Abhorash Discussion

13

Comments

  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I feel like part of the Dominion's purpose at root is to provide something of a standardized, canon center for vampiric roleplay and culture (such as reaffirming that Vampires cannot in fact have babies, which was unfortunately something that actually had to be explained by admin because folk were still running amok with that).

    For you who are unhappy with him and the Dominion:

    What is the center of Vampire roleplay to you? What makes it definitely Consanguine?

    What are the purposes of the Houses to you? How would you rather see them differ/their themes better explored so that they are not essentially copy/pasted clubs with different wallpaper?

    How do you see Vampirism seated and integrated into the story of Sapience? With allied organizations? With enemies?

    In all of this I am not asking about mechanics or combative balances, but the RP. I think those would be some good discussion points for finding common ground and clarification between the playerbase and administration in terms of where things are going sideways, rather than focusing only on Abhorash where, at least as an outsider, this contention seems symptomatic of larger questions rather than him specifically.
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  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Idk I think the idea of exalting random players at all like YOU ARE NOW THE BOSS VAMPIRE FOR PERMANENT is a bit ? like, people go inactive, people lose drive, I think the RANKS at all kinda take more away than they add from the game. Pretty much makes any line of descent unpopular after 1-2 generations since no one wants to be the count of oniontown garbagebarrow. Devalueing later generations of players or discouraging or dis-incentivizing people who are more than a couple generations from the start from getting any childer at all cause newbs will turn their nose up at them.
    AlexinaArekaEmelle
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also I have to admit when I was a vampire, even ON THE COUNCIL of the Imperium I probably felt more inclined to keep the Imperium DOWN, as I felt like it was going to meddle in my affairs.
  • DristinDristin Member Posts: 625 Immortal
    I'm just doing one final chime in here, so I can address one thing. I know it's sad and frustrating that we seem to be backpedaling from previous promises concerning the resiring. However, when things change, decisions change, and we all know that. It's unfortunate, but I do think it's better that you all know one way or another rather than keep waiting for it to happen.
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  • VeovisVeovis FloridaMember Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    @Areka

    This has been a nagging question for a long time, like pretty much since the admin introduced the Undead and the original Teradrim into Aetolia. Vampires were originally played as being superior to the living, and there was a lot of role-play to back that up.

    After the introduction of the Undead, vampirism lost its uniqueness, and the class has continued to lose unique, defining features in the intervening years.

    What makes vampirism vampirism? Well, the answer to that is simple: it's vampirism. Should all vampires be united by some over-arching agenda? Do they all need to be nobles who sip from their blood flutes with pinky fingers out?

    We're the admin right that centralizing houses and having a dominating admin-backed figure would reinvigorate vampire role-play and make getting involved easier for newbies?

    The admin have a vision for vampires. They're strongly loyal to Abhorash, because he's the vampire babydaddy, and he has a grandiose vision that vampires should dominate Aetolia by, well, dominating stuff.


    Originally, vampires lived by the Legacies, which were a pretty frank White Wolf rip off. You were responsible for your progeny, all the way up the line to Abhorash. Nobody was immune to consequences if someone was a snot-nosed prat. You respected the one who made you, or he'd make you regret that he made you.

    There was a degree of cohesion and purpose. We wanted Bloodloch to become an empire and dominate Sapience. Vampires were, according to vampires, superior to everyone else. It was the vampire's destiny to be a great force within the land.

    That sense of cohesion and purpose started to ebb from the community pretty early on, leading to Kauller's coup. There were always vampires who felt that there was a different or better way to vampire, people like Jaeharn, Grontur, or Zoharim's founding of House Ve'kahi.

    The Imperium stood in opposition to people like the ones I mentioned above. We were the old guard, the sticks in the mud. We polished the silver, we put our pinkies out when we drank from blood flutes, and damn it, we were the ones with history, as opposed to all those others.

    Now, with the Dominion, there's not really any space for an other with the Dominion the way it is now, and Abhorash's omnipotence has a role in that. The Dominion really doesn't have anything to oppose or stand in opposition to, whereas, for all its flaws, the Imperium did. You could stand for something that was clear and definite by belonging or by not belonging.

    Now? The Primeval got shut down pretty quickly, and so did the reincarnation of House Bouchard. Nobody gets to stand in opposition to Abhorash in any meaningful or organized way, and in doing that there's no real room for conflict or engagement or meaning.

    As to Blood Rank, it has always been problematic. There's not really any clear reason why somebody is deserving of deference because they're a Prince versus a Count or a Baron. I don't really have anything insightful to say about Blood Rank, except I agree that it's problematic for players. We all want the shiny title, and now that @Ezalor and @Sarita are going to be the only two who get to start shiny new bloodlines, that's not really possible.
    Emelle
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,392 admin
    @Veovis, I have to say that I agree with the points you've made here. To clarify one thing, though: administratively, on an OOC level, we were rooting for the Bouchard revival to go somewhere, because it would have provoked interesting roleplay. I would like to think that in-character, we didn't do anything to discourage that arc from playing itself out, but this thread has shown that what we perceive as empty bluster on Abhorash's part can come across to the players as an attempt to squelch conflict.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
  • VeovisVeovis FloridaMember Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    Oleis said:

    @Veovis, I have to say that I agree with the points you've made here. To clarify one thing, though: administratively, on an OOC level, we were rooting for the Bouchard revival to go somewhere, because it would have provoked interesting roleplay. I would like to think that in-character, we didn't do anything to discourage that arc from playing itself out, but this thread has shown that what we perceive as empty bluster on Abhorash's part can come across to the players as an attempt to squelch conflict.

    @Oleis

    I don't want to seem like I'm dogging on you guys. I do realize that you're trying to do something that keeps your players engaged and recruits new customers.

    However, I think you've painted yourselves into a pretty small corner where Abhorash is concerned. Admin-controlled characters in IRE games have almost always spoken with louder voices and had more weight attributed to their actions. You all chose to make Abhorash more than he was, so when he says things like "Smash the Primeval" or 'Hey, Bouchard, change your name or I'll smash you," people believe it. Without the red name, the shadowy-divine-fire thing, the instakill & etc, it might have been possible for Abhorash's comments to be seen as bluster, but the context you've fashioned for him, it really isn't possible for him to do or say things like that without them being interpreted far differently than you perhaps intend them.


    Also, nobody really knows Abhorash anymore. He's just this super powerful jerkbutt who constantly dogs on the people that seem to be trying to do what he wants, and nobody knows how to take that. I think that the image of the absent, neglectful father is pretty perfect for him, now. He went away for a long time and make you scrape by, and now he's back and he wants you to love him like you're still five years old, but you're thirty.

    You guys seem to be pretty attached to him, so I hope you figure something out, although @Malok and I have a pretty quick solution for you >:)
    Malok
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: @Oleis

    I have no problems understanding or sympathizing with the fact that, sometimes, things do not work out as intended or that projects get sidetracked for one reason or another. That is not an issue to me, but it is deeply frustrating when we get told that something is happening, and then nothing is said or done for years. If I hadn't mentioned Abhorash's promise of embracing people in this thread, we still would have been under the assumption that it would eventually happen, and people (Riluo and Erzsebet primarily, but really, everyone else in their houses too) would be waiting for something that had been course-corrected.

    This was my main gripe; the admin/God team knows that they will not follow through on, or make changes to, previously announced events but do not communicate their intentions to the playerbase.

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    Malok
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    I was hoping the Bouchard thing would work on some level too. As perhaps a rebel house that would stand defiant against Nebre'seir and the Dominion. However it died out because Abhorash made us yield to his will and thus it ended abruptly. Well kind of as @Neoma still drops a flag at the old Bouchard entrance which makes me grin ooc. So she harbors her ill feelings along with Riluo I suppose about it all.

    With Emperors gone and other stuff from the past we had waited for. What sort of direction are we headed now? Do we get to give ideas or feedback by chance.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,392 admin
    Alexina said:

    Re: @Oleis

    I have no problems understanding or sympathizing with the fact that, sometimes, things do not work out as intended or that projects get sidetracked for one reason or another. That is not an issue to me, but it is deeply frustrating when we get told that something is happening, and then nothing is said or done for years. If I hadn't mentioned Abhorash's promise of embracing people in this thread, we still would have been under the assumption that it would eventually happen, and people (Riluo and Erzsebet primarily, but really, everyone else in their houses too) would be waiting for something that had been course-corrected.

    This was my main gripe; the admin/God team knows that they will not follow through on, or make changes to, previously announced events but do not communicate their intentions to the playerbase.

    You're absolutely right. This was/is, at times, our biggest strength, but torpor is deep in Aetolia's bones, and we're no exception. This is one of the times we failed to communicate.
    Riluo said:

    I was hoping the Bouchard thing would work on some level too. As perhaps a rebel house that would stand defiant against Nebre'seir and the Dominion. However it died out because Abhorash made us yield to his will and thus it ended abruptly. Well kind of as @Neoma still drops a flag at the old Bouchard entrance which makes me grin ooc. So she harbors her ill feelings along with Riluo I suppose about it all.

    With Emperors gone and other stuff from the past we had waited for. What sort of direction are we headed now? Do we get to give ideas or feedback by chance.

    We have a plan firming up that we like quite a bit. It's a giant departure from the original one I was championing a couple months ago, but it's superior in every way. Consider this thread your opportunity for feedback.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    RiluoAlexina
  • VeovisVeovis FloridaMember Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    @Riluo

    To be honest, I think it's pretty asinine that they're not going to embrace anymore new Abho progeny. While I'm sure that @Sarita and @Ezalor are cool people who've done much to make the game a cool place, I don't think they're any cooler than @Asaraii, you, or @Erzsebet. Further, you and @Erzsebet have been involved with making vampirism cooler for a lot longer than either @Sarita or @Ezalor. Yet, the new Emperors have been singled out for a singular honor, despite not really doing anything particularly new or novel; they've merely done what countless player leaders have done for the last thirteen years. The admin need to make good on their promise.

    Even though Abhorash is a bloody Muppet and the Dominion is as rudderless as the Imperium ever was, Abhorash Embracing somebody is a cool thing that tends to spike activity for a little bit.
    RiluoErzsebet
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    It is frustrating but we all know how it occurred.

    Anyway I just hope things get exciting again for the class.


    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • NeomaNeoma Member Posts: 120 ✭✭✭
    @Riluo @Oleis Oh Hey Bouchard! For those of you who were wishing Bouchard would make it... whatever gave you the impression it was dead. House Bouchard is working from a clan, with help files, a mandate and siring projects. It is slow going because we don't have access to the introduction adding us as a regular House but we manage to get some new recruits and we also pick up mature vampires, offering everyone an alternative to the suffocating air of the dominion and abhorash.

    House Bouchard is alive so to speak. Our long term plan is to be the one House outside the dominion, give people a choice! I do hope admin will look upon as such, a choice that is feasible and not just kill off anything we do.
    By the way we have more active people than some of the recognized houses. :p





    OleisRiluoVeovis
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,392 admin
    I was referring mostly to the active conflict between Bouchard and the vamp establishment, but I'm very glad things are still going!
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    Riluo
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2015
    Glad you kept it going as honestly I see a place for it in the overall scheme of things.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    Neoma
  • NeomaNeoma Member Posts: 120 ✭✭✭
    I see not only a place for a non dominion House but a NEED for it. And House Bouchard is that House!
    Veovis
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    Here is why people are over this. How about consistency in your messages to the player base and less jabs at the people making things occur. This seems to be a theme with certain admin playing Abh on the day as these posts just piss of players more than motivate them. It is almost like the last Emperor(ess) thing all over again that was about ooc friends benefits vs what the player base desires.
    DOMINION NEWS #21
    Date: 10/3/2015 at 15:17
    From: Primus Abhorash Nehekhara
    To : Dominus, Prince Riluo Nebre'seir
    Subj: Be Quiet

    Do NOT call out other houses if they do not vote in favor of something brought to the Council. Do NOT put words in My mouth as if I said something that I did not. If you do any of this again, trust Me when I say that you and yours of Nebre'seir will not enjoy it.

    Enjoy the bloodhunt that YOU all chose to make happen of your own free will, not by My specific direction, and carry on. Stop feeling like you must show off yourself as superior when it just makes you appear far more inferior.

    -Primus Abhorash Nehekhara

    Penned by my hand on Falsday, the 18th of Arios, in the year 454 MA.

    < Previous Article Next Article >
    So over this kind of BS and to be frank it stinks when all we hear is, "I wish the vampires would act like vampires". Then the moment we do this kind of thing raises its ugly head with one admin saying one thing and another saying something else.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    Malok
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    Uhm.

    I thought that post was meant to be an IC thing. Like, Abhorash (the character, not the admin) not being pleased with whatever Riluo (the character, not you as a player) posted. There's lots of mob possession and npc roles in all the muds I ever played, but only in Aetolia does people make the IC to OOC jump.

    If you feel like Abhorash is being inconsistent, then speak up about it. Make a respectful post in the Dominion, not to challenge authority or whatever, but to point out that 'hey, you said this thing before, I wanted to show some initiative and do rawr vampire things so why the upset tone?'

    I promise you, you will get a heck of a better response from that than you ever will from making a forum post about the admins pulling stinky bullmanure (in the first case, they get a chance to show off their NPC's motives or personality or whatever, in the latter, you're basically attacking them as people and saying their RP isn't valid). Of course, it's perfectly acceptable to have different expectations from admin/Divine-controlled personas and actual player characters.

    Again, accusations of favouritism is not something you'd want to rant about on the forums. Rather, if you feel like it's a real problem in the game, contact either Razmael, or (if you're not happy with whatever he's got to say) write to the IRE boss. I can't really think of any response that'd be more approriate when encountering potential misconduct from admins/Divines/etc.

    Anyways. Posting valid, constructive criticism in a polite tone is something that the people running this game usually listens to.
    image
    IshinAnfiniAarbrokDristin
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    Its was brought here and made ooc because it is always the same thing happening and I am not alone in this either, I just have less of a filter when made to feel attacked. It is becoming insulting that anytime I try to motivate people I become a scape goat.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    AarbrokMalok
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't really understand the concern here. It looks like Riluo tried to puff up a bit and Abhorash basically said, "Sit down, pup. You are not the boss."

    I would not expect the king of vampires to be cheerful about that kind of reprimand. Are you upset about Abhorash being played inconsistently, or are you upset that you got your hand smacked a bit?

    Confused.

    IshinAarbrokMalok
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    The last few events from what I see as a player involving the Dominion have involved Abhorash being pissed off because @Riluo as a character has done something stupid, the Gaes event from what I saw was something fueled by @Riluo which ultimately led to a big mess for Abhorash, it seems like more often than not it is something being presented as @Riluo screwing up and Abhorash being incredibly patient since they cant do something dramatic like take away your vampirism for disobeying his will, perhaps heeding his advice would be a good start, historically it looks like Nebre'seir is doing unicorns their own way and he is trying to reign you all in.

    I'm not bashing on you as a player mate, just saying the character has p much every reason to have Abhorash's Ire


    Solution: Delete Vampires (Mostly kidding)
    IshinRashar
  • MalokMalok Member Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    Alright, here's the deal. There's a bunch of you in this thread that aren't in the Dominion, acting like you know what goes on in the Dominion. Ganging up on @Riluo for being frustrated is not something I think any of you should be doing, and is rather lame and misinformed.

    Abhorash has a history of telling us one thing, then when we do it, he derides us for it like in the aforementioned post. It is very annoying, frustrating, and antithesis to any sort of progress in the Dominion. Though, like has been mentioned before in this thread, there really isn't anything we can do about it. You can all sit there, outside of the Dominion, and claim that we can by RP, but trust me, it's just not possible.

    So please, quit trying to have an opinion on an organization you are not a part of, particularly when it is trying to troll someone who is a Council member of it and knows way better than you do how the interactions with Abhorash go.
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
    DidiRasharAarbrokAreka
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nobody is ganging up on anyone - Riluo is certainly one of the more respected active members of Bloodloch, in my mind anyway. That said, if you come to the forums with bits and pieces of a story and people draw a conclusion from it, chances are it's your fault for a) coming to the forums with an IC issue and b) not presenting the entire tale anyway.

    Regardless, this is a public forum and opinions are ours to give and not yours to forbid. Sorry. Player to player moderation never works. I don't see anything in the above posts that would come anywhere close to trolling, but I suppose everyone has their own levels of sensitivity.
    MalokAarbrokArekaIshin
  • DiogenDiogen Member Posts: 181 Immortal
    Let's not go any further down that path.

    DristinAarbrok
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have to agree with Malok.

    So. I still believe that it is not beneficial for anyone to accuse the admins of favouritism/nepotism or making OOC jabs at people for trying to create activity (if this is how Riluo perceives the suggestion, I wholeheartedly stand by my previous claim that constructive criticism in a polite tone is something that the people running this game usually listens to), but to then belittle his and others' frustration in regards to Abhorash or the Dominion is just going to create bitterness for all the people involved.

    At the end of the day, we immerse in roleplaying games because we think it is fun. It is an escape from reality and a way to relax and channel our creativity into a shared experience with other people. I've been mudding for almost fifteen years now, and I've seen plenty of vengeful, evil, narcissistic, self-righteous, and all sorts of evil stereotype admin mobs/Gods/whatever. All of them did their very best to be an antagonist for their enemies, a leader for their minions, and something terrifying for everyone. If I got up in a leadership position, and the people running the game consistently decided that they wanted to spend time and leadership trying to make me feel like I was failing/not living up to their expectations/only got negative feedback, I'd probably feel a bit like Riluo is right now.

    I'm not trying to cast any sort of judgment on Abhorash's RP or criticise his performance in this particular scenario, because I simply don't know the details. I just recently rejoined the Dominion, and haven't heard much over the channel since then. It's just that my fondest memories from playing muds are from those rare and precious moments when Someone With Great Power (imms/divine/etc) not only roleplays with me, but commends me for my actions or intentions. Telling people how lowly and insignificant and how you will punish them is fine if the situation calls for it, but when it becomes a habit, you end up with a NPC role that's more of a bother than a benefit. It's a delicate line, for sure.

    I still am not sure what function Abhorash or the Dominion fulfills. If they were both deleted tomorrow, I'm not sure I'd notice much of a difference, whereas if the same thing happened with my guild/Yetrent/etc, I'd have some actual impact on me in game.
    image
    Malok
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    @Alexina - I think the criticism given has been more talking points of how things operate, I do not believe anyone has said anything negative, in fact I think we have given reasoning or perception. You are trending on this line of playing the devils advocate and sealing your letters with a sugar coated kiss, which for all intents and purposes may be the kindest way to not necessarily find a solution to a problem by means of running around in circles over actual evidence that has been presented.

    The problem is and this has been generally justified in an IC venue where many have been made very aware of the Dominion and the Primus intents including the edicts which are supposed to be followed by -all- of the Dominion. Be it that people want to follow them or not that is of their own choice and roleplay, this is not the remarks of someone being sour towards the vampire community this is from a former vampire who left the Dominion when the Dominion changed from the Imperium. The people who stayed are claiming to uphold these edicts and pay respects and homage to their great leader to the effect of houses gaining emperors/empresses etcetera. Nevertheless the trend coming from Nebre'seir is to declare these grandiose events in the name of the Primus without confirming with him firsthand, the first event the Gaes event was started by Riluo inciting a rebellion in the Vampires, to which he was pubicly chastised by Abhorash - Vampires and Non Vampires publicly were present for this.

    It is perfectly within roleplay for Abhorash to have a sour attitude, so my constructive criticism for the day so that I may also oblige by the rules of the forums and not offend anyone personally is to ask kindly and politely for the Consanguine community to suppress their mouths in lieu for their ears once in a while because Abhorash has been very clear and I think it would be most beneficial and prudent that when things do not go favorably to the way people want it, it is because an Admin or other like minded sort is doing their best to cooperate with a situation and steer it in the right direction.

    So while being Constructive and kind may be the bees knees, this was made an OOC rant from an IC standpoint which should be handled in game and the subject matter at hand has been given many IC opportunities from what can be seen by everyone save for the Vampire community who is so wrapped up in their own agenda they are not able to.

    I hope this was kind and friendly enough, being honest sometimes stings...but thats my perception and I think its pretty on point.
    ArekaRasharMalok
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    I won't bring this here in the future it was a bit of a heated issue but trust me there is more to what is being said insofar as mixed messages and only partial aspects of the full picture.

    In terms of the Gaes it was a event I asked for and part of that was for Riluo to be made to look a certain way so the whole it is Riluo's fault was part of that and for a reason. This recent thing is more frustration at the inconsistency of how things are handled and the way it gets conveyed.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    AarbrokMalok
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    Re: Aarbrok

    I am not exactly sure why you think I'm playing the devil's advocate -- it seemed pretty obvious that Riluo was frustrated by recent events, to which he responded in a way that will not really resolve any of the issues he has. I clearly offered suggestions as to what he could do instead, and yet for some reason you claim -I- am the one running this thread in a circle. Personally, I wouldn't want to be part of a community where you couldn't discuss and have opinions about the problems you or your friends might experience. My post was followed by a string of comments in the tone of 'get over yourself/you did stupid things/you're so mad OOC when you got what you deserve' which apparently you feel were justified, even though an admin stepped in and told everyone to not go down that path.

    In regards to Abhorash's overall leadership: we have a great thread on the forums called The Guildmaster's Guide. Essentially, the most successful leaders in Aetolia were able to make the game super fun for anyone involved in their organizations. You don't have to be a nice or pleasant person to do this, but you have to be able to engage the people under you. I want to be excited about the Dominion. I really, really, really want to be excited about it, because the vampire genre is one of my favourites when it comes to roleplaying games.

    So, yeah, I don't have any of the solutions you were asking for, but I genuinely believe that it is better to communicate your expectations, hopes, issues, etc with other people in the community than just be quiet because you don't have the perfect answer to the problems yet. Perhaps someone else does. Or perhaps someone else has the same thoughts, and decide to share them as well.

    I don't know. Saying that I'm part of the problem because I decide to participate in the forums just seems pretty crass.
    image
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