classes should be able to be learnt by anyone by some form of npc. Im shocked they are still tied to guilds...just make the monks in the putoran monastery and some bandit camp (three rock?) Teach the skills.

Veovis

@Macavity

The issues with apprenticeship taking too long are entirely player driven. There's absolutely no reason it needs to take three days for someone to get apprenticed. Guilds at some point decided they needed to create hurdles for people who want the class. Almost every guild I'm familiar with including the Carnifex, Teradrim, Indorani, and Bloodborn have a process requiring a vote by guild leadership before someone can be apprenticed. There's really no need for it. If a player who can apprentice someone wants to apprentice that person, there's literally noting stopping them except player-created barriers. 

Veovis

Piper said:

Okay! SO. Speaking as an ex-achaean for over a decade over here.. I literally saw the implimentation of Houses and open-classes as a tragedy that kinda ruined the feeling of the game for me. Suddenly, actions had no consequences and we'd have people doing the Achaean version of YOLO. I understand that it's difficult and sometimes you feel nudged into a box but I don't think free lack-of-restriction is the answer at all.

Perhaps we should grow more easy with our tethering since the idea of being banned from a guild's RP is not any punishment for people that do not have any interest in RP. A balance would be nice but I'm not AT ALL okay with a free-for-all of anyone can just buy whatever they want. Earn it. That's RP, too.

Achaean since 1997, for what it matters...

I was probably one of the strongest voices in Achaea's Garden against auto-class at the time. Sarapis and I had a very long discussion about it when he began implementing the changes. He definitely won me over to his side of the argument with sheer numbers and some anecdotes from players/customers who quit because of the difficulties they had in getting class.

It definitely did change the atmosphere of the game, but ultimately it was better for Achaea as more players had class and weren't subject to the often capricious whims of players. We tried working with guilds by reducing the rank required to get class from 5 to 3, but guilds continued to create too many barriers to players getting class.

With few exceptions, Aetolian guilds are much better at making it reasonably easy to gain class. Almost every guild I've looked at since Veovis left the Bloodborn has a clear path to class that is, more or less, free of unnecessary barriers. 

In the Carnifex (who are a particularly good example of how to do things right, with a couple exceptions), it's very easy to get class. GR2 involves getting a couple of easy levels and some cures and talking about why you want to be Carnifex. GR3 involves some silly busywork (like going to lessers and having to have them verified by a secretary) and also a neat role-play driven requirement to reap a powerful soul. You do those things, talk some more about why you want to be Carnifex, and then you get class.

Daskalos

Ifa guild is making it unreasonably hard for people on theirown side to get class, such as with Moirean's example,then perhaps the admin should look at it. Ask anyone withLuminary class how hard it was to get it, and they'll tell you the same thing: Just Ask. As long as you're not a guild\city enemy, you're pretty much getting the class.

Damonicus

Bloodborn was the same most of the time. Only time it probably took more is if they actually were of Spines, but majority of the time it was, Hey X wants class. Check...nothing bad,...quick post. No arguement in a few hours. Bam here is class.  As for tethering, only thing that is bad its the credit investment needed if someone was to switch sides. Even though I think thereis a report that changes that now. As for denying people class on the same side for rp reasons, well I know specifically of some examples. As it may be a slight deterant from the Rp arc I wanted. It dod not stop me from just going in a different way and still enjoying the game.