Automated combat

Ezalor

Just going to say, all those changes won't do diddly squat to the current combat picture. It'll just make automation more complex/variable but I don't think it'd lessen the effectiveness gap between automation and manual at all. People who refuse to put in the effort to get better now aren't suddenly going to become great PKers just because the landscape changed.

Personally I really like Aetolia's system of perfect information and it's one of the biggest reasons I don't really feel the drive to try other IRE games (that and the credit investment). It is true that the skill of combat comes almost entirely outside of any actual fighting - someone I give my system to will be just as effective as I am, as all I really do when a fight starts is type kill and watch lines fly by. I admit that I'm even starting to automate decisions such as whether to chase, how to move rooms, almost everything to eliminate user error and optimize every decision that can be made, simply because it will always end up being superior.

I'm not against integrating manual elements in but I do hate all the solutions proposed. I don't think removing discernment/making random cure orders is going to do jack unicorns to making manual better; all it's going to promote is more possibilities to code and account for in an AI. I do like Ilyon's suggestion the best out of any presented and I did end up manualing quite a bit on my Templar due to the vast amounts of routes and strategies previously available to them (a few have been made obsolete now though). Lots of switching strategies/routes mid-combat based on what my opponent was adept at blocking/curing/if they were playing defensively/etc. Even then the decision making was just to switch between different AI sets, heh.

Automation is just a natural part of how MUDs play out I think and there's not really much you can do to change that. If you really wanted to manual limb classes are great for that and I actually think that might be the best way to play them as optimizing a limb AI is so ridiculously hard. Of course you still need all the tracking and such but the actual combat part would have to be manual.

EDIT: Well there is a way to make automation obsolete, and that's just to make combat so simple that there is no point. I believe WoTMUD is like this where you just walk into a room and press a button to initiate combat.

Daskalos

But isn't that exactly what you've done now, Ezalor, by your own admission? You push a button and watch as it initiates combat. The problem with doing it as you've done it is that you're creating an arms race. Say you decide to distribute your system to people on your side. Suddenly, half the game has '1 button win' while the other half lags behind. Say I go out and write an offense for the life side and distribute it. Now it's 1 button win for my side and we've got one thing all over the place.  What's the difference in you and I writing this 1 button win offense or if we let the game just handle it?

I think a large part of the issue is how many afflictions we've introduced into the game, but that's me. It's far too easy to stop everything now. Whatever happened to a good ol vlock being all you need?

Ezalor

Yes but there was a lot of work going into building my button. I mean for other MUDs there is actually no advanced option beyond typing kill person and then watching attacks generated by the server happen. No real user input before or during the fight beyond grinding for levels/gear. As I said during combat I don't really do anything at all but I've spent countless hours building the scripts and such to make that possible.

I've always felt that the complexity possible is what set IRE MUDs apart from every other generic grind-fight one. This complexity does necessitate coding but I really don't see how you have one without the other. Personally I would really hate if Aetolia was dumbed down into very casual simplicity as its complex system was the very reason I got into it.

As far as the arms race, I think that's a good thing. Constantly push the envelope and force people to get better if they want to be at the top. It's a natural progression - in any game, over time, the ceiling will be raised and people will need to get better to reach it. That said I haven't actually given any of my stuff to anyone (I actually offered it to a few people once upon a time but no one took it up because I wasn't a big name combatant then). Perhaps some day I will feel like releasing it into the public but then I'm sure some lifer will eventually develop something more complex and better. @Kaeus and I progressed together for a month or two and the constant competition and him overtaking me is the only reason I had to put as much effort into my AI as I did. 

Competition is a good thing! I have to admit PK's become rather boring and I've stopped really actively taking part in it simply because no one is really forcing improvement on the lifer side. Back when @Isto, @Illidan, and @Kaeus were all active and trouncing me was the most fun I've had in PK as I constantly had stuff to work on. Come back @Kaeus!!!!

Daskalos

The arms race is only good as long as it doesn't prevent new players from getting involved, and right now, we have a pretty high entry point, in that not only do you have to learn defense but also offense and automate it to be able to compete. That's why I've been a big proponent of an overall combat slowdown (not just the 7%) but doubling all times. Fights would take longer, but instead of a 2 second window to make a decision, you have 4. It would make manual fighting possible again.

Ezalor

I really don't feel like it's hard at all for new players to get involved. Granted I did buy a curing system so that part of the hurdle was cleared for me, but there are great public systems both paid and free available for people now too. The competent combat level of Aetolia really isn't that high. As stuff gets more complicated more stuff is also made available publicly, so I don't feel like an escalating ceiling is really a big deal for getting into combat.

I've said it a billion times in this thread already but it really only took less than a month for me to go from complete non-scripting no-code-knowledge noncom to a decent PKer. I fought a lot, I died a lot, I broke stuff a lot, but it was -fun-. I really mean it when I say if I can do it anyone can. Just gotta really set your mind onto it.

EDIT: An overarching slowdown is nice food for thought but you'd really need to expand options against running and such. Seems like a bigger project than simply doubling all times but it is a nice option to take into consideration and one I personally like far better than the other ones presented.

Slyphe

Nerd rage as a result of that picture alone is reaching maximum levels.

Medri

Slyphe said:

Nerd rage as a result of that picture alone is reaching maximum levels.

Irruel

The more I think about randomising herb cure orders, the more I am against it.
It would break shaman, and I'm not sure how it could be fixed.
Also, as Ezalor has said, this is one of the ways Aetolia is unique.

By providing as much information as they do, tracking in Aetolia really has become simple, and therefore less of a barrier.

I do think though, that as each class is 'revamped' and with each liaison round, the opportunity to lessen the importance of perfect attack selection (you'll note I didn't say perfect tracking), is taken.

With Shaman, I need to know which of the four omen affs is there or not. I don't need a script that chooses whether to apply them withing 5ms of each balance regain. I can make the decision manually, but I can't have it being randomly cured, and I must know exactly when it is cured.

Which means it is in a pretty good place, right?

It's a shame we don't have cheaper systems for sale here.

Angwe

Irruel said:

It's a shame we don't have cheaper systems for sale here.

Quoted for truth. If anything, that's the biggest barricade to novii joining Aetolian combat. I rarely hear anyone complain about creating a complex aff tracker because they can never even get to that point- a basic system that supports their class, or that I know how to work on, costs 70USD.

Ezalor

Well someone go convince Vadi to come to Aetolia.

Oleis

I haven't wanted to say anything specific (and I still won't really), but expect us to make steps toward lessening that burden as the HTML5 client's scripting capabilities improve.

Toz

Pressing a single button and letting your system go isn't skill. I can program a robot to out-run any human athlete in the world, that doesn't make me an Olympic runner. That makes me a good coder. What AIs do is take away the requirement for skill and steadily build up until there is nothing left to build beyond. That's just how things go - there are a finite amount of variables, which means that, for every fight, there is ONE optimal solution. So, to explain why I don't like how you have to (don't even try to say you don't have to automate to be competitive, because I can disprove that - and will, if I must), let's take it to the extreme.

Imagine a one on one duel at NoT. Each person is the same class, each using THE optimal strategy against their opponent. Who wins? The one who starts their offense best, OR the one who gets less screwed by RNG (epilepsy ticks, secrets proc, etc). How is that skill? Your rely on a flawless AI and RNG to achieve victory. There's no combat skill involved, all you've proven is you can solve an algorithm. Congratulations, you're a good coder. But, just as 'good coder' does not translate into 'good runner', so too does having a good AI not make you a 'good fighter'. PK in IRE games has always been something I've tried to work at, it's something that takes years to master, and automating it does more than cheapens it, it ruins the whole point of competition. There's a reason we have athletes instead of machines, why our actors aren't all CGI, and these reasons are why AI is so bad. Fighting is about the human element, and the less code there is to be abused, the better.

Let's look at another one on one duel. Same scenario, but different classes. Who wins? Again, in a perfect world, it'd be the same situation - but here, the only one who will win is the one whose class does better. If it's a monk versus a Templar, the monk SHOULD win because knight classes typically have trouble fighting against monks due to their fighting styles. The 'counter' class will win, which turns combat into glorified rock-paper-scissors.

Tl;dr is this: Automation is bad because the arms race WILL end in a stalemate that is entirely worthless for real combat due to the limited number of variables.

Kaeus

You are assuming the environment of the game never changes, when it is constantly changing. This can be attributed to new skills being introduced, new methods of handling curing, use of skills beyond how they were used before, etc. In this environment, unless everyone else stopped improving, I'm NEVER done adjusting my AI or making tweaks to how I handle afflictions. 

I also have multiple AI's that I can use, and that I tend to switch around mid combat in order to try and overcome my opponent. I could automate this too I suppose, but I enjoy tweaking things and switching around manually to try and throw my opponent off.

Haven

Kaeus said:

You are assuming the environment of the game never changes, when it is constantly changing. This can be attributed to new skills being introduced, new methods of handling curing, use of skills beyond how they were used before, etc. In this environment, unless everyone else stopped improving, I'm NEVER done adjusting my AI or making tweaks to how I handle afflictions. 

I also have multiple AI's that I can use, and that I tend to switch around mid combat in order to try and overcome my opponent. I could automate this too I suppose, but I enjoy tweaking things and switching around manually to try and throw my opponent off.

You're misunderstanding his point. He's talking about the end game and there is an end to this road because like he said there are a finite number of variables.

Honestly, if people want to automate or what have you, I don't really see a reason to stop them from doing so. What I do have an issue with is when that automation is a requirement to enter combat. At this point in time (or at least this was the case when I last played in August) full automation isn't a requirement, just a solid (and popular among the top-tier) option.

Irruel

This discussion goes back and forth, and no one will convince or be convinced.

We can all agree that most current class mechanics are too difficult to manage manually.

Oleis mentioning the web client does bring something up. If I could:

1. accurately see, via my GUI, all the information I need about my target's state
2. have enough time between rounds to select my next optimal attack (3 seconds and higher is a sweet spot for me personally)
3. not have to choose precisely when balance is regained - i.e. use the full 3 seconds between attack to choose

Then manual/slightly-semi-auto offenses could be on par with the AIs, though obviously only, as you said Toz, when the player puts enough time into it to get good.

No venom class will ever meet requirement (3) though, which puts the game in an awkward position.

Toz

You need to automate, because the AI setup has trickled down. If you don't automate, you're going to lose against anyone with a half-decent AI, and those aren't hard to make or get.

Hit rebounding? They won't do it nearly as often. Accidentally hit with the same venom twice? They won't. Lose track of what affs they have? They don't. Combat is all about mistakes, that's what makes it a competition - and you'll make more mistakes than my AI will quite reliably.

Ezalor

I disagree entirely with the premise of your post @Toz. Coding knowledge is a necessity but your success is nowhere near impacted solely by coding knowledge. I'd say it's something like 20% ability to code and 80% ability to review your logs and identify things -to- code. So more like the skill/work aspect comes from your ability to assess logs. Kinda like reviewing replays in something like LoL or Starcraft.

Moirean

Top level gaming tournaments, like Starcraft or WoW arenas don't let you use mods, though. That kind of stuff is seen as training wheels to become good, not things that augment - or in your case, apparently, Ezalor, ARE - your combat.

Toz

You're ignoring - either intentionally or otherwise - the bulk of my argument. You're not IMPROVING YOURSELF. You are improving a system that executes flawlessly on your behalf. Even if it's cobbled together in bulky if/then statements, it's still never going to not do those things so long as the code is sound. Just as there is a difference between coaching and playing, just as there is a difference between saying (or in this case, ordering) and doing, so too are AI and actually being able to PK removed from each other.

Kaeus

This also isnt WoW or Starcraft, and I am glad that it isnt. WoW is probably one of the worst examples of fun PvP in my mind.

Moirean

Kaeus said:

This also isnt WoW or Starcraft, and I am glad that it isnt. WoW is probably one of the worst examples of fun PvP in my mind.

Eh, that's a strawman. I'm not saying we should copy WoW's design. I'm pointing out how high level, professional video game PvP is handled. Fighter game tournaments are the same. Automation is not allowed, just like, as Toz says, you can't enhance your body with cyborg attachments for the Olympics because people are simply by design not as good as computers at certain things. In the case of PvP, it's blazing fast logic processing - that's WHY computers were created. 

As long as the system is based on just logical computation, a computer is always going to win. That's why AI isn't fun for most people. You aren't fighting against another human and their choices, you're pitting your code against their code. It's also why AI is inevitable and why you're gimping yourself by not using it - Aetolia's combat is, in many areas, linear and based on logical choices. Is there rebounding? Raze it, otherwise hit. Do they have x and y afflictions? Deliver z affliction. Until that gets changed, AI is simply the best thing to be using. I don't really blame you guys for taking it to the level that you have, but I'm not going to pretend that I applaud it and I'm mildly disturbed that you guys consider this actual PK.

Areka

I think you are utterly taking your aptitude/ability/experience for granted when it comes to coding expectations, @ezalor. For many of us (especially for casual gamers or people just getting their toes wet in MUDs - yes, there are always exceptions, but it's like the lower end to laymen, which are the most common ground, are getting utterly forgotten in this), coding is difficult, and learning a new language (yes, it is a language) is difficult, and expecting as an entry-level-standard for us to learn an entire language for the sake of being able to participate beyond 'jab x' is really unfair, unreasonable and unrealistic. 

Edit: And none of this is even including actually understanding a class, speeds, other classes, and your own ins and outs. 

Ezalor

Going to refer to Draiman's previous post about buying a racing game and complaining it isn't a football game. IRE MUDs have always been built with complex mechanics and advertised as much. Stripping it down and/or changing the paradigm of combat entirely because some people aren't as successful as they think they should be at it seems rather silly. Even the other IRE games without discernment or such I still think automation would hands down beat manual there. I may be wrong though, haven't tried PKing in them.

I get that it's not for everyone but calling it "skill-less" and whatnot is extremely insulting for the people who have actually put the time in rather than simply whine to try to change the game into something that fits them personally. Just strikes me as rationalization for your own shortcomings. Sure it might not be what you personally want or enjoy but there are people who enjoy these things and trying to trivialize their effort into excelling at it is quite childish. You might not be good at it and you might not like it but that doesn't automatically make everyone who is and does "skill-less."

@Areka again, I think you would be very surprised at just how shoddy my grasp of coding actually is. It is beyond basic and I know maybe 10% of the entire capabilities of the language I use. I remember making an offer to show you how to set up everything you'd need the last time we had a conversation about this and you made no effort at all to take that up. As far as learning all the ins and outs and such, that can only really come from actually diving headfirst into fighting and gaining that experience. To get better at anything you actually need to do it and try to get better, not give up instantly.

Areka

I do not have the time, ability or inclination to devote to building a system. I am still focused upon understanding the ins and outs of my class, let alone understanding a cascading wave of jargon and symbols to make something move. Yes, you have offered, and yes, I have no glimpses of even pretending to be a combatant or ever becoming so - I just want to be useful, and even just looking through the system's I've used, I find it utterly baffling and overwhelming to just adjust something. I think YOU would be very surprised as to just how many other people there are out there that are in this same situation/bracket, and are completely underestimating the amount of investment it takes to get over the hurdles of getting started/entering. 

Daskalos

Since when is having a rational, mature conversation, whining, Ezalor?

I can script. I can write AI's (and have). Doesn't mean I believe that's the direction the game should go in - but since it IS here, we either need to go all in and make every class as easy to automate as BB (wide  range of abilities at their disposal, wide affliction stack, very little guesswork) or back off and put some randomness back into it.

Fights have become entirely too much about one false tick with epilepsy or stupidity, or a crazy combination that stops the other side. We've become momentum based and it's very easy to pile on these days. I worry that we're getting to a point where it's going to be like the tryptycha games in the Y400 games that everyone had all zeros and it was literally 'he who laid the first tile, won the game'.

Ezalor

I can understand the time and inclination argument (although if you don't have the time or inclination, why do you expect to be able to PK at all?) but really, I'm sounding like a broken record, don't bring ability into something that will stop anyone from coding. I agree completely that learning by yourself is ridiculously hard but finding someone who will actually sit down and explain what this does or why it does this makes it infinitely easier. I think part of the problem of this "impossible hurdle" perception of getting into coding comes from trying to figure it out on your own. I absolutely would not have been able to do so and it was Lanira's tutoring that helped it all fall into place for me.

If trying to figure it out on your own is the reason someone has gotten discouraged from attempting coding, that's totally understandable. Having actual help makes it 100x easier and I don't think there is any shortage of people across various systems in the Aetolian community willing and happy to be that help. You do have to come in with a good attitude and willingness to improve yourself though, don't simply expect someone to hand you some code or build something for you, but I think as long as the enthusiasm/motivation is there tons of people are willing to walk you through it step-by-step.

Moirean

Ezalor said:

Going to refer to Draiman's previous post about buying a racing game and complaining it isn't a football game. IRE MUDs have always been built with complex mechanics and advertised as much. Stripping it down and/or changing the paradigm of combat entirely because some people aren't as successful as they think they should be at it seems rather silly. 

I get that it's not for everyone but calling it "skill-less" and whatnot is extremely insulting for the people who have actually put the time in rather than simply whine to try to change the game into something that fits them personally. Just strikes me as rationalization for your own shortcomings.

I'm done with this conversation. If you can't see how this is bad for the health of the game and are saying that we're just whining because we "suck at PK", you are missing the entire core of this discussion.

Toz

Yeah, no. I'm capable of coding, I'm capable of writing an AI. And I have one that works more than well enough for what pvp I do. That being said, I don't care much for being a "top tier fighter" if that involves writing code stacks, testing code stacks, and repeating for forever. That's not what pvp should be - the automation in Achaea, for instance? Curing only. You CANNOT write an AI for Achaea because of the randomized variables. As such, you see more clever tactics, more thought being put in than simply attacking in a linear progression. They also have illusions which further raises the skillcap of the class that they're available to. You talk about 'dumbing it down' - that's the opposite of what I'm suggesting. Combat IS dumbed down. Combat is reduced to a set of linear decisions. You do this. Then you do that. Then they cured the first thing so you do it again. And you keep on hindering, hindering, hindering until they're locked down and you can win. Take away discernment and, suddenly, combat is more about figuring out what is REALLY important, because the ability to keep a precious few things on the target reliably is what matters more than loading them up with precision afflictions. You start to have to make choices - do I waste time throwing clumsiness in when it might NOT actually stop them from curing asthma, or do I go straight for a lock?

You cannot have both sides. You cannot claim that coding is easy/simple, then claim that arguing AGAINST coding is making things too easy/simple/dumbed down. So, pick one. Is coding a complex barrier to entry that separates the good from the bad? Is that how we should, in your opinion, decide who the 'better' fighter is? Or is coding a simple task, that (at least as I think) dumbs down combat?

EDIT: I'm not calling AI's 'skill-less'. I'm saying that AI != good at pvp. I can stat-track and know the mechanics about softball all I want, but that doesn't make me an all-star. There's a space between knowledge and results that occurs in all TRUE competition that automated offense robs everyone of. So, congratulations - you know how to make code work. You know the theory. But don't claim you're applying it yourself, because you aren't. You're letting a system do it for you, and everyone else has to as well in order to be able to compete. It's the steroids of IRE, the Patriots Scandal of combat, an advantage that should not be, because it's detrimental. Look again at my post, explaining the only 2 ways the 'fights of the future' will go. Decide if you want a win to be determined by RNG, or by class pick.

Areka

Ability IS a hurdle. Coding and script ties as much into innate aptitudes as much as dance or music, math, art, martial arts, and so on. No one is suggesting that you should be able to be a top tier combatant without investing that time to either muscle through where you don't have the aptitude, or have the aptitude, but what IS being suggested is that things need to be adjusted from their current in-between standing to make combat more -accessible-. 

It shouldn't be an acceptable expectation for the entry levels (low and mid tiers) of combat to require the same amount of investment of time as one puts into their RL jobs that earn their income. 

Ezalor

Daskalos said:

Since when is having a rational, mature conversation, whining, Ezalor?

I can script. I can write AI's (and have). Doesn't mean I believe that's the direction the game should go in - but since it IS here, we either need to go all in and make every class as easy to automate as BB (wide  range of abilities at their disposal, wide affliction stack, very little guesswork) or back off and put some randomness back into it.

Fights have become entirely too much about one false tick with epilepsy or stupidity, or a crazy combination that stops the other side. We've become momentum based and it's very easy to pile on these days. I worry that we're getting to a point where it's going to be like the tryptycha games in the Y400 games that everyone had all zeros and it was literally 'he who laid the first tile, won the game'.

Bad choice of words/harshness from me, and not the phrasing that I should have used, so sorry if I offended anyone there. Fighting is nowhere near the level of perfection where a stupidity/epilepsy/RNG tick will decide a fight. When two people with identical systems match up against each other this becomes true but then there will always be things that can be improved even further by either person to gain the edge then.

As far as ease of coding, all affliction classes are as easy to code for as one another really (Sentinels kind of being an exception to that). You say BB is somehow this super easy class to code but I took about 1/10th the time making my Templar as I did my BB and I think my Templar would win, though no way to know really without mashing my characters against each other. I wouldn't say at all that any aff class is significantly harder or more complex than any other. Aff classes are indeed far far easier to automate than limb classes but this also has the flip side where limb classes can actually be very successful going manual.

Areka said:

Ability IS a hurdle. Coding and script ties as much into innate aptitudes as much as dance or music, math, art, martial arts, and so on. No one is suggesting that you should be able to be a top tier combatant without investing that time to either muscle through where you don't have the aptitude, or have the aptitude, but what IS being suggested is that things need to be adjusted from their current in-between standing to make combat more -accessible-. 

It shouldn't be an acceptable expectation for the entry levels (low and mid tiers) of combat to require the same amount of investment of time as one puts into their RL jobs that earn their income. 

I would receive an F- if I ever enrolled into a computer programming class with my current knowledge. Entry level -doesn't- take that much time investment. Sure you won't be able to spring to the top without that time investment but that's really true of all things. It doesn't seem like I'm ever going to be able to convince you by just talking, so really just go out and try once with someone walking you through the steps.