Automated combat

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  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Actually, Valingar and I had a spar earlier where I won solely because of stupidity ticks. I shouldn't of beat him, but I did, because stupidity and the RNG screwed him. I had a fight with a BB the other day where I was off balance or EQ for over 10 seconds because of epilepsy and stupidity stacking. - I had several off balances, and some secrets to boot. RNG plays a -huge- part in fights right now, and sure, you can sort of spam through it, but once you hit an EQ or BAL taker? It's over. We're too momentum  based these days to lose 10 seconds.

    I, perhaps, could have been clearer in my choice of words, but I was referring more to the wide range of afflictions available to a BB. But, you and I both know that I think the BB have some things I don't agree with, just like you want to remove Angel Care\Cleansing Aura because it messes up your ability to track afflictions since it cures silently (I know you say it's because the classes don't need passive curing, but they're the last two untrackable cures in the game).

    I actually remember -when- Aetolia became heavily automated, and it was at the time that discernment came out. Since then, there's been a war on all abilities that silently cure, which has lead to this flood of automation that now exists.

    There are ways I can improve, and I'm constantly seeking that. That being said, by your own admission, you'll happily tell how to tear apart lifer classes, but, and I quote 'darkie 4 lyfe' you don't teach people how to beat BB or darkie classes. If there is this giant misconception out there about your class, as you claim, perhaps instead of being a 'knowledge is power' guy, you share some of that knowledge?

    Understand, this isn't an attack on you, though as someone who has been on top as you are right now, you probably feel like it is, because this is your chosen method of fighting.

     

     

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Toz said:
    Yeah, no. I'm capable of coding, I'm capable of writing an AI. And I have one that works more than well enough for what pvp I do. That being said, I don't care much for being a "top tier fighter" if that involves writing code stacks, testing code stacks, and repeating for forever. That's not what pvp should be - the automation in Achaea, for instance? Curing only. You CANNOT write an AI for Achaea because of the randomized variables. As such, you see more clever tactics, more thought being put in than simply attacking in a linear progression. They also have illusions which further raises the skillcap of the class that they're available to. You talk about 'dumbing it down' - that's the opposite of what I'm suggesting. Combat IS dumbed down. Combat is reduced to a set of linear decisions. You do this. Then you do that. Then they cured the first thing so you do it again. And you keep on hindering, hindering, hindering until they're locked down and you can win. Take away discernment and, suddenly, combat is more about figuring out what is REALLY important, because the ability to keep a precious few things on the target reliably is what matters more than loading them up with precision afflictions. You start to have to make choices - do I waste time throwing clumsiness in when it might NOT actually stop them from curing asthma, or do I go straight for a lock?

    You cannot have both sides. You cannot claim that coding is easy/simple, then claim that arguing AGAINST coding is making things too easy/simple/dumbed down. So, pick one. Is coding a complex barrier to entry that separates the good from the bad? Is that how we should, in your opinion, decide who the 'better' fighter is? Or is coding a simple task, that (at least as I think) dumbs down combat?

    EDIT: I'm not calling AI's 'skill-less'. I'm saying that AI != good at pvp. I can stat-track and know the mechanics about softball all I want, but that doesn't make me an all-star. There's a space between knowledge and results that occurs in all TRUE competition that automated offense robs everyone of. So, congratulations - you know how to make code work. You know the theory. But don't claim you're applying it yourself, because you aren't. You're letting a system do it for you, and everyone else has to as well in order to be able to compete. It's the steroids of IRE, the Patriots Scandal of combat, an advantage that should not be, because it's detrimental. Look again at my post, explaining the only 2 ways the 'fights of the future' will go. Decide if you want a win to be determined by RNG, or by class pick.
    I'm saying the -coding- aspect of it is easy, but the real work comes in analyzing your logs and coming up with creative solutions -to- code. I'm still not entirely sure what randomizing cure orders and such will do to defeat automation as I would think the optimal way to determine what was cured and make the appropriate decisions would still be superior coming from an AI. Illusions would just necessitate -more- code to defend against them.

    I guess I would view Aetolian PK more as GM vs GM rather than players vs players in the context of sports. You assemble the team, you do your best to account for all possibilities, you build it, then you watch it in action. I don't think I'm entirely crazy for liking that style as Football Manager was a very popular game :P. Yeah you can say being good at GMing != being good at a sport, but it's an entirely different context of skills and situation.
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  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will say, in ye olden days, I would get an adrenaline rush winning a hard fight. Now, with AI's, I'm just bored watching it tick.

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Daskalos said:

    Actually, Valingar and I had a spar earlier where I won solely because of stupidity ticks. I shouldn't of beat him, but I did, because stupidity and the RNG screwed him. I had a fight with a BB the other day where I was off balance or EQ for over 10 seconds because of epilepsy and stupidity stacking. - I had several off balances, and some secrets to boot. RNG plays a -huge- part in fights right now, and sure, you can sort of spam through it, but once you hit an EQ or BAL taker? It's over. We're too momentum  based these days to lose 10 seconds.

    I, perhaps, could have been clearer in my choice of words, but I was referring more to the wide range of afflictions available to a BB. But, you and I both know that I think the BB have some things I don't agree with, just like you want to remove Angel Care\Cleansing Aura because it messes up your ability to track afflictions since it cures silently (I know you say it's because the classes don't need passive curing, but they're the last two untrackable cures in the game).

    I actually remember -when- Aetolia became heavily automated, and it was at the time that discernment came out. Since then, there's been a war on all abilities that silently cure, which has lead to this flood of automation that now exists.

    There are ways I can improve, and I'm constantly seeking that. That being said, by your own admission, you'll happily tell how to tear apart lifer classes, but, and I quote 'darkie 4 lyfe' you don't teach people how to beat BB or darkie classes. If there is this giant misconception out there about your class, as you claim, perhaps instead of being a 'knowledge is power' guy, you share some of that knowledge?

    Understand, this isn't an attack on you, though as someone who has been on top as you are right now, you probably feel like it is, because this is your chosen method of fighting.

     

     

    Darkie 4 lyfe indeed! The thing with Bloodborn is that you can mitigate their damage to become almost negligible, handled by moss/boar/healing skills. What you really need to watch is your mana, and this means allowing bleeding to go through rather than clotting it all (clotting it all right away also makes your moss tattoo less effective), devoting sips almost entirely to it, shifting to restore it (especially after Mindburrow), etc. You also need good recklessness tracking, as in actually attempting to track your health/mana while in recklessness to adjust healing accordingly. The standard sipping/clotting in place for most systems is very inefficient against Bloodborn. There is also a significant defensive artifact investment into mitigating Bloodborn (though there's also a significant offensive artifact investment into making BB work, so kinda balances out?). In a way you have to think of it in the opposite of how you view your pools vs any other class - do everything you can do keep mana high, it's okay to let health sag. Even though red/yellow health looks very scary, red/yellow mana means you die. Impatience cutting mana sip in half means it is much much easier to restore your health back up from a critical spot than it is for your mana, so you really need to do all you can to avoid your mana hitting that critical spot. Back when I sparred and lost to Rammus all the time I noticed my health would often be at 80%+ while my mana was in annihilate range which just made the job all the easier for him. You should only allow yourself to fall into annihilate range if you have no health pool left to buffer it basically.

    All that said I won't 100% claim that Bloodborn isn't still overwhelming as I have neither fought in nor against the class in quite some time. I've been away for the holidays with no access to my system to actually test now that another Bloodborn 1v1 fighter has popped up so I can't say my judgment is entirely accurate.
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  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You said you handle the damage fine because you run stalwart with extra into cutting. you, literally, are going as much against the damage of a BB as possible, though. Some people, and classes, can't spec out like that. I know I, with my 63 audit, regularly take 1000 damage, about 500 mana damage, and 3 afflictions -every- round from a Bloodborn. That's not including the passive drain from seduction\temptation (which you also  get, yay for free moon\boar), the random affliction thrown at me from my -own- attacks via Blood Meld, haemophilia  firing from bloodshield if you hit it, anxieties running passively, which you can now track and build off of, shadowblow doing additional damage, and I'm sure I'm missing some. Not to mention various  rituals such as that super annoying one that randomizes health and mana and basically guarantees an annihilate.

     

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • AmberleaAmberlea Member Posts: 148 ✭✭✭
    I've read most of this thread and I just wanted to say that I dislike the idea that automation makes people better than others purely because of coding, but I don't think any of the suggestions are good ideas, either. The options seem to just boil down to complex with automation being important, or too simple to need automation and thus less fun.

    I came to accept that coding is part of the game and I learned it. I don't 'automate', but many of my aliases are quite intelligent, and I have put together a fantastic, visual limb-state tracker. I'm thinking of making a plugin of it and giving it to Haven to include with Lilith. (<3 mushclient)
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    Rawr
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Toz said:
    You need to automate, because the AI setup has trickled down. If you don't automate, you're going to lose against anyone with a half-decent AI, and those aren't hard to make or get.

    Hit rebounding? They won't do it nearly as often. Accidentally hit with the same venom twice? They won't. Lose track of what affs they have? They don't. Combat is all about mistakes, that's what makes it a competition - and you'll make more mistakes than my AI will quite reliably.
    Full on automation is not a requirement for combat, be it entry level or top-tier, is what I'm saying. Or at the very least it isn't required for every class. I'm inclined to believe that there isn't a single class that requires it save maybe Syssin and that's only because the syntax for the class combat is kind of unwieldly and perhaps too complex but I'm sure with enough time and dedication someone could create a UI that'll make manualing it possible.

    If you create an affliction tracker with a readable and easily accessible display and an auto-razer to deal with shield/rebounding then you may manual the rest of your offense to your heart's content and still compete against AIs reasonably well with enough practice and combat knowledge. Why? Because no matter how much you script something to fight entirely for you, the AI is still limited to the same balance/equilibrium cost of the skills that a manual user is. All of which are still within the realm of what's humanly possible to react to and highlighted further by the fact that you can queue your abilities.

    [spoiler]The queue feat is not even necessary but is a nice option. It's unfortunate though that class syntax is not the same across the board and so some classes have it easier to use the queue feature than others, particularly in the current queue system's very limited ability.[/spoiler]

    Because AI's are forced to remain at this disadvantage of playing at humanly possible level speeds due to how Aetolia is designed, I find AI's ultimately pointless to create beyond stroking an ego and taking pride that you've created one. The AI that isn't coded to account for everything is inferior to the human element because should it ever encounter anything beyond its scripting parameters it cannot adapt until after the fact when the person can sit down and add the new element in. This is not an ideal situation to be in during live combat because that loss might have big consequences like enemies at the gate and about to conquer your city. A feature that's nonexistant in Aetolia at the moment but you get my point. But let's say a new element is never introduced and someone's dedicated enough to craft an AI that accounts for and does everything (or hell, maybe they've designed an AI that can think and adapt to new elements too)... I have to ask you why is it that you're even competing in PvP combat and if they're the right reasons? Especially considering the fact that using an AI is NOT a necessary element to play the offensive side of the game. It's akin to using a robot to play Halo or Street Fighter for you when you can perfectly pick up the controller and play competitively (and reasonably well) yourself.

    When I look at systems like my Lilith or Kaeus's Tripwire or Lanira's Citadel with all these bells and whistles to make the UI readable and easily accessible and simple so that we may better focus on playing the game (like deciding what our offenses should be or what's the best strategy), I cannot help but feel that they should be standard features to the game. I dream of the day when Aetolia becomes a game where you can just pick up the controller and play (like with just about every other video game) as opposed to the requirement to design the controller first that we have now. (Which is why I'm a strong advocate for a better firstaid for Aetolia.)

    Anyway, I'm rambling now and probably way off topic. If I haven't convinced you now then I'm not sure what else I could say to change your mind and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
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  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Daskalos said:

    You said you handle the damage fine because you run stalwart with extra into cutting. you, literally, are going as much against the damage of a BB as possible, though. Some people, and classes, can't spec out like that. I know I, with my 63 audit, regularly take 1000 damage, about 500 mana damage, and 3 afflictions -every- round from a Bloodborn. That's not including the passive drain from seduction\temptation (which you also  get, yay for free moon\boar), the random affliction thrown at me from my -own- attacks via Blood Meld, haemophilia  firing from bloodshield if you hit it, anxieties running passively, which you can now track and build off of, shadowblow doing additional damage, and I'm sure I'm missing some. Not to mention various  rituals such as that super annoying one that randomizes health and mana and basically guarantees an annihilate.

     

    Bloodmeld is undeniably OP and needs to be hit with the nerf stick. I actually think (and commented) that it needs to be slowed past just 10s if it's to stay in its current incarnation. Eldritch is not that great as it ticks in intervals; it'll be dormant for 90% of the time, then over a 5s period scramble your health/mana, then be dormant again. It does aggravate some critical situations (and actually forces you to make manual decisions rather than automate in these situations!) but the only time I can think of it really being huge is if you are nearing annihilate range and need to know your HP to determine whether to shift or disengage/turtle and that situation would need to coincide perfectly with the tick interval. I do indeed run Stalwart + cutting as this is, IMO, the optimal statpack for every class that doesn't need damage (which is pretty much all of them except BB, Magi, and Shamans). I take something like 700 a swing in damage from a Bloodborn IIRC, but again not 100% sure on that right now. I do know that I was able to handle the damage/mana pressure just fine without Mindburrow but that could also be a function of the extreme paralysis hindering that Templars can put out.

    Anxieties would be made much less effective with dynamic curing. No Mentis herb aff is really a must-cure (beyond confusion for eq classes) so you can choose to ignore the anxiety tree and go after all the other affs. There are only so many affs available in each tree so there will always be something else you can be curing to slow down Mindburrow.
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  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes but you've got a report in right now to make paralysis hindering less.


    Problem:
    Paralysis can get ridiculously hindering from classes like Templars, Sentinels, or Syssin that can spam it almost at herb balance.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Make paralysis have all the same effects (including interrupting channels) but not prevent the person from attacking. This would be coupled with making weariness a non-focus aff and perhaps giving it another effect such as preventing fitness.

    If this goes through, that would be a -huge- buff for BB as generally it's considered 'hinder them!' as a means for helping deal with BB (and something you yourself said you did to help).

    If you look at your reports, while you do offer a few slowdowns to Bloodborn combat, overall, what you're touching isn't the main problem, and some of the buffs you're asking for, quite frankly, terrify me. More passive damage with a shadowblow change? The ability to bypass the only defense to in room rituals, silence vibe? Removing the random cooldown on whisper buffs? A buff to loneliness aff?

    I dunno, I just think, right now, the last thing BB need are more buffs, and while some of these are buffs for a LOT of classes (paralysis especially) it makes hindering a BB even harder. BB already can whisper while prone, which is nuts in and of itself that you can deliver 2 affs while prone. Makes instakills impossible without a truelock.

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • XiuhcoatlXiuhcoatl Member Posts: 248 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Personally I think a lot of the proned attacks need to be done away with. If I have all your limbs mangled, and you're just twerking your mind paralyze or dwhisper peace hatred, no. 

    Even more so with the writhe nerf, having writhe afflictions not stop these attacks is also annoying. 

    Everytime I see someone proned, paralyzed and transfixed just hitting dwhisper or mind paralyze spamming, I just keep thinking   torc_twerking
  • MedriMedri Member Posts: 31 ✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Personally, I don't like the idea of having to spend a week's worth of groceries or be tutored for a month in mathematics and sciences that I can barely understand in the first place just so I have the fleeting chance to not be a perpetual victim in a video game that I like to play.

    BUT OH WELL ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Xiuhcoatl
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    None of those beyond loneliness are real buffs. Whisper rituals already last 10 minutes so it's more of a convenience thing than anything. Shadowblow is a sideways move to normalize it across all classes. BB use paralysis too.

    I wouldn't mind at all if the prone ability of dwhisper was taken away. It is absolutely awful to dwhisper while prone as you force yourself to stay prone for that extra time. I really don't know where this perception of using Mentis while prone as being a good idea came from. It's only really useful to stop channeled stuff when you are really messed up, which Torc does just as well.

    Kind of a derail now but you do need specific stuff to be able to fight Bloodborn. Without it of course the class will be OP, just like Templar offense will be OP until you mitigate certain situations, just like everyone said Shamans were OP until people figured out what to do against them. All that said I do hope to get some fights in against BB before the round closes.

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  • KaeusKaeus Member Posts: 209 ✭✭✭
    Medri said:
    Personally, I don't like the idea of having to spend a week's worth of groceries or be tutored for a month in mathematics and sciences that I can barely understand in the first place just so I have the fleeting chance to not be a perpetual victim in a video game that I like to play.

    BUT OH WELL ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    I've avoided bringing this point up, but the investment is already there in other requirements if you want to realistically PK at the highest levels. The cost of a good system isn't even the full cost of one skill. This game requires time/money regardless of what way you look at it. You also have a time investment simply to level and become accustom to the way combat/afflictions work here. Any way things get changed, I don't see the necessity for coding to magically poof away. If you just want to participate in team combat, and not work at 1v1, there are options for you as well. Though, regardless of your preparation, you will easily become a victim if targetted in a team fight anyhow.

    also, wtb cheap groceries
  • OleisOleis Producer Emeritus Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,392 admin
    This thread has long exceeded its lifespan.
    You say to Slyphe, "You're so freaking smart."
    [---]
    "^," Slyphe agrees with you.
    FerrikValdus
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