Automated combat

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Phoenecia

Trying to dabble in combat, but still being completely unable to because I have no idea how to work, let alone tweak the system I've managed to get a hold of, and unable to find anyone to help me out with it. I'm almost to the point of considering not bothering with it.

Angwe

Ask people who PK. Regularly. On both sides of the game. Approach them ICly and OOCly. Be willing to spend a lot of time on it. Don't get lazy, don't get frustrated, don't find something else to do.

If they aren't trying to help you, you're asking the wrong people. If you don't see them talking about combat in web and in clans beyond 'man, X sucks' then you're asking the wrong people. If you don't see them on deathsight fighting (win or lose) other players at least once a day, you're asking the wrong people.

Rashar

What Angwe said. I've found that a lot of people are willing to help, even when you clearly spend half your time doing other stuff besides PK, and don't dedicate 10 hours a day to it like others. Every once in a while you'll find someone who isn't interested in teaching, but I think they are rare.

Don't feel bad. At least you already know how to play the game. You're halfway there. I find a command I had no idea about every day.

Xiuhcoatl

@Haven, I look at it this way. If I understand systems well enough to go, yup I can break your system right there with something that is extremely easy to stop. Why shouldn't I use the knowledge I've gained through building 5-10 systems to just go, game over. Eventually, and this should be pretty quickly, systems become more advanced and this doesn't happen. If you don't put in the time or energy making your system up to par and you go against someone who has not only put in time and effort on their system, but researched other systems to make their offense more viable, then you shouldn't win. They put in more time and more effort. 

Honestly, I highly dislike the recent change to balances because it takes away your ability to use illusions defensively. Which ends up being a nerf to the magi, syssin, and domination users who have a high conceptual knowledge of the game to compensate their class.

Rashar

I will also never understand this thirst you people have for building systems and utilizing them in PK.

To me that feels like building a robot to fight somebody else's robot. What ever happened to just punching somebody in the face? Eh. I belong in a different world, I think.

Daskalos

Illusions were more or less removed as a combat possibility when aff_view was introduced.

 

My question is this: Why do you focus so much on breaking systems instead of learning how to use the -skills- to win? I know if I, as a living, breathing person, ate raw organs I'd die. It doesn't make sense.

Teani

@Rashar: same world as me, I think. Systemcombat (AI offense) makes me lose the connection I have to the game. It doesn't feel like I'm the one fighting and if I'd happen to win when on an AI, I no longer feel that exhilarating sensation I did back when AI's were more scarce and I got a kill in.

Sure, I still get a kick out of it, but there's something special about pressing down the attack button, then see the kill, rather than leaning back and watch the screen as the fight flies by and then going 'Oh, there one went down'.

Moirean

I don't really like how much things have turned into crazy AI. I was mostly playing with it when we were practicing team stuff just for the lulz to see how much could be automated. Also, it's easier to set up a few triggers for you to follow than it is to teach you a whole offense >_>

Daingean

I have certainly benefited by teaching myself the code required to have my system handle affliction routes based on what affs I believe my enemy to have - it's more efficient than the old aliases that used pre-set venom orders regardless of their aff/cure status.

But if I wanted to play a game that did everything for me, I'd be in a diku mud.

I will never automate my system beyond the helpful tracking that it does now - even my bbt's are aliases that I need to press, for the most part.

Edit - by handle, I mean it alters what affs I will deliver with my alias/macro. Not that it does the whole route for me.

Moirean

As long as combat remains as linear and affliction-focused as it is, you're hurting yourself to not follow an AI for affliction delivery. I don't necessarily LIKE that and I don't find today's PK in Aet nearly as engaging as I've found PK in other MUDs, but ah well. It's what we've got and it's not going to change (afflictions and AI only look like they will become even more central and integral to PK), despite my dreaming and hoping and begging. I've pointed out that this gradual shift into insane AI is driving away new PKers and making combat mechanical and boring for some older PKers, but I must be in the minorrity in my opinion here, as it's been made clear that not only is this heavy coding enjoyed, it's here to stay and is a core part of Aet's PK, apparently by intent.

Toz

The amount of code required to pvp at a competitive level, paired with the ability to give your offense to someone else and have them suddenly become 'good' makes me feel that, in a way, Xiuh's system-breaking takes more skill. A kind of frustrating development for IRE PK, but as it stands there's no reason at all to not automate every aspect of your system.

Alexina

I've immensely enjoyed the PK aspect of other muds I've played, some of which take as much, if not more, game/skill/equipment/zone knowledge to excel at than Aetolia. To be honest, I hate scripting. I don't find it enjoyable in the slightest. So I turn on firstaid and go help foci extractions.

Ezalor

No offense to anyone, but most of the people complaining about the "coding barrier" give up before they even try. The general attitude is pretty negative about the whole thing. Forget "aptitude" or "talent" or any of that, if you put in the time you can grasp it, especially with all the great resources available out there in system script examples and coder help. As with anything else you will fail, you will hit speedbumps, it'll take a time and energy investment. From what I've seen if you don't quit the second you don't get something or hit a difficult patch, you can actually pick it up very fast.

I'm still a very shoddy and rough coder. You really don't need to be anywhere close to a scripting god to get into PK. I've said it before but once you get a certain basic understanding of coding down most of PK success is tied into the ability to read logs, pull out data, see opportunities, and adapt. It's a time investment for sure but not nearly as impossible as it's sometimes made out to be. The admin are also constantly putting out stuff to make building a system much easier.

As far as manual vs AI effectiveness that's a totally different tangent and not one I really want to get into beyond to say that AI is indeed superior in pretty much every way.

tl;dr if you want to get into PK, make an actual serious stab at it! The initial hurdle might be daunting but once you get rolling it's really not a hard process.

Moirean

Here's my thing: A decade ago, nobody batted an eye at the time investment something like PK took. These days, it's absolutely backwards and behind the times to expect players for a game to sit and spend hours upon hours coding stuff and doing groundwork just to get to the core gameplay. Games have progressed and evolved and we as players expect to be able to get in, play, and then spend time improving to become a super GREAT player if we want. Having to invest that time just to play, period, is an outdated game design. It seems IRE wants to stick with it, and that's their prerogative, but I personally don't want to invest time in games that make me spend hours doing stuff outside of the game, like wrangling with some third-party coding client, before I can even really get to experience it, and I'll just move on. I'm invested in Aetolia after years of gameplay, so obviously that's a different story, but I don't have any interest in seriously playing other IREs for that reason.

Alexina

Re: Ezalor
That time/energy investment into something that is not even related to the game is why so many people give up. I can log into WoT-mud and spend hours trying to get the perfect stats for my hunter, but at least I am logged into the game and can chat/talk to people or whatever. Once I'm done, I can level up a bit and get into PK whenever I feel like it. I'll probably die if my zone knowledge isn't good enough to get out after engaging a superior group, but at least my adrenaline is pumping and I'm fighting the bad guys and, hopefully, my own team will be able to help me out.

Coding is just seriously boring and makes no sense and takes forever to learn just the more basic things. I tried making a prompt trigger for cmud once and failed horribly, even after people helping me out with it. And then a new class is released or pipes suddenly operate on their own balance or whatnot. It's just not worth that time/energy investment. Which is why I stick to Achaea if I want to PK in IRE -- they have player-sold systems that cost 60 credits to purchase and is updated pretty much immediately after new releases.

Xiuhcoatl

@Daskalos, I do both. You're only complaining/hearing complaints about one at a time. Technically people are complaining about both but in separate rants. IE this is the big thing right now about me. Before it was retardation/still is retardation. Before that it was carnifex fighting. Before that indorani. Then before that luminary/lycan. That's part of my time investment motto. I put in the time and effort to not only learn classes but to see ways to one up other people's systems. That way I have a tactical advantage. You wouldn't start a war right now, china v russia and give russia spears. You both want your russian soldiers using better guns. If china has more soldiers and better guns, you're not going to win it. IE, if I have better knowledge of my class v your class AND I know how to break or disorientate your system, then there's no way for you to win. You'll need to counter with getting better knowledge or a system that doesn't get disorientated. 

Ezalor

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I would much, much rather be going through the logic exercises of coding and applying myself to figure out how to translate what I want to do into code (while still being logged in and chatting, bashing, etc) than mindlessly re-rolling a character dozens of times just to get certain stats (I hated WoTMUD for this very reason). Plus the things you learn from coding have applicable uses outside the game as well!

My first ever real spar I spent half the fight hitting -myself-, which is the most fail anyone can manage. Can't get discouraged easily, gotta keep cracking at it! 

Moirean

You can have engaging, complex and tactical combat systems without a reliance on either arbitrary stats OR on excessive coding. More code doesn't suddenly make PK more complex, at the decision level. It just makes participation more complex - I'd argue that tons of coding actually limits the complexity, since you aren't making a lot of decisions about what's best when, you're just letting your code automate those choices, which you can do when a system is heavily linear.

Aetolia's become more so in that regard, with changes like rebound stacking taking a defence that used to be based on timing and skilled use turning into a mindless on/off toggle. I personally don't like the direction things are going, but I'm not in the driver's seat. I'm just along for the ride.

Ezalor

I wouldn't really say Aetolia is moving in that direction, it's always been possible (just look at how hard Xarian/Acino managed to dominate when they started automating ahead of everyone else). It's just that people have elevated the competence level far above what it was in the past, although I would say that beyond the very top it still isn't very high. It's quite easy to become an above average fighter as things are now IMO.

Also if anything a lot of coding requirements are actually being broken down with all the ease-of-use/quality-of-life things going in.

Aarbrok

I have had good rage days, and I have had bad rage days when it comes to personally wanting to learn combat, some folks have heard my frustration as I know absolutely nothing about coding, or scripting.  I have basically bare bones aliases that I manually spam in combat.  If you have ever fought me one on one, I am pretty sure it is obvious and its one of the reasons I dont try and engage in combat, outside of the general spectrum of PK, which is fine and well.

I think the problem being, win someone wants to find a win button.

I mean yeah we want to be the very best, sure.  Do I think I could ever beat someone like Daskalos or Ezalor, nope....but both of them seem to be the willing sort to teach someone.  I know Angwe took a long time explaining sentinel stuff to me until I was comfortable with it, and Illidan showed me a bit of Shaman so I wouldnt get completely roflstomped.  

This old horse ain't learning any new tricks anytime soon though, the sheer amount of AI, is pretty crazy.  It is what it is though, its only embarrassing when a 18 year old character stomps your face in with a fancy system that can do so, even then the sting doesn't last forever.

I do not know where this rant was going, its 230 AM.  And Christmas.

Throw up your hands and say Oh Well!

Oh yeah, I remember now, retardation....eating multiple slices.  Sounds like an awesome tactic....

I remember fighting in Aeon as an Occultist in Achaea and spamming snapping at people so they thought they were being triggered off hypnosis, so they would essentially hang in aeon for a long time.

If retardation seems like a problem, I feel bad for you son....may have 99 problems but game mechanics ain't one. 

Just AI and System /endrant

Haven

As far as AI vs manual is concerned, it's a matter of preference to me. I just find manual/semi-automation more satisfying than full on automation because there's just something about pressing buttons during the thick of battle that's just exhilarating for me. I'm sure full automation has its own satisfying feeling but it's just not for me. -shrug-

Even so, I don't think coding in itself is the problem. It's what we're having to code. I find coding tactical stuff highly rewarding. Stuff like your offense or active defenses or when to use certain abilities in certain situations. What I don't like is...essentially coding the base or framework for a lack of better term and the tedious upkeep. That part, I think, belongs to the game itself and should be provided for us. (Please to be adding a better first aid with togglable features).

Moirean

Sure, I *could* keep dstabbing manual venom combos. But now that's I've written a tracker, why wouldn't I stab based on what the target is afflicted with? *NOT* using AI just cripples yourself and for the most part that seems silly and detrimental to your own PK success. I just lament the fact that there aren't more options for you to pick from. Choosing the best affliction at a current moment really is a system choice and that's fine - but electing to try a different ROUTE, that's something that you decide at the human brain level. There just really aren't many of those choices in a heavily linear affliction offense, which is where classes are heading more and more.

That being said, there are some cool ideas being discussed with this report round - the Syssin alternative aff/damage routes have me pretty excited - so I see glimmers of interesting stuff we may see in the future.

Daskalos

Xiuhcoatl said:

@Daskalos, I do both. You're only complaining/hearing complaints about one at a time. Technically people are complaining about both but in separate rants. IE this is the big thing right now about me. Before it was retardation/still is retardation. Before that it was carnifex fighting. Before that indorani. Then before that luminary/lycan. That's part of my time investment motto. I put in the time and effort to not only learn classes but to see ways to one up other people's systems. That way I have a tactical advantage. You wouldn't start a war right now, china v russia and give russia spears. You both want your russian soldiers using better guns. If china has more soldiers and better guns, you're not going to win it. IE, if I have better knowledge of my class v your class AND I know how to break or disorientate your system, then there's no way for you to win. You'll need to counter with getting better knowledge or a system that doesn't get disorientated. 

\\

Halp, I'm trapped in a quote box.  I'm going to say this, and again, don't take offense because if you feel like people are ganging up on you, this is why: You were a Luminary until they nerfed Luminary. You were an Indorani  until they put a hard timer on pit. You were a Carnifex until they nerfed Carnifex. Now you're a Mage using retardation, which everyone agrees is a) almost impossible to fight in and b) multiple classes in the game cannot fight in due to inability to track\stack afflictions in it. Additionally, you rely on 'tricks' to kill such as the slice\herb thing.

 

You have a history of playing classes that need a nerf, and whoring out -one- thing until it gets nerfed, and then you move on to another trick. You've never stuck with a class post-nerf, and so a lot of people don't want to fight you, because there's no challenge in fighting someone who's going to just use cheap tricks to win. What you've done, time and again, is no different than old Luminaries who would turn on 3 different forms of passive curing and spam JUDGE TARGET until it went through due to passive curing. It wasn't skill that let those people  get kills, it was luck. You do it now in retardation, you turtle until vibes do something such as a double break and then  you go to town.

Xiuhcoatl

@Daskalos, I'm going to correct you so what you're saying is right. 

I was a luminary until my city/guild forced me to quit my class or be kicked from the city/guild. I was an indorani until they removed the ability to use shriek after tarot flinging. I still switch back to carnifex, but it can't handle 2v1's like a mage can. I was lycan until my AI got deleted, never built it back up

Edit 1: I forget which of the two it was.

Edit 2: Wait it was Arbre. So it was the guild that told me that I had to drop Luminary class or be kicked from it. Then I dropped it and she kicked me out from it and then left the guild within 2 weeks. I remember because I was super mad at her and proceeded to kill her like half a dozen times for it. Jesus, still mad for dropping one of my favorite classes. 

Medri

Moirean said:

These days, it's absolutely backwards and behind the times to expect players for a game to sit and spend hours upon hours coding stuff and doing groundwork just to get to the core gameplay. Games have progressed and evolved and we as players expect to be able to get in, play, and then spend time improving to become a super GREAT player if we want. Having to invest that time just to play, period, is an outdated game design. It seems IRE wants to stick with it, and that's their prerogative, but I personally don't want to invest time in games that make me spend hours doing stuff outside of the game, like wrangling with some third-party coding client, before I can even really get to experience it, and I'll just move on.

I'm reminded of the one time I started playing EVE Online. In EVE, you need to learn skills to do anything, which takes lots of real time (i.e. hours, days.) I started learning ship piloting skills so I could pilot better starships when someone told me that I was doing everything wrong and that I had to learn the skills that would increase my stats and learning speed first BEFORE learning anything else. The routine they had set out (which is apparently what a lot of other players use) had me potentially spending about 30 days of real-time in order to learn all stats to full.

They actually expected me to spend an entire month of real-time doing nothing but learning skills that would make my future skill-learning faster. Their response? "Well, go play another game while you wait."

This is how I feel when someone expects me to have to basically learn a programming language in order to START playing the game. The difference here is that in EVE it's actually possible, since the only thing you need is time. But not everyone has the intelligence or creativity to cook up a curing system for an IRE game from scratch. Even using someone else's system implies that you can go into the code and figure out how it works, which not everyone can do. The idea that "well, you're just not trying hard enough" is outdated and ableist.

Toz

I still maintain that AIs have 0 to do with pk skill - you can argue that it is a reflection of your understanding of pk and sure, I'm inclined to agree there, but to call it any sort of 'skill' is a misnomer. There's a few things you can do to tell if someone is an actual 'good' fighter, but with the gmcp/other changes, that list of things is decreasing sharply. I still decidedly dislike building an AI to do it for you, because that's really not skill. If you run someone else's offense, it's essentially making you function at the same level they do - frustrating as it is, I'd say that Achaea has the best way to deal with 'auto offenses'. Last I was there at least, it was IMPOSSIBLE to automate your attacks as any affliction class because there was no discernment, no static cure order, etc. So you had to actually be able to keep track of stuff in your head, adapt to the situation, and try to pull off a lock or get the kill by knowing what you were doing instead of typing kill <name> and waiting to see if your AI beat theirs.

Draiman

Aetolia has always been about coding. Just because people lacked the ability to code as efficiently back then doesn't mean it wasn't, just the player base has grown and developed a bit more, and the game has had minor changes here and there to grow with it. This is the direction we all had a hand in pushing the game. Honestly, it feels like some people went out and bought a racing game and are upset that it doesn't play like a football game.

Moirean

9 years ago people spent 6 months farming resistance gear so they could sit repeatedly casting blessing of sanctuary ad nauseum on 39 people for 6 hours a day over in Molten Core.

Gameplay evolves.

Draiman

Edit: I don't even log in anymore so I don't know why I use the forums.

Ezalor

Again with the "I just can't do it" attitude. I have never, until about 7 months ago, touched coding at all. I have absolutely no coding experience whatsoever prior to attempting Aetolian PK. I made many of these same posts from around that time, complaining that PK is too hard to get into, coding is too cryptic, etc. But the moment I stopped whining to myself and actually sat down to try it all fell together very quickly. Less than a month of time working on it before I could PK decently. If I can do it anyone can. I don't see how you can expect to succeed at -anything-, not just coding, if you give up before you even try or the moment you hit some adversity.