Rogues: Seeking Feedback/Suggestions

Ictinus · November 2022

Hi folks,

As we continue to push forward in our project to bolster org identity and themes, we're discussing possibilities for increasing support for rogues (read: cityless players) given the relative stark lines being drawn when it comes to city identity in recent months.

I've read over the thread on this: https://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/4363/lets-talk-about-rogue-support-or-if-you-prefer-cities-have-too-much-mechanical-power-over-players , and we are tentatively willing to explore some options and updates here to make this less of a pain point for those who want to play without a city.

To that end I've made this thread to gather feedback and suggestions so that we can make a more informed decision on how to proceed. Feel free to throw your ideas or comments in.

Thanks in advance!

Tetchta · November 2022

I think that being cityless has a ton of consequences baked into it by default (you're outside the group, you miss out on city specific events and contests and credit sales, you don't get to fight in wars, the list is pretty enormous) that some of the mechanics that classically have been city-only are a bit too punishing to give up when you leave a city. At one point, you lost anatomy (haha nobody gets that now, suckers!) and ylem fiends (even artifact ones, though this is no longer the case) which really made it rough to do PVE. I'm sure some folk would say something about Aegis here too, which has become pivotal in PVP. There was also losing out on the 60 lessons-per-learning thing which felt like a good qol change for the game as a whole, so losing it when you become cityless seemed like an unnecessary kick in the nuts.

Personally, I don't think being cityless should impact a ton of the core mechanics of the game like that. Having a major hit in PVE, or PVP, or QOL outside of the benefits already garnered from being in a city felt needlessly punishing when I was experiencing it. You already lose so much (which is a good thing, imo. Losing war participation, the social network etc all seem fair to me.)

I'm basically just repeating myself here, though, from what I've already said, so, yeah. Just anything I said in that thread I still agree with basically. It's def more of a "the whole picture is pretty bad" thing, not necessarily that each individual component is a huge kick in the sack or something.

Seurimas · November 2022

I think something like a "Rogue's Redoubt" near Esterport with a few essentials would be nice. For example:

Just a handful of guards, to provide the bare minimum of reprieve from battles.
Private and/or concealed room(s), to hide a little or hold meetings.
Watered down ylem functionality, like ylem mists, a single amulet for sale each season, and a single manipulation.
Perhaps additional research-related functionality that could be unlocked via a grind. These could be quests that count as "Production" or "ylem mine" quests for milestone purposes, as well.

It could be accessible to non-rogues, to serve as a neutral place for all.

Tetchta · November 2022

I like aspects of that idea (esp being able to somehow still get mist turnins), but I'm already iffy on whether non-rogues should be able to have guards protecting them--I think being way less safe is one of the fair tradeoffs of being a rogue.

Seurimas · November 2022

Tetchta said:
I like aspects of that idea (esp being able to somehow still get mist turnins), but I'm already iffy on whether non-rogues should be able to have guards protecting them--I think being way less safe is one of the fair tradeoffs of being a rogue.

I'm thinking very watered down guards as well. Like, 1 or 2 that might come to your defense. Maybe if you pay them? Bodyguards you'd have to keep on retainer who'd just escort you around the redoubt to protect you from seedy sorts that congregate there?

Iazamat · November 2022

Making rogues viable again means that (OOC) problematic elements can be safely dismissed without feeling required to offer them a safe harbour for their constant antagonism, since they tend to embed themselves knowing that someone has to take them in due to rules that characters must be given a chance or even a path to earning citizenship. It lessens their ability to hinder org development and progress and takes the onus off of player leadership to "do the right thing", which in turn could cause them to reconsider the way they're playing the game without completely destroying their ability to play the game.

Edhain · November 2022

I don't really like the guards idea either, but I do like the idea of a place where cityless people could do something about ylem. Either that, or different milestones/targets for those who are specifically not citizens of any city, like specific quests... not sure. Maybe rogues should be able to align themselves to a tether somehow at least.

edit: There's that one area in the game that is player-created with guards and special gates and such, Iron Hill. I love the idea of working on Shapeshifting packs to make them more capable of community. It'd be nice to lean into player-created attempts at communities, maybe set up a (very difficult) way that multple PCs working together can make their own pylons or ylem research whatsits.

Iazamat · November 2022

If rogues want guards, they can hire players acting as mercenaries (or employ rogue PvPers). If they want rooms for hiding and holding meetings, they can build their own house or use someone's haven. I don't see any reason rogues would need these sorts of things.

Teflin · November 2022

I second the "Rouges Redoubt" idea that Seur posited. The biggest issue for me is honestly ylem related things like mist turnins and mines. As well as production related things. I also feel like shapeshifing packs could get a little bit of work, that alone if kind of a rougeish mechanic that could be used to form those social networks outside of a city and provide a point for cityless conflict.

Edit: I to agree with not having guards or hideyholes for rouges as a feature.

Phoenecia · November 2022

So, I've not played regularly in a long time, but when I was still playing, I made the choice to go cityless, and I did so for a number of reasons, as painful of an experience as it was. If you want to understand the plight of rogues and how to make things more enjoyable, you need to consider WHY players/characters choose to go cityless in the first place.

* Character/city politics can be stressful and a huge headache. For me personally, this was a large reason why I went cityless, but I'd heard from other people that had gone rogue over the years that had this reasoning too. Real life is sucky and stressful enough with having to navigate the minefield that is social niceties, or all the wheeling and dealing that comes with politics. Piss off the wrong people in-character (or if players just happen to not like you), you might find your advancement in a city stunted or halted entirely. Rather than deal with it, some people might find it more preferable or healthier to just distance themselves from it or separate themselves from it entirely.

* The ideologies/RP of the existing cities are unappealing. As weird as it might sound, some people might not gel with the themes or RP of a given city or none of the options fit the character concept a player might have, and they don't want to try and shoehorn their character into a city too hard. Some people might just want to play an unaffiliated drifter. It's an RP game, people having freedom and options should be a good thing.

* 'Switching sides' had an extremely prohibitive and punishing lesson cost. I don't know if this still applies now that mirror classes are a thing, but before if you wanted to go to a different city but didn't want or couldn't join the other city on the same side you were on, the only option was to swap sides, but doing so meant you'd lose lessons and access to a lot of the classes you had before. If you can't afford that cost, you're kind of SOL, and the only other option is to just go cityless. You keep all you classes and skills, but you're still kind of cut off from everything else.

Things that made being a rogue an unenjoyable experience:

* Losing access to ylem stuff. If you enjoy bashing, this one hurts the most. No access to pylon manipulations, a lot of ylem artifacts become useless, you can't turn in mists, you can't get orbs. Giving up participating in leyline conflicts isn't as hard a pill to swallow as giving up the PvE benefits.

* Losing the extra lesson learning from tutors. You wouldn't think this would be so bad to lose, but you don't realize how convenient it is until you no longer have access to it.

* RP can be tougher to find. This is something you kind of accept with the territory of going rogue, and it forces you to be more acting in seeking out interaction. Unfortunately, you putting in the effort to stay relevant doesn't always mean other people will extend the same amount of effort to you. It's not reasonable to expect gods and other players to interact with you on a major, story-impacting level on a regular basis. For some people, that's fine, but for others it can be a slog.

* Some systems and mechanics are locked to city membership. When Farming and the other production skills came out, I was extremely excited. Being a major crafter, it meant that I could produce my own resources and not really have to worry about relying on a bigger org for stuff... And then I discovered that Farms, and later mines, could only be owned by people in a city. That really sucked, and when I went cityless some time after that, it made crafting extremely difficult. To add salt to the wound, at the time it didn't feel like that such a system really needed to be tied to citizenship.

* The attitude towards rogues over the years has generally been extremely hostile. This has been a problem from both players and administration for a long time, and would probably be the biggest one in need of changing. Let's face it: players that play rogue characters are the minority of the game's population. Always have been. But the attitude towards them has always been disproportionately hostile. 'The game isn't made to cater to rogues', 'We have no plans to cater to rogues', 'The game is designed for players to have to pick a side'. The general attitude has always felt like if you chose to be a rogue, you were disengaging with the game and its players and there was something wrong with you. I dunno - have you tried RPing with someone who spends like 6 hours a day bashing? An activity that kind of demands a lot of attention and requires you to disregard everything else for long periods of time? A lot of stuff caters towards bashing, so why not cater just a tiny bit to rogues?

Things that might make being rogue more enjoyable:

I do agree with the whole creating a 'neutral' or pseudo-organizational hub, maybe as something that could be opted into. It could be a mercenary faction, an NPC city, or whatever the heck. Something that'd provide some benefits of a city, but not full benefits. Characters wouldn't be able to get leadership positions (if you're a rogue, you probably wouldn't care for politics anyway), but still get little things like limited ylem benefits, tutors, access to production things like farming/mining/etc. Guard protection? ...enh. Could take it or leave it, honestly. Very limited protection is probably okay as long as it's nothing on the same level as a full city. The other thing about having rogues being part of a faction or NPC-run organization is that it could give players and their characters an in to participating in events if they wanted. Since the game has apparently moved to more 1v1v1v1 kind of model, theoretically throwing in another smaller organization of players wouldn't be too difficult, particularly if it was a faction that could throw support behind whoever it wanted or pledged its loyalty to the highest bigger. Why wouldn't this be an issue? Rogues aren't that numerous to begin with, and if they're part of an NPC organization, including avenues for participation wouldn't be as difficult since you're not catering to individual rogues. And if the org were to happen to become influential or had some strong players in it, it might force cities to try and sway the rogue element a little more by either negotiating incentives to stay out of a conflict or try to win them over to their side. Wishful thinking, but it could happen.

But the main thing is that people really need to stop thinking that rogues are a detriment to the game. It's an RP game - you have your RP, let them have theirs. Having more options isn't necessarily a bad thing. And if you're still worried... Seriously. Of the active players, how many do you think are rogues? It's probably not a lot. Why continue to punish a small group of players that are already having a much less fulfilling playing experience instead of giving them small things that would actually let them ENJOY playing and want to keep logging in?

Tina · November 2022

The loss of ylem abilities, research, and all that is a major hinderance to playing rogue. The mechanical benefits you gain from that just joining a city, even now in the revamp when it has been somewhat reduced, is still staggering. Some kind of ylem system for them would be needed.

More on the RP than the mechanics side there is a stigma about rogue players. No city really wants to support and employ rogues for anything substantial. Generally looked down on and viewed as untrustworthy and trouble makers. There was a while that admin were actively enforcing cities to not support rogues or mercenary like orgs cause they would be too complicated to properly police and regulate. So from an RP perspective, cities need a reason to work with and encourage some kinda relations with rogues. A way mercenaries can benefit the cities, and rogues can profit off good city relations. Not sure how that works really.

Perhaps a system where a certain number of rogues can form a mercenary group, and each season or year cities can bid to employ the mercenary groups. For the term of the contract, the mercenary band will be employed for the city that won the bid and do services for them, and in return they'll get the ylem/mechanical benefits that the city's citizens normally get? Take care of both issues with one system. Maybe to give the rogues some more power instead of the normal highest bid wins, let them see all the bids their group got, and they get to pick which bid they accept, who they want to work for under what terms.

Eaku · November 2022

Hi - currently city and guildless, and, though I don't think either will last much longer, I would do it again (no hate to Duiran, love you guys, but it was good RP and no other way forward felt right for the character). That said, I do have some thoughts and a few criticisms of the rogue experience, though please take them with the grain or two of salt that it's not been an active couple months of gameplay for me due to general burnout (and maybe partly because of what being a rogue is like, but honestly I think it's mostly just burnout and don't want to be overdramatic) and so I can't weigh in as heavily or specifically.

Firstly, in terms of community: yeah it's real quiet without citytells and guildtells, though ofc you can be a guilded rogue. I don't really see this as an issue beyond it being more difficult to find people for RP, because it's a natural result of the choice to leave a city and not join another one. In the same vein it can be hard to get involved in things because it's real hard to know if anything is going on, but again, that seems like a reasonable result. Biggest problem I have here is that I still type cwho and gwho by habit which is momentarily depressing. I am mostly fine with quiet anyway. I still pop into webs sometimes and shoot the shit OOC so I don't think there's much of a problem overall in that regard.

Someone who doesn't have congregation and order tells going on might have it rougher than I do, won't speak for them. Definitely no denying it's harder to get RP but like I've said I don't really mind the quiet and so also don't really put in the effort to run people down and force them to converse with me.

The biggest problems I have with being a rogue are mechanical. Mist is worthless and thus so are my salvage goggles and gauntlet (not super high level, I mostly wanted permanence and off balance absorbing). I have probably bashed more in these few months of being a rogue than I have in at least a year beforehand (this is not saying a lot) and I've harvested approximately 0 mist. Also I'm slower for two reasons: I am not picked up in most org wide blessings (I actually think this is perfectly fine and an absolutely reasonable consequence of rogueing around) and when I do get a blessing I can't use grace. Which does add up to me being just slower mechanically because I'm not in a city, even when I put in extra effort to earn a blessing, which sucks. I would like to once more be fast, please.

Not having to go through people for ylem amulets would be nice but it's also not super difficult to find someone in a city willing to buy one for me (but I also do not play a character who is particularly contentious to either Duiran or Enorian (knock on wood)). Orbs are similar but feel worse to ask for for whatever reason.

Other mechanical problems mentioned above and in the previous thread are valid concerns but do not personally hit me much.

Finally, touching on the idea of a rogue haven or guards - I don't personally see the need. Esterport or Delve both could work quite well as hubs to base yourself from but I just sit in front of the forge in the Seer's Wood for most of my gameplay experience currently. Havens or housing can cover something more specific if you want it (housing is real expensive though so probably more realistic to use havens). I'll decide where to live and use my wilderness housing deed any minute now copium. There are also several random villages and bars etc out in the world that could probably fit a specific vibe!

As far as guards, I just don't need them. I don't think I've been attacked a single time since going rogue. This might be more of an issue for other players and characters I guess, so I'll refrain from weighing in too much.

Anyway, like I mentioned this might not be personally relevant for me much longer (although who knows how the rp will go I never thought Eaku would leave Duiran or the Sentinels either lol) but I'm hardly the first rogue nor will I be the last and thought I should weigh in on the parts I thought were most obnoxious for that reason.

tldr please let me do ylem junk and be fast and sorry if this is hard to read I'm being irresponsible at work and posting from my phone

Sibatti · November 2022

I don't mind some support for rogues to make it less painful for merely existing, but I am very against the idea of a unified rogue hub that's organized to the extent that it would be considered another world player - one that demands to be taken into consideration as some unified entity. The idea of mercenaries or solders of cause isn't new, but being unaffiliated should not automatically mean you are affiliated with other unaffiliated folk. That is, in fact, shifting the entire idea of "I want to be rogue" to "I just want my own organization with other people to do my own thing in".

Current events in-game are already shaping up for more flexible and nuanced avenues of conflict. Maybe not today, but I wouldn't consider it fully off the table to picture a conflict that has Bloodloch and Duiran opposing Enorian, or Enorian and Spinesreach opposing Bloodloch. Story beats would have to continue being massaged out, and it's a slow but gradual process to untangle ages-old assumptions about what is right and what isn't - but it's moving in the right direction.

I also think reducing cities to 'meh politics' is also a gross underestimation of what a nation represents. It's entirely baffling to me why people think that a world power can be reduced to whatever players are currently leading it, that you might disagree with or take umbrage at. England survived Henry VIII, after all. Regimes change. I would very much like to tackle or talk about this idea, though it isn't fully aligned with the topic of this thread. I don't think it should be an easy or simple thing for someone to be driven out of an org, or for a city to feel like there is only "one way" to play it, or else. I've been trying to beat Duiran into rethinking this concept, to varying levels of success, but it's a work in progress.

I'm more interested in tackling whatever problem/systems are currently preventing people from contributing to existing systems, and finding ways for rogues to contribute to a rich and interwoven story that is - like it or not - featuring four distinct world powers with some reshaped (and very exciting) identities. I would absolutely love to be able to have the most appealing production hub for rogues to process their farms/mines through.

When we argue about why the game is or isn't built for rogues, I think one first has to address the perception of it being a selfish/antisocial/antiestablishment way of play. It would be interesting if there were small ways for rogues to enter into agreements with nations and lease certain benefits using something adjacent to the diplomacy system. Production already has a lot of underutilized ideas, particularly around the idea of processing fees for non-citizens. Unless I'm missing something, I'm really not sure why only cities can have farms/mines/etc.? It seems like a ripe opportunity for interesting trade.

Pypo · November 2022

One of the major questions I always asked myself as a non-combatant is why do I give a crap to participate in an org to begin with? I may be a of a city X but do I really want to spend all my time on something never get credit for? If both let me down then I'll just ignore and go back to doin my own thing cause collecting animal parts in apothecary is more interesting and profitable.

This comes from a person who generally doesn't care about politics, sucking up to people to get anyplace or generally want to put any major efforts into anything in general. I don't really got much to really add in, beyond seeing how people treated rogues. The efforts are either to bully people into picking a fence or eject and reject them to try and force them to go another tether so people got the excuses to kill you for not staying their side then converse how much better Apples is to tangelos. People and RP's have changed over the years, some for the better and some for the worse. I really like how well thought out Phoenecia made her points. My favorite times where I felt the most excitement is during organized events to make the world a bit more fun and diverse with festivals and contests to have fun. Who kills what and why when everyone comes back from death kinda just ain't really interestin when there is no real loss beyond some gold and commodities or maybe some ylem stolen. I loved how during the last BBEG event spines was taking samples, notes, and landmarks to perserve the continents plants and animals. I really enjoyed and felt involved in how we go about doing science to build that seed bank to be able to bounce back and re-plant the world.

An for some, whelp...some suffer from protagonist syndrome ...the public news oozes with some people trying to stick out only to get nailed back down in place....over and over and over because its always the same small troupe of people trying too hard. Again this isn't pointed towards anyone specifically, its just seeing what people are encouraging others to do. I swear if I see anyone encouraging novice vampires to wear evening gowns and dark baggy clothes and talk with an inflated V on the beginning of their words gonna spank someone!

Tetchta · November 2022

The stigma associated with roguedom probably isn't going to be a fixable issue admin-side, honestly. Maybe I'm an edge case, though, but I got a ton of RP when I was cityless, more than I usually do. It was pretty awesome.

Phoenecia · November 2022

Sibatti said:
I also think reducing cities to 'meh politics' is also a gross underestimation of what a nation represents. It's entirely baffling to me why people think that a world power can be reduced to whatever players are currently leading it, that you might disagree with or take umbrage at. England survived Henry VIII, after all. Regimes change. I would very much like to tackle or talk about this idea, though it isn't fully aligned with the topic of this thread. I don't think it should be an easy or simple thing for someone to be driven out of an org, or for a city to feel like there is only "one way" to play it, or else. I've been trying to beat Duiran into rethinking this concept, to varying levels of success, but it's a work in progress.

I agree this isn't really the place to talk about it at length, but to be utterly frank, I feel you're kind of speaking from a position of privelige in the game because Sibatti as a character is one that's carried a LOT of clout in name alone and you as a player are regarded as pretty well-liked by most and have tended to be members of groups that are in power the most or are most easily able to grasp it no matter how long you're away for.

As a player, particularly playing Phoe, I've been an on and off rogue for a long-ass time, and I played for like 15 years. A lot of the people who end up as rogues are often disregarded as irrelevant bit players and get shoved off to the side. Or are people who aren't liked by groups of players.

Cities being 'meh politics' is a pretty apt description because I've lost count of how many people who've switched sides, gone rogue, or just outright quit because they as a character (or even a player) got on someone's bad side and got blacklisted for life or put so much time and effort into the game only to be given little acknowledgement in return. I do NOT blame them at all for just... Not wanting to deal with it at all.

Damonicus · November 2022

Add quest line where you become an assistant to The Research Society of Delve. Let them sell minimum wares and trade tokens.

Rijetta · November 2022

I'm in favor of rogue being less overtly punishing (i.e. some QoL stuff attached to city ylem being made global somehow, like lessons and whatnot) but I'm staunchly against them having a haven or hub, that's just a fifth city.

I don't think we should ENCOURAGE being rogue so much as we can simply make it less horribly painful to be one for those who desire it.

Xenia · November 2022

I think just ylem elements such as being able to get orbs and amulets. Maybe there's a blackmarket in delve or something that allows people to go and turn their mists there and what's available is what's available based on whoever is using the black market?

Tetchta · November 2022

Ever since I got the libram I've become a "huehuehue simply hold enter on learning lessons" jackass, otherwise I'd say they should get the learning boost, too.

Aros · November 2022

While I think it's important for the integrity of the game to maintain these lines and legitimate consequences for being a lone person in such a dangerous world (aetolia in reality would be a terrifying place for any of us to walk from Spines to Bloodloch), I see no reason why things can't be tweaked for those who want to color within those lines.

Maybe something can be done about opening up the cities. I don't just mean Bloodloch, Spines, Enorian and Duiran either - this could go for Esterport, Jaru, etcetera. I've been tossing around the notion of a guest rank, which allows you to read help files if any exist and speak to the city at large.

Guests could register with a city at, say, the refugee booths from the War of Night, or upon invitation from the Ambassador or an Aide. This person would pick up the identifier of "Guest of Spines" (for example) and be able to speak in turn.

(Spinesreach): [Guest] Didi says, "Hi."

Requirements could be tether-alignment, only one city, approval, you name it. Just gives them a better way to connect with people while remaining that "lone star", as well as means for the cities to interact with and/or punish people who take it too far.

I'd like to see someone like Didi able to converse with people much like over CT.

Alternatively, we could make city-chats proximity-based for non-citizens, as well as give access to CHELP files in a location like a library, where any non-citizen can peruse the files there. Didi comes in the Outer Gate, she can hear everything other citizens do.

I think, where I'm trying to get at with this, is that these people need to be able to communicate with the cities to allow for either the chance for them to go to a city, or at the very least the chance to participate at a higher level than they currently can.

Sibatti · November 2022

To be honest, the concept of a 'sub-citizen' (for lack of a better term) rank has crossed my mind a few times now and it's an interesting idea. Limited access, maybe privs that can be set by the city to decide upon.

Xavin · November 2022

Citizens of protectorates/associated territories could be very interesting, but I don't know if it would actually solve the issue. If you're a rogue because you don't want to be a part of one of your city options for whatever reason, joining up with a protectorate of one of them is probably not an option for similar reasons.

It would be interesting to see some middle ground place, maybe Esterport, where rogues could get some of the benefits of a city without the full buy in and functionality that the player run cities get.

Aros · November 2022

Well, through a place like Esterport there could be room to establish rogue-centered mines and farmlands that can be sold to Esterport, and then used by Esterport in negotiations with cities as they try to maintain their own trade supply.

Guest, or at least resident status in a place like Esterport as @Xavin's said, could go a long way to give function and ability to people not wanting to take part in the political landscape.

Illikaal · November 2022

My takes: I don't think being a rogue should be 'punished' but I don't think they need all the incentives you get from a city either. I look at it as if you want the good perks cities grant, then you need to pick one that you can follow the rules of. The freedom of being a rogue should also come with the freedom of getting whatever smoke comes your way. But also, and this is a legitimate question, are there any actual rogues that want to contribute to the game or world stage in a meaningful capacity? Every rogue I know of just doesn't engage in anything meaningful even if they were presented with the opportunity to do so. I could be entirely blind and deaf to it but I've never even heard of a rogue saying "Boy, I sure wish I could contribute to world events more.".

Tetchta · November 2022

Illikaal said:
But also, and this is a legitimate question, are there any actual rogues that want to contribute to the game or world stage in a meaningful capacity?

When Tet was a rogue it was for very legitimate RP reasons, and I very much intended to (and did) interact with the world at large. When it didn't make sense to be a rogue anymore, Tet wasn't one. I think it's worth pointing out that there could be a whole wave of new rogues out there that don't fit the paradigm you're describing, if the game's orgs get particularly, how to say it...limited in their tolerance for things that fall outside the box. I don't think all orgs should necessarily be super strictly limited in this way, but it's also worth pointing out that Aetolia 2022 isn't Aetolia 2018, and people's reasons for being rogue can be as multitudinal as there are stars in the sky.

The fact of the matter is, if people weren't actively punished for being outside of a city (but rather not getting the reward for being in one), you're looking at a completely different gamescape than what we have now.

Procyon · November 2022

Phoenecia said:
Since the game has apparently moved to more 1v1v1v1 kind of model, theoretically throwing in another smaller organization of players wouldn't be too difficult, particularly if it was a faction that could throw support behind whoever it wanted or pledged its loyalty to the highest bigger.

Several people have mentioned this, or things like this, and it comes down to the fact that if there is a choice to be made at a group level, leadership and politics WILL happen. If you're not in a city, you shouldn't get the group benefits of a guild; on the other hand, what benefits could we give rogues as an ALTERNATIVE to make up for what they lack? I think there are probably some creative and thematic options out there that aren't just copied from cities. I'm not referencing ylem benefits here because I think @Damonicus 's suggestion of a quest line to buy into a (perhaps more limited) supply of ylem-based wares in Delve is a great idea.

As a side note, the entire learning system is absolutely ridiculous. There is no reason you should have to wait so long to learn a batch of lessons, even at 60 per. Selling an artifact to combat something that shouldn't exist in the first place is just balls. If you like the messages for RP, then have the long draw showing them the first time you learn that specific skill, then from there on out it becomes insta-learn. Alternatively, allow an amount of lessons all the way to max to be specified. I get that learning is supposed to be slow and tedious for a sense of realism, but I don't think anyone actually feels enriched by waiting for endless messages to pass.

Tetchta · November 2022

Procyon said:
Selling an artifact to combat something that shouldn't exist in the first place is just balls.

Teeh · November 2022

I like the idea of Esterport (or even Delve) being a hub, though not protected by guards. There is already a market and it has a few other services around. The crafting annex could perhaps set up simple, limited agriculture contracts, and a Delvian research office for ylem-related things could be set up near the mayor's building or close to embassies.

Perhaps there could be some form of that suggested proximity chat channel set up only there, if not for all cities? Whenever you set foot inside Esterport, you are able to use ETELL to talk on that channel and hear what others say. I suppose that's still possible if you go into the area and use yell, but this feels a bit more elegant, and it would likely have a similar option of turning it off if you just want to be left alone.

Possibly add some form of bulletin board with short notes for offered or requested services like "Mercenary for hire." or "Seeking quest companion."

Damonicus · November 2022

Is not there a skill Provisioning or something. Perhaps that can be pushed a bit better to facilitate mining and farming. If not even a lvl 1 production facility in Esterport would be good. They need to get gold as well.

Myrnma · November 2022

There are a whole lot of good ideas here.

However, I think it all comes down to the reasons for why the rogue experience is being bettered in the first place.

If the point is to allow people to who might not feel identified with any of the present cities for whatever reason to play without feeling like they are third class players then I don't see the reason for unduly limiting the proposed scope of rogue experience improvements.

What I mean is, and I am fully aware it is an unpopular opinion, that rogue shouldn't be punished just because its rogue. Sure, it shouldn't maybe have the same exact benefits as city life, and it should definitely have cons, but it should have its own distinct benefits too, things they might even be able to do better than people in cities, because it is a choice as valid as any other for the people who take it.

Right now most suggestions center around 'worse than cities in every way' and I think that's honestly a wasted opportunity to do something halfway interesting with it.

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