Abhorash Discussion

Dristin

I think a little info on some events that have happened in the last few months might be good for perspective. No, you won't likely ever see Abhorash cured, but think of it this way as to why he acts like he does - Belladona was full of herself and got tricked into being cured. He is much like she was, except far more careful as to what happens to him and what he does. He trusts practically no one because of what happened to his sire, I'm sure. Why would he?

Now, this leads me to the event that happened a few months back. A group of vamps called the Gaes group managed to chain Abhorash down and were going to drag him off to be forcibly cured and be done with his tyranny. The Gaes group was made up, mostly, of people who left houses of the Dominion because of how he was mostly 'sleeping' and allowed main houses - like Nebre'seir - treat them poorly. Obviously, it didn't work because he was able to call upon the Dominion to come help him. After he was free he had the Dominion slaughter all of them as often as they could. He gave both bad and good recognition to those that participated. Those outside the Dominion were not allowed to participate and he had no interest in letting them participate - just ask Zsadist. I think that this event really sets up a lot of Abhorash's mindset even further on those outside of the Dominion while also providing RP for those who do not like him.

I don't have a ton else to add, but there are always options. One may not be able to, officially, destroy Abhorash or punish him severely - but you can try. There is no reason -not- to try in the sense of RP. Will it be harder and you be in the minority? Sure. Does it mean your RP and desire to see Abhorash done for is invalid? Definitely not. Try interacting with him and explore what sort of RP you want.

Neoma

Neoma interacted with Abhorash a while back, in messages only but IC. It went back and forth for a while. He treats everyone like garbage, EVERYONE, even vamps that are in Houses. So I get it that he is supposed to be a hard nose sob but I think he goes overboard.

For those wondering why so many vamps are rogues, he is part of the reason. And I can say this the day he would cure me for being rogue is the day I would quit Aetolia. Simply because I feel that would be an abuse of power from admin and an extremely bad RP.

Nalor

When I spoke to him (on my living alt in tells) he replied just like anyone would reply at the conversation we had..

Maybe it's more over the years vampires have pretty much done nothing and need to show him they loyalty? He does the blood hunts etc but yet, No one really takes part or sticks to what he says.

BEFORE anyone complains I've not spoken to him in any vampire form, and only really spoken to him to tell him his 'race' eg vampires are pathetic and cowards which he replied like any 'gm/house head/leader' would reply.. This is more an observation from the other side of the fence.

Oleis

Malok said:

However, Abhorash acts far differently than a God character and used to be played by an actual player in his conception. These are the differences.

Aarbrok said:

From a roleplay standpoint, the old Abhorash that existed when played by a player died a very long time ago, he ascended to the form which he is today, that would be like holding Maghak responsible for Galleus actions, or looking back at the many incarnations of Slyphe....

This is one of the most pervasive rumors/misconceptions that I've encountered in IRE (second only to my apparently being a woman). Just so everyone is aware: Abhorash has only ever been an administrative character. He was never played by an average player. His power and influence have grown with time, but he has only changed hands from volunteer to volunteer, just like a god shell.

Veovis

Sarita said:

I've seen a few references to the instakill stuff that Abhorash has now, but I think it's worth remembering that Belladona essentially had the same thing when she was an NPC, and she was aggro towards certain characters (I think male ones?) as a general rule.

It has been a rather long time since I've encountered Belladona, but I don't remember her having an instakill. She hurt, and I seem to remember her hurting a lot, but you could bash her if you tried and were lucky enough.

Veovis died a few times, at her hand, after protecting her from would-be assailants. Makes sense, considering he literally built a shrine to her, unless Nebre'seir has gotten rid of it.

I don't really care that the instakill or instacure exists. I care that it exists in the hands of a character who has pretty much behaved like a toddler every time he didn't get his way, and that character has been godmoded to such an extent that he can't be challenged. I can't go beat the snot out of him, or have someone go beat the snot out of him, for Embracing Kauller and then abandoning the vamppire race for centuries. He can't be thrown out of Bloodloch, because, quite frankly, he was a horribly stifling tyrant in the eyes of many characters, and maybe he shouldn't have a rank beyond CR1. He's just completely immune to any consequences.

My character has done all kinds of crazy things. He robbed Bloodloch to give the gold to Abhorash. He threw out prominent Bouchard/Bahir'an supporters, stripping them of cityrank. He threw a wrench into the political workings of Bloodloch out of spite when his plot was uncovered.

He's lost cityrank, guildrank, gold, lessons, and all sorts of things because he's going to face the consequences for his actions. That's happened multiple times. It happens to every character, including Gods, when they do things. In Aetolia, actions have consequences for god and mortal alike, unless you're Abhorash.

Aarbrok said:

Based on actions, roleplay, considerations of the 'once-character played' Abhorash, would it not be considerate to think, he has achieved the ascension beyond what would have been played by a player. Has he not Absorbed Ati, has he not taken over the helm of the Blood by means of the deaths of the former figureheads. From a roleplay standpoint, the old Abhorash that existed when played by a player died a very long time ago, he ascended to the form which he is today, that would be like holding Maghak responsible for Galleus actions, or looking back at the many incarnations of Slyphe....

Development works both ways, some things are owned up to, but the arrogance of a Consanguine and especially one who holds the key to basically the free will of an entire bloodline that BY CHOICE has decided to follow him as a figurehead, you don't have to be a vampire, but by doing so you have signed up for it, you dont have to like it, but it was a cognizant decision you as a player made.

EDIT: I hope I am not coming off rude or anything, I am just kinda sharing my perspective, I hope it doesn't seem that way.

We didn't choose to follow Abhorash by choice. The choice was made for us. It was fine when he actually had to work to command loyalty through cultivating a cult of personality and through his progeny (Zahmekoses and Zoharim could be quite persuasive back then). He could make mistakes and still suffer for them. He didn't have a get out of jail free card.

I'm willing to acknowlege that Abhorash has ascended beyond what he was in the context of the Lore. However, I think the admin have gone way, way too far with Abhorash. When you have a character who is essentially omnipotent and shielded from the consequences of actions spanning hundreds of years, it's just not fun.

The big issue really is that you can tell a difference between Maghak and Galleus. They're different, not just because they have different names, but because they have different motivations, different traits, different faults, and different strengths. Abhorash? Nope. Old Abhorash and new Abhorash aren't very different at all.

I get that a lot of you guys like it. I get that a lot of you guys don't really see why it's a problem. I get that players like me, who've had characters in vampire culture from somewhere around the first month or two of Aetolia are, at this point, a very small minority.

The big thing for me is that the way he's being played, he pretty much just shuts stuff down. My character can't even say "Look, centuries ago I risked everything for you, and I suffered greatly for it. Now, I have nothing left, because you've taken the last thing that mattered to me and prostituted it out to any vampire with half a functioning brain cell. I'm out." He just shuts down any attempt at interaction, unless it's OOC on a web.

Veovis

Oleis said:

This is one of the most pervasive rumors/misconceptions that I've encountered in IRE (second only to my apparently being a woman). Just so everyone is aware: Abhorash has only ever been an administrative character. He was never played by an average player. His power and influence have grown with time, but he has only changed hands from volunteer to volunteer, just like a god shell.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Abhorash was always played by an admin. However, he had to play more or less like a normal player-character. If he mouthed off to Strung, Strung could beat the tar out of him for it. If he became too much of a tyrant for Bloodloch, Bloodloch could throw him out. If he proved himself to be a foolish and ineffective leader, he could be ignored, just as we'd do for anyone.

He was one of the few admin-controlled characters in IRE history who didn't fall in to the "I'm so powerful, you can't touch this!" category; and, as I've said in the past, this is what made him awesome. He didn't get to rely on zap or divine fire or a green name on QW. He made his own bed and he had to sleep in it.

Trigru

@Oleis isn't a woman!?

Veovis

Trigru said:

@Oleis isn't a woman!?

There's no conclusive proof that he isn't.

Obyn

I'm going to point out, regarding the argument that he has 'infinite power' that in recent events he did consume a being who you all were shown had the ability to actually wound Sapience's gods in meaningful ways. I don't know if I can speak for the rest of the admins, but I personally would consider Abhorash to be at least a demi-deity at this point.

Areka

Some of this touches on past arguments with our inability to really damage the Gods. I think there are simply two spheres of thought for how much our characters should be able to influence in the grand scheme of things. There are certainly some valid frustrations when lines are crossed, however like with the Gods, I at least like that there are powers we simply cannot contend with as we would anyone else or any other NPC. It gives a greater scale to the world, so that while we are definitely stronger than the average joe, we are still dwarfed by something else.

Sarita

We didn't choose to follow Abhorash by choice. The choice was made for us. It was fine when he actually had to work to command loyalty through cultivating a cult of personality and through his progeny (Zahmekoses and Zoharim could be quite persuasive back then). He could make mistakes and still suffer for them. He didn't have a get out of jail free card.

That's really not true. Every House in the Dominion had to make a conscious decision to join or not. It was not assumed that after the purge, the remaining ones would automatically belong to it. Rogues exist and are not punished unless they actively speak out against the Blood as a whole or attempt to undermine it. To my knowledge, only one player was cured that way, and that was with his consent. The Gaes group was also punished, but to a lesser extent. He has said to the Dominion that any other rogues are not to be harmed.

As far as the idea of him having not had any consequences for his actions, he was kicked out of Bloodloch for quite a while. I'm guessing that if the players really wanted to do something more drastic, that could happen again. It hasn't because the majority of the citizens are absolutely fine with his return, his creation of the Dominion, and his becoming a dominant force among their society.

Zsadist

As a whole, I think Abhorash does suffer for his actions, maybe not on a large scale, but on a small scale.

One example is the fact that upon consuming Ati, he has gained a personal enemy in @Trikal (who now wants to kill Abhorash and any vamp who PKs during midnight) AND in my opinion, is the sole reason why the vampires burn so much in the noon sun.

Another example is like @Dristin said, during the Gaes event. Sure, some rogues chained him down and were going to force the cure on him. Great! As a prior Rogue, this gave me a reason to be like 'Oh cool! Now is the time to show Mr Big Boss that not all Rogues are terrible and maybe he can learn to trust us.' Instead, he chose to ignore Zsadist's offer to help, which in turn, made Zsadist not want to help Abhorash and instead wanted to see how effective the Dominion members were compared to how effective the Rogues would have been. In my opinion, I think the Rogues would have done a far better job and more complete job than Dominion members (too bad there were campers in the Gaes area).

A third example is the fact that at the time I was a Rogue, there were just as many great Rogue fighters as there were Dominion fighters. So really, if the Rogues wanted to... they could have banded together and killed pretty much everyone in Bloodloch to get to Abhorash and make him see them as a force to be reckoned with, which is exactly what Abhorash wants in his progeny. But because he chose to look down on Rogues, all the Rogues just went '/shrug/ Cool story bro. Not our problem. Have fun with your non-existent Dominion members. Kbai!'

I'd also like to point out that gods like Slyphe, Iosyne, Maghak, Damariel suffer for their actions too. Consequences is all in how you view said consequences. It may be small, insignificant, or completely miniscule, but its still a consequence.

All this being said, I personally don't mind how Abhorash is played because I use Abhorash as my RP furthering point in trying to get him to trust Zsadist as a warrior and someone that can be relied upon, regardless of whether or not he fails/succeeds in what he's told. However, on the flip side of that coin.... I don't like getting reprimanded for fighting outside an area of a Bloodhunt when all I was doing is either self-defense or giving back what was handed to me. I'm a vampire who's sole purpose of a Bloodhunt is to kill those involved. Don't get snippy with us because we decide to chase a few high horse lifers down for chasing us around Aetolia.

Aishia

Well yeah I mean everyone could just start rolling their eyes and sipping from their blood flutes every time he talks.

Asaraii

The player base of the Dominion is 90% loner types who either afk/non-rpers for the majority of the time, shack up in havens to mudsex for hours, just don't want to do any sort of RP outside of their little niches, or just feel entitled and better than the rest of us. If there was a player-organized way to overthrow Abhorash or kick him out, I'd probably quit playing as a vampire, and that's honestly the only thing that kept me interested in Aetolia in the first place.

The majority of the players that want to do any sort of political upheaval or plotting are players that I find to be absolutely worthless in terms of making Aetolia a productive environment for EVERYONE. They're the people who are greedy for power and use borderline metagamy and ooc ways to get power, then sit in it, contribute absolutely nothing to it, and let it run into the ground. I would rather have a divine-like presence that's snarky and powerful being a snarky and powerful, because at least then I know the admin regulate that role heavily and it isn't just some jerkoff doing it because he/she can. Abhorash creates conflicting emotions in my character and I honestly enjoy that more than I do being irritated with bratty players.

Sorry if that came off really rude. But let's be honest with ourselves here. Without Abhorash, the Dominion would have no forward motion. Player base can't regulate itself or work together to pull off what Abhorash does, sadly. Even look at the way Imperian cried for years over their Divine, that admin finally killed them all off and gave them the opportunity to literally make their own religion, and they still aren't happy with that. It's actually worse off now and they are miserable about it, because very few players will actually work hard enough to create an enjoyable environment for all of those involved, not just themselves.

Rashar

People are inherently selfish, I think. And maybe even more so because it's so easy to tell yourself it's just a game and hey, I should just try to get my kicks when I can. We want our shiny and we want it now, and when we have it we're going to sit and brandish it and use it to get high fives and e-bj's from our buddies or fans. And who really cares about the rest? That's the admin job, you know. Making the rest of the game happy.

And if you do try to sort of take a step back and work towards a larger environmental benefit, you're guaranteed to get people on your own side or in XYZ demographic bitching at you or complaining because you don't seem to have -just- their interest in mind. As bad as Moirean could be in regards to a lot of things, she was the most willing person I have seen to sit down and talk about, hey. How can we do this for -everyone-? Every time I tried to work with her or get people on board, I felt like I was a step away from being drawn and quartered by my own side. I imagine she felt a lot of the same pressure, though maybe not. I'm sure this is just a pressure that everyone is going to feel, and is why we're limited in what we can do gamewide as mortals. Peer pressure is a bitch, and that contest button isn't ever far away (for those that care about positions).

Quite frankly, I'm glad that the single most influencial entity on that side of the game is an admin shell, whether you all like him as a personality or not.

I'm quite sure you don't want the Indostuds (who seem to me from an outside perspective to be some of the biggest complainers -and- some of the biggest problems in regards to the above) having that sort of authority, or have the continuity in your purpose changing as many times as player politics seem to change around here.

I certainly don't want bloodhunts called every week by a person who gets giggles out of mass extermination and newbie bashing, or by someone with no self control when it comes to getting their high fives between trolly grief antics and mudorgies.

If you want the power to overthrow Abhorash, I think the only option would be to dissolve it all entirely and at least let BL be a loose collective of people who -don't- feel obligated to obey whichever player group has the biggest current e-peen.

Edited for phone typo fixing!

Teani

As @Zsadist mentioned, I don't think saying Abhorash doesn't suffer any consequences is correct, only that he suffers them on such a small scale that it is dismissable in the grand scheme of things. If more people were actually disgruntled ICly, there would be more of a movement to support those who work against his "absolute will and edicts" and bonded together.

I'm not saying I think that would be the best thing. From my perspective, I see a few individuals who stick to their stories, their lives and their RP even if it goes against the Primus, playing it out as if they know that at any moment he can smack his foot down and turn their lives upside down. It makes for an interesting situation for a rogue vampire, I think.

In other words, it's not so much that you can't do anything to him, as he's high and mighty admin-run and all. There's obviously an agenda behind that character. It's, perhaps, that your own agenda is not strong enough to influence his. So run with yours and see where it takes you?

My 2 cents and I haven't even played a Vampire, so what do I know, eh?

Veovis

Obyn said:

I'm going to point out, regarding the argument that he has 'infinite power' that in recent events he did consume a being who you all were shown had the ability to actually wound Sapience's gods in meaningful ways. I don't know if I can speak for the rest of the admins, but I personally would consider Abhorash to be at least a demi-deity at this point.

I am aware of that. That's part of my problem with Abhorash.

Veovis

Sarita said:

We didn't choose to follow Abhorash by choice. The choice was made for us. It was fine when he actually had to work to command loyalty through cultivating a cult of personality and through his progeny (Zahmekoses and Zoharim could be quite persuasive back then). He could make mistakes and still suffer for them. He didn't have a get out of jail free card.

That's really not true. Every House in the Dominion had to make a conscious decision to join or not. It was not assumed that after the purge, the remaining ones would automatically belong to it. Rogues exist and are not punished unless they actively speak out against the Blood as a whole or attempt to undermine it. To my knowledge, only one player was cured that way, and that was with his consent. The Gaes group was also punished, but to a lesser extent. He has said to the Dominion that any other rogues are not to be harmed.

As far as the idea of him having not had any consequences for his actions, he was kicked out of Bloodloch for quite a while. I'm guessing that if the players really wanted to do something more drastic, that could happen again. It hasn't because the majority of the citizens are absolutely fine with his return, his creation of the Dominion, and his becoming a dominant force among their society.

I'm talking about a much longer period of time than recently. The Dominion is a fairly new thing or The Imperium Take Four.

You're correct. Abhorash was thrown out of Bloodloch. He was, more or less, a normal player character who could face the consequences for his actions. He was a tyrant. He had locked down Bloodloch's political structure to a point where citizens decided that they had to get rid of him. He wasn't specially coded in to Bloodloch with a custom cityrank and special admin-shell only powers. He was just the Keeper, and he was replaced with a 3/5ths vote like anyone else. With the direction the admin have chosen to go, making him essentially a demi-god, that sort of thing is no longer possible.

Areka

You are correct that that is no longer possible, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. There are things in the world, and things that relate to our characters, that are beyond our control. There are things more powerful than us, more entrenched than us, that we need to find a way to adapt to rather than expecting to be able to cut it out or get rid of it. This adds a greater scope to the world and our place in it.

I understand that this is difficult with both players with such a long history as well as characters that have evolved throughout that time (SOMEONE keeps reminding me that things that really irk me happened multiple RL years ago, though for me it's still fresh as if it were last week). However, the time HAS passed, and hard as it is, we need to adapt and find room because railing against it won't get us anywhere or change the new, current reality.

Erzsebet

Asaraii said:

Without Abhorash, the Dominion would have no forward motion.

The Dominion still has no forward motion. Forcing us to bloodhunt once in a blue moon, doesn't change the fact that it's just as stagnating and useless as the Imperium was before it.

My biggest problem with Abhorash personally, at least the biggest one I'll discuss here, is that his character isn't consistent between people playing him.

And I know that the people playing him are different and that that makes it harder, but keeping some notes on file or something so that the next person that picks him up can be consistent can't be that hard a thing to do. If (and I know these aren't the players behind him, just for example purposes) Oleis plays him one week, and he absolutely hates Erz's guts or whatever, he should still hate her two weeks later when Razmael takes over and plays him instead. Inverse is also true. And so on and so forth.

Don't think he should be all sunshine and flowers--he's meant to be an arrogant asshole and that's fine, but I still also feel like he's downing on all of the houses (not just mine) in a way that belittles the effort the houseleaders put into their organizations. Honestly, seeing Abhorash log on anymore, much less seeing him talk, especially when he's being a total dick to people, makes me want to log off, even when it's not directed at me.

Alexina

Disclaimer:
I have not been in the Dominion for a long while and I pretty much stopped logging on to Aetolia for a while. I still feel like I want to participate in this conversation.

To me, the Dominion only felt like a thing for the first few months of its existence. There were things going on, people could easily get involved, opinions mattered, Abhorash was back with a fury. There was an IRE newsletter - an official IRE newsletter - that hyped up the whole thing, promising Abhorash would embrace four characters, but as far as I know, this has still not happened (I think there's two or three so far?). We got Elder members of the houses, but only a set, limited amount, and at least in the House I belonged to, those positions were handed out to characters that had not been playing for years. I initially felt a lot of excitement because there was a lot of stuff going on and things were happening for the Houses, but subsequentially felt disappointment because I never personally found a way to become part of this new fancy, shiny thing. It basically became a new IC clan.

So. The Dominion as a whole was implemented, but it's still an umbrella organization; there is no real common ground for members of house D'baen to meet with Ve'kahi once every thursday and discuss what is going on because essentially the houses are still working as independent entities. The leadership of the Dominion is Abhorash -- without him, the organization is meaningless. When I was active in the Dominion, he was never around, he never did or say anything, and the Dominion mattered nothing in my character's day-to-day life. There were no ranks in the Dominion. No way to progress. No way to feel like you were making a difference in the organization, or that you could be recognized for your efforts to further the Dominion's agenda. Like Erzsebet pointed out, this is basically the Imperium all over again. Compare the vampire game now with 5 years ago, and all that's happened is that we got fewer houses. There's no stage for inter-House politics/competition.

I think there might have been a lack of communication in regards to the Dominion's purpose when it was first established. I still don't feel like I could tell my friends about Aetolia and really explain what the Dominion is about, because I simply don't know myself. There's no Dominion gatherings, there's no Dominion conflict, there's no Dominion anything. There is no tangible incentive to try and get people involved in the Dominion, either. I typically couldn't log on for five hour and spend them getting involved in Dominion. Bloodloch, sure. My guild or house, heck yes. But the Dominion? Nope. Perhaps I approached things the wrong way.

Veovis

To be honest, there has never really been a successful vampire umbrella organization. All of the Imperiums were player led, and they eventually stagnated. We dissolved at least two of them that I can remember.

I'm not sure what the point of these umbrella organizations actually is. They've never been able to do anything meaningful. The whole point of the vampire class was to have freedom from silly guild requirements and ideals and to allow players to decide on their own what mattered in giving class. The Dominion is the antithesis of that.

Maybe it's time for Abhorash to go jump in a volcano and for the admin to embrace the things that make the vampire class unique instead of trying to exert control over it. There's no need for that kind of control and there never has been.

Dristin

We've got plans in the works for a lot of organizations, including the Dominion and vampires. This includes the fact that we likely won't see anyone being resired by Abhorash beyond who have at this point. I wouldn't expect to see anything done promptly either, but we're always evaluating things behind the scenes.

Riluo

That kind of sucks to hear that each house is not getting a Emperor given it was a promise from an unnamed admin that the last two of us had it coming soon(™) (this was several real months ago).

Anyway moving along.

In terms of the Dominion it is a sad fact it never took off but it could be made to do things if it had more territory disputes between houses or objective based scenarios that benefit a house that lays claim to certain conditions.

As for vampires, the class is fun it just lacks that feeling of "oh no vampires run" that it once had and this shows when you look at the lack of active vampire fighters and the high volume of the shadow side that are using other classes to pk instead. I do think the night day system was a fantastic change and step in the right direction to make vamps more dynamic, although if I could tweak it in an ideal world it would be nice to see the midnight/noon aspect lengthened. Indeed making the midnight part gradually decrease over 10 mins would be nice and the same with noon so that it gives more time for each side to gain a advantage.

Then you have the classic give vampires extra blood powers with age debate that gets tossed aound every year or two.

What would be nice in this vein -pun- is to have quests for vamps that unlock small tweaks upon completion:

- Thicker blood (3% increase in blood reserves)
- Clean kill (1% more blood from feeding)
- Nocturnal rage (2% increase to npc damage at night)
- Mark of "house_name" (gives each house a customise frenzy message.. bit like an attack scroll idea) example:
**Slashing her claws across a mhun's face, Erzsebet yells, "Screw you Abhorash House Ve'kahi does not have daddy issues."
/jk Erz you just happened to be the leader.

Non-quest related bonuses (age based or house rank based)

- Folklore of the Elder (random npc's will react at your entrance once you reach a certain rank in a house or a set age) For Example:
**(Little Timmy's eyes widen in horror as Bob enters from the west.)
**(Dropping a glass goblet to the stone floor a plump bartender takes a few steps back frozen in fear, "Lady Snowflake.", he manages to state in a fearful tone.
-Abhorash blessing (once per year you can kneel before his throne in Alzacar to gain a 24 hour blessing)
- Ancient blood (1% blood regen every 30 mins)

Obviously these are a bit silly but you get the idea.

Malok

I'd like to think, honestly, most of us in the Dominion are more loyal and interested in being loyal to our Houses than we are the Dominion. This is because we respect our Houses's history and our time in it, being that we spend so much time invested in it as Vampires. There is like no investment whatsoever for us in the Dominion. The Dominion is an organization forced at us by a character that commands respect but has no basis on which to be respected. That's really the simple fact of the matter. Most of us in character and out of character both at this point would like to see nothing more than Abhorash done away with.

The basis of the Dominion and Abhorash has been rehashed and rebooted more times than Spiderman.

The individual Houses are by far more interesting than the Dominion. That is the fact of the matter. The characters and players behind the leadership in each House are far more interesting, fair, and wise and smart than Abhorash. This is also a fact.

If Abhorash was played in a better way befitting of a leader, then these facts may all be different. It's just not the case.

The thing I'm really curious about though in regards to all of this, truthfully, is how Vampires in Aetolia have always since day 1 been the unique/interesting/drawing point for most people who come to the game initially. Wow, a cool dark gothic game with vampires and werewolves. Wow, an awesome IRE game that has Vampires, sweet!

So why then does it always seem like the path taken is to continually weaken the Praenomen class over the past decade of the game being open while simultaneously making the roleplay with Abhorash/Dominion more dull/disinteresting?

I do not understand the strategy with what has traditionally been the most compelling facet of Aetolia. Being a Vampire does not seem like the powerful thing that Abhorash makes it out to be. It used to be, but not anymore.

I'm sure @Riluo knows exactly what I mean, having had a character as a Vampire almost as long as I have. Am I wrong with what I'm saying here? I dunno, I don't really think so.

Aarbrok

I personally quit being a vampire, because there was no Vampire roleplay. I mean sure, some folks have their 'idea' of vampire roleplay, but the sort that is supposed to be done, is not done because the players refuse to abide by it and it cannot be enforced by the administration because the vampire community pours money into the game and ultimately its a business, so the supreme vampire leader cant treat you in the manner he should for denying his way of life that no vampires really follow.

Ultimately I was disappointed with the vampire community as a whole as a player and developed my roleplay to dislike vampires for it, as a player, I understand why the players play as they do and why it is not really a draw, but you are also part of an organization where you would all have a fit if it was played as it is intended to be, and you would all come here shouting about how the administration is abusing its power and forcing your roleplay.

So its really a double edged sword....the administration cant win, and the players cant either so it brings us to a point where vampirism has no real draw because neither side can do it as they wish to without sparking a firestorm of godly proportions of hate and vitriol.


Long story short, I believe Vampires (Being as -big- of a part of the game) are one of the biggest problems in the game....and really it should not be advertised as a Vampire roleplay game, because its not, its a small sub-section of the community and you all really are not that huge of a part of it as you all claim to be or think you are.

-awards a special snowflake badge here-

Erzsebet

The fact that there isn't going to be one for every house as was promised is complete and total unicorns. I'm not saying that it has to be (or should be) me (though that was -also- promised, in-character, by the admin playing Abhorash at the time) but we were promised one person per house to be re-sired to Abhorash as a reward for surviving the purge. Why aren't the admin following through on their promises?


eta: clarification
eta2: clarifying, ate the censoring for some reason

Riluo

^
This.

It was stated to us by a certain "unnamed player/god(dess)/admin" that Riluo was going to be an Emperor then ignored when It was brought up, which was silly as it caused some huge arguments, as well as tension between myself and admin. It got to the point it made me come off as this narcissistic “faecal- orifice” with self-entitlement issues for trying to even bring it up. In fact I got really pissed at the whole thing, which is not like me at all. So I just shut up and since then have felt somewhat disenchanted by the whole sorry thing.

In terms of Abhorash I like the whole sociopath thing he has going and the shadow thing. I just wish he was made to be more consistent, along with other things.

As I said earlier vamps could be so much more if a better focus was kept on ensuring the left hand knew what the right was doing.



EDIT:
Now I just feel bitter all over again for speaking up

Alexina

I genuinely try to provide feedback instead of just whining at the unfairness of the situation, so I hope you take it that way. There was a few points I wanted to elaborate on:

• House Elder status: Implementing this the way it was done has in no way improved or enhanced vampire gameplay. The few people that received this status are mostly not playing and even if they were, it bears no real significance or authority being declared an elder. When I participate in a house as an active member, I can't help but feel resentment over the fact that a few dormant people arbitrarily gets the new perks that were introduced alongside the Dominion. I just feel it would be better to create an atmosphere that involves people, reward people that are active now instead of back then. Honour lines are a good example of rewards for someone who is active, but some special house status that no one else can get? Eventually, these people might stop showing up and then you spent time and energy on something that won't be relevant at all. My suggestion would be that Elder Status in a house comes after fulfilling a set amount of requirements: Siring X childes (bringing up new people in the house), being marked as active for Y amounts of months in the house (logging in a specific amount of time for a month counts towards fulfilling this), reaching a specific house rank, etcetera, etcetera. If you work hard or just remain dedicated to your house, you should be able to earn Elder status. All that aside, there's literally a ton of new positions that could be created just in the Dominion alone, all which would encourage RP and interaction between people. If you're lacking for inspiration, just open up the Vampire: the Requiem book (one of my favourite tabletop rpgs) and you'll find tons of positions/titles/ranks in a vampire society.
  
• Abhorash SiringAdmin transparency: This is not so much specifically about Abhorash Siring people again or not (although I know -a lot- of people were super excited about this), but the admin making promises and then backpedalling on them. I've browsed around looking for the newsletter I thought mentioned Abhorash's return and I haven't been able to find it, but to my knowledge, it was an official thing that people would be embraced by him. Finding out two and a half years later (that's right, Abhorash has been back since February 2013) in a thread that started about Abhorash's role in the world that this is no longer the case is just sort of disheartening. Razmael and Oleis came in really strong and were transparent about a lot of stuff and there was communication between the administration and the playerbase, but then things sort of declined. I guess I wish overall there was more communication between the admin and the rest of us. They're handling this great in Achaea. For example, just this year, they've held two 'Ask Your Producer' threads on the forums.
  
• The Dominion design: All other organizations have stated goals, established ranks and methods of progress, incentives/rewards for participation, and so on and so forth, but the Dominion remains vague and undefined in what it is, what it wants us to do, and how we benefit from furthering its goals. It's been over two years since it was founded and at this point, frankly, it's as irrelevant as the Imperium was when it got dissolved. Searching the news, I found that Dristin held an OOC meeting about it earlier this year, and if anyone knows what happened or was said at that meeting, I'd be really interested to hear (assuming it wasn't just meant for the house leaders). I guess I am getting a bit repetitive, but I actually still feel very passionately about Aetolia as a game and I really think the Dominion could be something far greater than what it was when I participated in it.
  

So, some Abhorash discussion and some other stuff. Please don't take this as me pointing fingers, because I'm really just trying to highlights some of the aspects I think haven't worked out so well with the hopes that things will be improved in the future.

Also, I don't really see any issue with Abhorash murdering vampires or telling them off. In other MUDs I played, Imms (admins) would possess mobs and RP with them all the time and I just think it's awesome seeing stuff happening that's outside the capcity of their god roles. Heck, please -more- public figures, mighty or meek, shrewd or dim-witted, corrupt or innocent, it's just tons of fun and contributes to the feeling that Aetolia is a real, living world of its own. The honours lines for mobs was amazing in this regard, but admins/Gods actually pulling the strings of regular mobs or such is pretty awesome too. The most fun I had in this game was the Dreikathi event, which basically was all the admins in invulnerable, instant-kill roles, the only difference being them being enemies than your actual superiors. To me, having a higher up that can forcibly Cure you if you step too much out of line just adds another layer of interaction and makes the world feel more dynamic. I'd be upset if I was punished over frivulous reasons, but generally speaking, if my character was punished in some manner or another after important, long-term interaction with a God/NPC, I'd be just as happy as if I was being rewarded for loyalty. It'd actually mean that the roleplay was meaningful enough to warrant some sort of response.

Veovis

Malok said:

That's really the simple fact of the matter. Most of us in character and out of character both at this point would like to see nothing more than Abhorash done away with.

I'd like to think this is true, but it seems like most of the newer vampires think that Abhorash is just spiffy.

Malok said:

The characters and players behind the leadership in each House are far more interesting, fair, and wise and smart than Abhorash. This is also a fact.

If Abhorash was played in a better way befitting of a leader, then these facts may all be different. It's just not the case.

Abhorash has never really been a fair, wise, or smart leader. It would be out of character for him to be that way. This is why I'm so confused with the direction the admin are taking with him.

He's just a dim memory for most people who are currently playing, so most people don't really remember how little Abhorash actually did. Vampirism in Aetolia is chiefly the work of Zoharim's player, along with excellent contributions from Zahmekoses and Paracelsus.

Malok said:

I do not understand the strategy with what has traditionally been the most compelling facet of Aetolia. Being a Vampire does not seem like the powerful thing that Abhorash makes it out to be. It used to be, but not anymore.

Honestly, the compelling forces behind vampires have never been people like Abhorash. They've been people like Zoharim, Ashmer, Povox, Eshu, you, Ezalor. Erzsebet, maybe me, and the numerous others who have worked to make being a vampire awesome. Now? We mostly hang out in Research and idle in havens.

While I definitely don't agree with what the admin are doing with Abhorash, I don't think it's fair to blame them entirely for the state of vampire play. They evidently saw a problem with vampirism as it was and are trying to do... something with it. I don't know what, but definitely something. We're free to ignore them and do whatever we want if we don't feel it's working.

Abhorash, as a character, could work for those of us who dislike him, if he was made to answer for the sins of his past. The admin don't seem particularly interested in acknowledging his past, so I'm not going to hold my breath.

The Dominion? What's the point of it? It doesn't stand for anything at all, really, and it can't accomplish anything. It would be absolutely awesome if it turned into some sort of political/strategy/territory control minigame between the Houses with multiple ways to achieve dominance. People need some reason to get engaged with it, or the Dominion doesn't really have a point.