Abhorash Discussion

Dristin

This discussion was created from comments split from: Short Questions.

Please know that we will be monitoring this to ensure that it does not become merely a rage thread nor a slapfight. If it continues to take the course it was in Short Questions, it will likely be closed down. Keep the atmosphere friendly and have an actual discussion. If someone has an opinion that is different than your own, please do not let it get into an all-out argument. Thank you!

Veovis

(Bloodloch): Abhorash says, "I did not speak to the city, did I? There is absolutely no reason to bother
Me if I do not seek audience first."
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
Your eyes sparkle with amusement.
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
(Bloodloch): Ashmer says, "Of course, Primus. Our apologies."
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
(Bloodloch): You say, "He merely wishes to fawn over you, Primus."
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
(Bloodloch): Abhorash says, "Many fawn over Me, and rightfully so. It doesn't mean it needs to be
publicly shown, nor did it require commentary."

Was it really necessary for the admin to try and quash IC interaction via CT instead of encouraging it, especially given how much of Bloodloch's activity occurs in OOC clans and webs?

Seems a bit crummy of you lot. There's a way to convey Abhorash's arrogance and sense of entitlement without completely shutting down interaction.

Oleis

I'm going to re-purpose one of my typical issue responses: Confrontational roleplay is still roleplay. The only reason you attribute this to administrative crumminess is because you, the out-of-character player, are cognizant that Abhorash is an administrative shell. We are constantly working on honing Abhorash's approach to Bloodloch -- too friendly or intimate and he becomes snugglebear; too aggressive and he becomes a godmode cliche. I can't remember if you're among the people who complained that Abhorash has been toothless over the years, but plenty have, and they're correct. This is a course adjustment from that path.

Sidebar: this is something that would have been suited for the Rage thread, which is closed for a reason. I wanted to make sure to provide a thoughtful answer to your question instead of shutting down this line of discussion, but posts like this have a bad habit of turning into player slapfights. Just to make you aware!

Veovis

Oleis said:

I'm going to re-purpose one of my typical issue responses: Confrontational roleplay is still roleplay. The only reason you attribute this to administrative crumminess is because you, the out-of-character player, are cognizant that Abhorash is an administrative shell. We are constantly working on honing Abhorash's approach to Bloodloch -- too friendly or intimate and he becomes snugglebear; too aggressive and he becomes a godmode cliche. I can't remember if you're among the people who complained that Abhorash has been toothless over the years, but plenty have, and they're correct. This is a course adjustment from that path.

Sidebar: this is something that would have been suited for the Rage thread, which is closed for a reason. I wanted to make sure to provide a thoughtful answer to your question instead of shutting down this line of discussion, but posts like this have a bad habit of turning into player slapfights. Just to make you aware!

Confrontational roleplay I understand. It's pretty much how my character interacts with the world. What I attempted to say is this: You didn't do it well and you could have done it better.

I attribute it to crumminess because it is legitimately crummy. If Catty or Asaraii or an actual bonafide player-leader did it, I'd be calling them out too. It has nothing to do with Abhorash being an admin shell and everything to do with the un-earned power and position you all have chosen to give Abhorash. He already is an enormous Gary Stu godmode cliche, you've seen to that mechanically and in roleplay, so I do, in fact, hold you to a much higher standard. You should be finding ways to encourage players to interact without having to resort to the sort of thing I highlighted above.

I don't do slap fights. I have access to propofol and paralytics. Nobody wins but me.

Oleis

To address the content of your post: That's entirely fair. The player behind Abhorash and I have already discussed your feedback, as we tend to discuss every time Abhorash makes an appearance. If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear those too.

To address this:

Veovis said:

I don't do slap fights. I have access to propofol and paralytics. Nobody wins but me.

An outstandingly creepy and inappropriate threat in response to something we say quite frequently here: "don't expect moderation to be on your side if you open yourself to topics that frequently cause arguments." I don't know what to say beyond that.

Veovis

Oleis said:

To address this:

Veovis said:

I don't do slap fights. I have access to propofol and paralytics. Nobody wins but me.

An outstandingly creepy and inappropriate threat in response to something we say quite frequently here: "don't expect moderation to be on your side if you open yourself to topics that frequently cause arguments." I don't know what to say beyond that.

I tend to forget that people outside of medicine have a poor understanding of anything approaching dark humor. I'm sorry you were offended by my comment. You didn't say "don't expect moderation to be on your side." You said "but posts like this have a bad habit of turning into player slapfights. Just to make you aware!" That's nothing even close to "don't expect moderation to be on your side."

When people try to slap me, they're usually psychotic or suffering from advanced stages of dementia or aging-related cognitive decline, and I often do have to use pharmacological methods to "win" the slap fight, or I or one of my team end up suffering physical harm. I've had my nose broken, suffered fractures, bruises, lacerations, you name it from "slap fights." They're not actually very funny. I don't fight, and I do control the situation safely, always. It wasn't intended to come off like a frat boy "roofie" joke as you seem to've taken it. It was intended as a rather tongue in cheek reassurance that i had no intention of getting into an argument.

We've done that anyway. I've offended you, you've offended me. Exciting.

Aldric

Well to be fair, it didn't exactly read as a positive statement.

Malok

Oleis said:

I'm going to re-purpose one of my typical issue responses: Confrontational roleplay is still roleplay. The only reason you attribute this to administrative crumminess is because you, the out-of-character player, are cognizant that Abhorash is an administrative shell. We are constantly working on honing Abhorash's approach to Bloodloch -- too friendly or intimate and he becomes snugglebear; too aggressive and he becomes a godmode cliche. I can't remember if you're among the people who complained that Abhorash has been toothless over the years, but plenty have, and they're correct. This is a course adjustment from that path.!

I love ya, Oleis, but the path you are all taking with Abhorash is leading to people just choosing to not interact with him.

Noone wants to interact with a leader, if they don't have to, who treats everyone around him like garbage. This feeling is particularly amplified by the fact that he rarely does anything useful.

I like Vampire RP, and I like the Dominion, if any of you have been paying attention it is the driving force behind why I've always played. That being said, you can have a leader who appreciates what his underlings do, without classifying him as a 'snugglebear'.

If you want him to continue to be a tyrant that treats everyone like garbage, you need to have a way for us to depose him. If you don't, which would be entirely an Admin decision, then yes, everyone will view him as an Admin shell. You can't have him be immune to the consequences of his words and actions like you all seem to always go with, and then expect us to view him as a character that has weaknesses.

So here's my Short Question: Do you all ever intend for us to be able to overthrow Abhorash, or at least have any meaningful way to challenge his power?

Areka

I do not know if that would work? I admit I'm largely ignorant of a lot of Vampiric stuff, but isn't he essentially a source of all your power? Can strip vampirism from people at will if they displease him, or lessen their ability, essentially everyone is his childe since it all filters through him?

He isn't like a GM or CL which is elected, he IS a tyrant and is not equal in weaknesses to a normal player.

Or am I just super confused and need to get back to reading?

Malok

Areka said:

I do not know if that would work? I admit I'm largely ignorant of a lot of Vampiric stuff, but isn't he essentially a source of all your power? Can strip vampirism from people at will if they displease him, or lessen their ability, essentially everyone is his childe since it all filters through him?

He isn't like a GM or CL which is elected, he IS a tyrant and is not equal in weaknesses to a normal player.

Or am I just super confused and need to get back to reading?

Oleis said:

The only reason you attribute this to administrative crumminess is because you, the out-of-character player, are cognizant that Abhorash is an administrative shell.

Malok said:

If you want him to continue to be a tyrant that treats everyone like garbage, you need to have a way for us to depose him. If you don't, which would be entirely an Admin decision, then yes, everyone will view him as an Admin shell. You can't have him be immune to the consequences of his words and actions like you all seem to always go with, and then expect us to view him as a character that has weaknesses.

@Areka, my point is that Oleis is saying that a player attributes the player's view of administrative crumminess to the player in question just considering Abhorash as an administrative shell and not a character.

My point is that the reason most people do this nowadays, and yes, a lot do who don't post on the forums, is because Abhorash has zero weaknesses and has zero ways to have consequences for his words and actions to our characters. Until this ceases to be true, most people will carry the view that Veovis does.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to make you all see the perspective of a portion of the Vampire playerbase who does not post on or read the forums.

I also want to say I am completely fine with Abhorash being a jerk, and I'm personally aware its just a character thing. However, as a human being, I do not derive fun in being talked down to on a game by a character who is largely useless and thus if I have a choice between interacting with Abhorash and say going Fishing, I will likely go Fishing as Fishing is far more fun and a more useful spending of my limited time on Aetolia.

Malok

Ishin said:

Personally, it sounds like you guys are mad that Abhorash looks at you all like you're shit, because you act/treat others like shit and are in general useless(in general, not naming names). I mean if I was Abhorash, I'd treat you guys like garbage too, unless you were one of like...four useful people.

Well, given that I disagree with this post and I don't want to get everyone up in arms for clicking the disagree button when I disagree with a post, I'm just going to stop responding to this thread at this time. If we get a thread created to talk about it, I certainly will say why I disagree, but until then, I'm going to go back to playing Aetolia and watching Netflix instead of potentially getting in trouble for having an opinion that is different than everyone else's.

Toodles!

Rashar

That would be a prime example of a post that you'd be within your rights to disagree with. Or agree, as I did!

It's ok, we'll figure these forums out eventually.

Oleis

It bears repeating (as I did a poor job of articulating it originally) that the meat of what @Veovis had to say was valid -- having Abhorash react in that way can have the effect of squashing interaction. My opinion was that we should take the opportunity to challenge that squashing effect with (reasonably respectful, in deference to the IC context) spirited defiance, as Abhorash is not about to kick anyone out of Bloodloch, but I can understand why others wouldn't want to take that route. My prime disagreement (before the weirdness started) was with the premise that this was "the heavy hand of the administration," instead of just a questionable roleplay choice in a series of much-needed course corrections. In that vein, I can completely respect what @Malok had to say.

However, this was indeed the slapfight I was trying to ward off. Consider your opinions sincerely heard for now.

Veovis

Can we split this Abhorash stuff off?

Malok said:

Oleis said:

The only reason you attribute this to administrative crumminess is because you, the out-of-character player, are cognizant that Abhorash is an administrative shell.

Malok said:

If you want him to continue to be a tyrant that treats everyone like garbage, you need to have a way for us to depose him. If you don't, which would be entirely an Admin decision, then yes, everyone will view him as an Admin shell. You can't have him be immune to the consequences of his words and actions like you all seem to always go with, and then expect us to view him as a character that has weaknesses.

@Areka, my point is that Oleis is saying that a player attributes the player's view of administrative crumminess to the player in question just considering Abhorash as an administrative shell and not a character.

My point is that the reason most people do this nowadays, and yes, a lot do who don't post on the forums, is because Abhorash has zero weaknesses and has zero ways to have consequences for his words and actions to our characters. Until this ceases to be true, most people will carry the view that Veovis does.

@Oleis

Those of us who have played Aetolia since the beginning have known that Abhorash was an admin shell for a very long time, even without the bright red name and the custom divine fire. Neither my out of character or in character opinions of Abhorash have anything to do with him being an admin shell.

I don't care if Abhorash wants to be rude, brash, smug, arrogant, or whatever, or whether or not he treats people poorly. I just want him to do it in a way that encourages people to interact with each-other. Heck, my character was, at one point, known for being the rude, arrogant vampire who could make any living character feel just this tall by talking to them. However, my character has strengths and weaknesses. His sense of superiority and rightness tends to get him into trouble. He can't instakill or instacure anyone who disagrees with him. He's not that great of a combatant without one of his progeny at his side.

We all know that I don't precisely like what you've done with Abhorash, because I'm of the opinion that you've taken what was actually a real character with real faults and flaws and strengths and weaknesses and made him into a lifeless, two-dimensional Gary Stu. There is literally no way for any player to challenge Abhorash. There is no way for him to suffer any consequences for his actions. He's literally omnipotent. He can Blood Sever anyone. He can instakill any vampire. He can curse any vampire.

Abhorash actually has a history with the playerbase, and not all of it is positive. He was politically outmaneuvered by Anaphiel, Kauller, and Bahir'an/Bouchard of the time. He tried to restore himself to power, was unsuccessful, and he left. He essentially abandoned the vampire race for centuries, and now he's back with infinite powar and the same attitude as before, except now he has position and status that he, frankly, never earned, and he can't be meaningfully challenged in any way.

I understand that a lot of players LIKE Abhorash as he is now.

Aishia

I can recall in the past being treated poorly or somewhat haughtily by an ALL POWERFUL AND RESPECTED LEADER made me just want to please them MORE, but maybe I just have/had low self esteem. Sheeeiticorns half my newbie experience was just I HATE @ARBRE SO MUCH I NEED TO GET POWERFUL SO I CAN RUIN HER. Some leaders who seem to build their entire power base on it. And she wasn't even the prime example I was thinking of.

Riluo

Abhorash is fine. He has been an asshat to Riluo several times in the past and I just roll with it. Conversely, he has also shown a few real human qualities with his puns, jabs and nods to work completed, which I think makes him well rounded. However for a period there he was the personal buddy of select players and they yielded a free pass in the process, as well as some benefits like re-siring, free items and positions of power in cities, orgs etc that did not earn. Perhaps that needs addressed so it does not occur again as it left many of us very bitter for obvious reasons.

Overall I am however very thankful admin play him as it is nice to see ye old dado awake and being a grumpy old shit to his minions

Jensen

My hats off to the admin for being able to RP npcs like Abhorash. I can't imagine being able to maintain any degree of enthusiasm when at any moment a public forum could occur on how they are supposed to be played and what they're doing wrong.

Asaraii

Considering Ashmer and Veovis aren't even in the Dominion, I personally find that it's incredibly appropriate for Abhorash to be a grunt to them over the city channel. Abhorash could quite simply remove their vampiness from them for being rogues, but hey look, he still let's them have their 'individuality' roleplay and not be part of -his- Dominion. So kudos to letting people who need to be individuals and not contribute to the vamp-life, be individuals and not contribute to the vamp-life.

Really, most vampires in the Dominion should be looking down at rogues, and why wouldn't Abhorash be openly snarky about them? A rogue trying to talk to him over CT - hayl no son, he doesn't have to listen to those maggots.

I appreciate Abhorash's interactions with the Dominion immensely. He encourages conversation and interaction over the Dominion every time he's online - and that is what matters the most, getting a bit of a group dynamic and trying to get the people who NEVER. TALK. OR. INTERACT. to do that over the Dominion and make it feel like more than a bunch of afking old timers and the handful of us who actually like to promote interaction with each other.

Not my most put together argument, but I'm still waking up and find this to be a little ignorant. I appreciate there being an admin-char that will push roleplay to stick to the way things are. Granted it might not have gone the way old timers wanted vampire roleplay to go, but it's what we have now and it'd work awesomely if players would work together to make it a more interactive environment. It isn't up to the admin to do that for us - but they are willing to, so that's even better.

Xenia

I am going to echo what Aishia said, but with my own personal example. When I was new in the Carnifex, I made the mistake (best decision ever) of asking @Toz to be my sponsoring knight. Any of you who interacted with Toz a few years ago would know he was distant and would project a level of disdain toward Xenia. She consistently failed to meet his expectations and he made sure that she knew it. All this ever did was give the character a healthy dose of humility while constantly striving to be worthy in Toz's eyes. That said, he never was outright rude or mean, it was instead portrayed by his open lack of respect for the character who had yet to earn it.

The example I read above:

(Bloodloch): Abhorash says, "I did not speak to the city, did I? There is absolutely no reason to bother
Me if I do not seek audience first."
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
Your eyes sparkle with amusement.
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
(Bloodloch): Ashmer says, "Of course, Primus. Our apologies."
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
(Bloodloch): You say, "He merely wishes to fawn over you, Primus."
H:6681/6681 M:4446/4446 B:(100) XP:64.98% (Dawn) [Vote][TARGET: villager][none]
(Bloodloch): Abhorash says, "Many fawn over Me, and rightfully so. It doesn't mean it needs to be
publicly shown, nor did it require commentary."

doesn't give context really. Was Ashmer praising Abhorash over the city channel or was it a situation where Abhorash was responding to Ashmer's in person interaction publicly ? If it was the latter, how can we know what the relationship or dynamic between Ashmer and Abhorash is? The point I'm getting to is that I think there may be layers of complexity to Abhorash's response that are unknown and when you popped up, Abhorash just responded with a dismissal because perhaps it wasn't relevant to whatever was going on between he and Ashmer.

TLDR: Maybe Abhorash wants you all to be tryhards and his response to Ashmer held meaning to the history between the Primus and Ashmer.

Veovis

Xenia said:

I am going to echo what Aishia said, but with my own personal example. When I was new in the Carnifex, I made the mistake (best decision ever) of asking @Toz to be my sponsoring knight. Any of you who interacted with Toz a few years ago would know he was distant and would project a level of disdain toward Xenia. She consistently failed to meet his expectations and he made sure that she knew it. All this ever did was give the character a healthy dose of humility while constantly striving to be worthy in Toz's eyes. That said, he never was outright rude or mean, it was instead portrayed by his open lack of respect for the character who had yet to earn it.

The example I read above:


TLDR: Maybe Abhorash wants you all to be tryhards and his response to Ashmer held meaning to the history between the Primus and Ashmer.

There is no further context to provide. Ashmer was pretty much like "Hi, Great-Great Grandaddy!" and Abhorash was kind of like "SIF!" That's it.

I think I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again. I like being a broken record.

The issue I have with Abhorash, though, is that he's not a player-leader who has earned his position and the respect given to him through his actions. Desian, for example, was an absolute Muppet, and a terrifying one at that, but he had to actually work to be terrifying. Abhorash gets divine fire and an insta-kill. Desian's actions had consequences, but because Abhorash is played by an admin he gets off without any and has permanent plot armor.

Want to bring him to task for abandoning vampires, for making Kauller a Princess, giving her a house, and then abandoning vampires for centuries? Too bad. Can't. He's unkillable and has an insta-kill.

Rashar

So do Gods, though. Would it be terribly difficult to just consider him at that level? You're absolutely right, he -isn't- some player created leader. He is a lore icon and a tool that the admin use to start or further RP.

And entirely optional, right? Ffs, I get tired of saying that you should be happy for all the admin attention you guys have had for the last however long, considering what a draw being supr evl & vamp already is and how you don't really need the help. You guys are without a doubt the most active half of the game, and you still get the most - from my point of view anyway, could be wrong -divine attention. I'm sure there is an argument that could be made that active players -cause- that attention, but. I don't know if there's any question in anyone's mind that active divine/admin/whatever you want to cloak it as things cause people to log on and play more than normal. In summary: Stop. Bitching.

Is he sometimes used to push an agenda or keep things from drifting too far off from what the admin ideal of BL/Vamp/Whatever is? Sure. So is a divine nudge, or an admin nudge. At the end of the day, we -are- still playing within the framework that IRE wants to give us.

I get it that you're an old old player and you had old old RP with him and such, but. People also used to name themsevles DragonGooberFire McTitlepants The Righteous Evil Vampire Wolf Archmage Knight Lord Something Something in Illumine, and I've read the news from the early years of this game. Please. Things change. Sometimes you just have to let it go.

In my mind, this is very similar to complaining about getting a bunch of useless commodities in a cryptic chest. You're losing sight of the fact that it's an extra in the first place.

Xenia

Ah, I can understand some frustration with that and the desire to have your main leader have some form of merit that is more tangible than the lore and back story created.

Veovis

Xenia said:

Ah, I can understand some frustration with that and the desire to have your main leader have some form of merit that is more tangible than the lore and back story created.

That's just it for me. Abhorash had a backstory. He did things. He had friends. He had enemies. He made good choices and bad ones. He suffered the consequences for the bad choices he made, and was lauded for the good.

But now? He literally can't be brought to task for the poor choices that he has made, not reasonably. We're apparently supposed to be "reasonably respectful" in accordance to some IC context related to Abhorash per @Oleis. It irritates me a bit. My character's context for Abhorash is that he's a neglectful, bumbling fool who bit off more than he could chew and ran off when he didn't get what he wanted. His IC context doesn't really warrant anything approaching "respectful." His OOC context as an admin shell is the only thing that does.

Aarbrok

I have a question for you @Veovis and it is serious from a Roleplayed standard which, I think if I was in the situation or those who truly stick to their RP would do so if such was viable.

Would you be upset if Abhorash took away your blood, for Roleplay because your character as a rogue denounces his representation as leader, the blood is his gift he holds, you are of his bloodline whether you recognize it or not is irrelevant.

If this was not a business, if this was a pen and paper tabletop game and Abhorash was the DM, there would be nothing you could do about it, the only thing you can hold on to with these arguments is you dont like something and there is nothing anyone can do about it so you can have whatever general opinion of the matter because you are untouchable, but in the real scope of things, should the rogues who denounce the Dominion have their blood revoked yes, can the admins and volunteers do that NO, why because this -is- a business, and no matter the entitlement and opinion of the players, there is not much that can be done with roleplay save for arrogance and snark, because the players will write mean letters and be made about their real money they have paid over the years.

Its somewhat disenheartening that because one is untouchable to consequence for their actions, they can be crummy to the volunteers who are attempting to help the majority push along their roleplay and create an environment for the players that is engaging and exciting.

Veovis

Rashar said:

So do Gods, though. Would it be terribly difficult to just consider him at that level? You're absolutely right, he -isn't- some player created leader. He is a lore icon and a tool that the admin use to start or further RP.

And entirely optional, right? Ffs, I get tired of saying that you should be happy for all the admin attention you guys have had for the last however long, considering what a draw being supr evl & vamp already is and how you don't really need the help.

Aetolian Gods have been remarkably balanced in their use of "infinite powar" and don't really fall into the Omnipotent trope. They're vastly more powerful than mortals, but they do have more than one dimension. They have strengths and weaknesses and character flaws. They don't often intervene directly in mortal affairs. They can punish you if they want to, but they can't take your class away if you don't roleplay like they want you to; if they're on a city's divine advisory, it's because they've been a boon to the city.

Abhorash is a lot less balanced in terms of his use of The Omnipotent trope. The admin have ignored his history, his many flaws, and have given him rank, status, and power that players decided long ago he didn't really deserve to have. He was thrown out of Bloodloch for a reason.

As to your second point, we don't need Abhorash at all. Abhorash was meant to jumpstart the Vampire class, which was a pretty new thing in IRE in the 2000's, and that's that. He was a bad leader, he created an oppressive, stifling atmosphere in Bloodloch. He made the mistake of making Kauller a Princess without seeing her as a threat. As a character, he was pretty much finished. He had a good end. But now, he's back with plot armor.

I get that many, many people like the way the character is played, but I'd personally love to see them dial back the godmode to a considerable degree.

I have a feeling that I'm in the minority here, though, and I'm just talking to hear myself talk.

Veovis

Aarbrok said:

I have a question for you @Veovis and it is serious from a Roleplayed standard which, I think if I was in the situation or those who truly stick to their RP would do so if such was viable.

Would you be upset if Abhorash took away your blood, for Roleplay because your character as a rogue denounces his representation as leader, the blood is his gift he holds, you are of his bloodline whether you recognize it or not is irrelevant.

Nope, I wouldn't be upset at all. I've mentioned my character's history with Abhorash on these forums, and I would be completely fine with that happening so long as there was some good roleplay to go with it. I think Veovis has reached a point at a character where it would be awesome for him to not be a vampire. He's a in a bit of a Professor Farnsworth "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" mood where Vampirism is concerned. Vampirism has failed him, and he doesn't really want it anymore now that Undeath is an option and the Teradrim exist in their current form.

Aarbrok

Well I am appreciative some folks would uphold those values, thank you for responding, I am by no means challenging your opinions you are more than welcome to express them, I think if more players would be engaging to the severity of consequence, especially of this variety, it would bring not only a bit of realism to the immersion but allow some great avenues for Roleplay.

I am pleased to see you are one of those, and would be more than willing to see a movement of those who can accept a consequence as something other than Administrative abuse or favoritism/ it goes both ways sometimes. I have said many times, if Abhorash wants to show those teeth, he should, but I also know reasons he cannot because, well...I have seen in other games what can happen when those things develop in character.

Sarita

I've seen a few references to the instakill stuff that Abhorash has now, but I think it's worth remembering that Belladona essentially had the same thing when she was an NPC, and she was aggro towards certain characters (I think male ones?) as a general rule. I remember at least one occasion when someone told Zahmekoses that Belladona wanted to speak to him, and he went to Fengard and died because as a character, he wouldn't risk not obeying her. I don't think it's too much of a stretch for Abhorash to have that amount of power now that he has replaced Belladona.

Riluo

I -PASHED- :* her and lived to tell the story, now beat that

Malok

It's fine that Abhorash has instakill stuff. It's also fine that he acts like a jerk. It's fine that he is impractical and generally useless.

What most of us have issue with is the fact there's no consequences to his actions. Yes, as has been stated earlier in the thread, the God characters are the same way. However, Abhorash acts far differently than a God character and used to be played by an actual player in his conception. These are the differences.

@Veovis has pretty much summed up how I feel about it. It's likely not a coincidence that he and I have both seen the beginning of the game back then and seen Abhorash and early Consanguine culture, history, etc.

My character used to basically worship Abhorash. Until he met him.

In an OOC context and an IC one both, it's far more practical and fulfilling to worship a God at this point. Because there -is- a vast difference in how they're played.

All these things being said, I imagine someone might respond with 'Well if you don't like it, just get the cure'. No. I will not change my character's roleplay and attitude just because I as a player of said character realizes that Abhorash is being played in what I would consider in real life to be a poor fashion. I will continue to blindly follow Abhorash as my character always has, because he believes that there is a method to the madness of the Primus.

Me, though? I just kinda shrug and go fishing. It's wholly out of my control. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Aarbrok

Based on actions, roleplay, considerations of the 'once-character played' Abhorash, would it not be considerate to think, he has achieved the ascension beyond what would have been played by a player. Has he not Absorbed Ati, has he not taken over the helm of the Blood by means of the deaths of the former figureheads. From a roleplay standpoint, the old Abhorash that existed when played by a player died a very long time ago, he ascended to the form which he is today, that would be like holding Maghak responsible for Galleus actions, or looking back at the many incarnations of Slyphe....

Development works both ways, some things are owned up to, but the arrogance of a Consanguine and especially one who holds the key to basically the free will of an entire bloodline that BY CHOICE has decided to follow him as a figurehead, you don't have to be a vampire, but by doing so you have signed up for it, you dont have to like it, but it was a cognizant decision you as a player made.

EDIT: I hope I am not coming off rude or anything, I am just kinda sharing my perspective, I hope it doesn't seem that way.