The Dominion, a not very sanguine experience

24

Comments

  • Tirria said:

    [snip]

    I don't particularly want to take the bait and feed into what is honestly an attempt at a derail, but trying to "both sides" an actual problem while ignoring all the evidence on the table is a very poor look.
    NhahlarNipsy
  • I said every is guilty, but you have proven my point.
    IazamatNhahlarKurakNahuaque
  • Comparing what appears to be valid roleplay to accusations of metagaming and running organizations through discord servers just feels like comparing apples and cinderblocks to me. I don't think this is a productive way to frame this conversation, especially since there's glossing over tangible examples given in this thread. This feels like a derail to me because the only other thing I feel like I can say is just a repeat of stuff I already wrote to get us back on track.
    IazamatNipsy
  • NipsyNipsy Setting fire to Aeryx's mine
    Iazamat said:

    Tirria said:

    [snip]

    I don't particularly want to take the bait and feed into what is honestly an attempt at a derail, but trying to "both sides" an actual problem while ignoring all the evidence on the table is a very poor look.
    When problem people are jumping from an Org that stop putting up with their attempts to fracture unity and decide stand up for themselves and the health of their organization, only to get the Dominion-land fast pass for Big Rock Thunder Mountain, it really paints an ugly picture, then with logs being posted prior to any of that taking place with said person (even jokingly) discussing becoming an Emporer.

    Theres bigger issues, than trying to pass the blame.
    Iazamat tends to be incredibly fair when it comes to this kind of stuff going on and it stopping, both IC and OOC here on the forums.
    IazamatSryaenKodazaMaeve
  • I can admit I'm not aware of recent events, I've logged in a total of like 7 times in 6 months. So I'm willing to accept the responses as fair.
    NhahlarIazamatNipsyKodazaZeheia
  • Iazamat said:


    It'd be real cool if the GM of the org of the topic could comment on this rather than LOL reacting posts.


    It would be nice if anyone of the leadership of the Dom had anything to say on the matter, besides pretending nothing ever happens and then once it smooths over it's business as usual... until next time one of them does something dramatic. Seems to be pretty frequently.

    After watching a group of chars utterly disrespect Abhorash and Chakrasul on GT.... I was just completely put off by whatever it is makes them think that's okay for an org standpoint and for RP reasons. If I were either of them as a volunteer I would of been furious, but they still try. The lack of RP or thought put into those interactions were so disappointing.


    Since nobody seems to be able to constructively give us a solid reason as to why the things mentioned are happening the way they are, I guess it's safe to say that the ones responsible know they shouldn't be acting this way. If you don't want to give up your positions, at least do better in them or something. IDK. You're making one of the most interesting parts of the game really suck for a lot of people.
    NipsyIazamat
  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    Asaraii said:


    After watching a group of chars utterly disrespect Abhorash and Chakrasul on GT.... I was just completely put off by whatever it is makes them think that's okay for an org standpoint and for RP reasons. If I were either of them as a volunteer I would of been furious, but they still try. The lack of RP or thought put into those interactions were so disappointing.

    I'm confused by this comment - I don't have much of a dog in this fight, and I'll agree with the vague sense that the Dominion has veered pretty far from the path, but is there missing context here that makes this remark make sense? It isn't inherently bad RP for your character not to respect something.
    Nipsy
  • Lin said:

    Asaraii said:


    After watching a group of chars utterly disrespect Abhorash and Chakrasul on GT.... I was just completely put off by whatever it is makes them think that's okay for an org standpoint and for RP reasons. If I were either of them as a volunteer I would of been furious, but they still try. The lack of RP or thought put into those interactions were so disappointing.

    I'm confused by this comment - I don't have much of a dog in this fight, and I'll agree with the vague sense that the Dominion has veered pretty far from the path, but is there missing context here that makes this remark make sense? It isn't inherently bad RP for your character not to respect something.
    I didn't save it all, but they sort of shafted Abhorash and Chakrasul really disrespectfully over GT. It wasn't RP, it was a slam fest brought about by player emotions versus anything to do with the actual Dominion. There was no RP involved in this, nor was there consideration or RP after explaining why they just decided to tell both off more or less and then pretend that didn't just happen the next day. Literally, telling Abhorash he has no place in the Dominion and can kick rocks, and the next day talking crap to Abhorash because he won't join the battlefield against the Teradrim on behalf of the Dominion.

    I'm all for conflicting RP by all means. What's been going on in the Dominion is anything but RP, and any attempt to make it better by some of us ends up with us on the blacklist.
    LinNipsyIazamat
  • Lin said:

    Asaraii said:


    After watching a group of chars utterly disrespect Abhorash and Chakrasul on GT.... I was just completely put off by whatever it is makes them think that's okay for an org standpoint and for RP reasons. If I were either of them as a volunteer I would of been furious, but they still try. The lack of RP or thought put into those interactions were so disappointing.

    I'm confused by this comment - I don't have much of a dog in this fight, and I'll agree with the vague sense that the Dominion has veered pretty far from the path, but is there missing context here that makes this remark make sense? It isn't inherently bad RP for your character not to respect something.
    I do not want to derail the whole thread with this tangent. But I agree disrespecting Abby and Chak is not inherently bad rp. But I think when taken in the context these characters are trying to help the org right their path and instead are met with scorn and insults by a metagame cabal that has no interest in vampire rp does help highlight the issue.
    LinNipsyIazamat
  • Nhahlar said:

    Comparing what appears to be valid roleplay to accusations of metagaming and running organizations through discord servers just feels like comparing apples and cinderblocks to me. I don't think this is a productive way to frame this conversation, especially since there's glossing over tangible examples given in this thread. This feels like a derail to me because the only other thing I feel like I can say is just a repeat of stuff I already wrote to get us back on track.

    Ignoring the fact that that was all said on a discord server that includes nearly all of shadow side, but strangely not yourself, your taking of a string of quotes out of what was a long conversation is just proof positive to me that you have no interest in being anything other than a contrarian for the sake of it.
    GalileiIazamatIllikaalNhahlar
  • edited May 16
    As for everyone else's opinions of 'vampire RP', I will simply point you to your own advice on the matter when asked about Bloodloch's RP. "The group wants this, you are the odd one out, get over it or leave."
    SryaenNhahlarProcyonGalileiIazamatIllikaal
  • NipsyNipsy Setting fire to Aeryx's mine
    edited May 16
    "Nearly all of Shadow side" - Nobody here from Shadow was aware of this conversation until now.

    Also I will just reference, the above is a good relative example of what you get when trying to have conversations with them, IC.
    Nahuaque
  • I'm pretty sure the vast majority of shadow is not in that discord. It seems largely like a group of Dom players + some extras.

    NipsyIazamatNahuaque
  • I don't think the population of the server excuses anything, and if that's the answer/defense, I'm highly disappointed. That said, if you want to share the fuller context because it exonnerates the interpretation, feel free.
    SryaenIazamat
  • its literally run by Elene and Firren(?), but sure its a dominion server
    Nhahlar
  • No one said it was a dominion server, I said based off of that picture it looks like mostly a group of dom + some extras.

  • edited May 16
    It's the Graveyard Shift Discord server, where the conversation was happening. CLANHELP TCC. It was originally started for people who play during graveyard hours and got lonely/wanted people to chat with, so it's basically Fyrren's clan which he started with Dourif and subsequently, the server. The part of the conversation that was pasted came from #the-bitching-channel, and the entire conversation was something I didn't even know was happening until I woke up and saw that it ended with people leaving the server.

    I actually don't see much metagaming in this server, but it's also 29 members. However, it's the responsibility of anyone using the server for what they say, though. I won't take responsibility for that. :)

    EDIT: @Fyrren
    NhahlarNipsySryaenKurakRasaniSaidennXavinIazamatFyrren
  • edited May 16
    Alright, I'm coffeed and I feel like this thread has gone off the rails a little. I'm going to see if I can steer it back, which, I'll be honest, is going to mostly be me repeating myself a little. Unfortunately, I think some of the core issues going on have been overlooked in favor of petty personal insults or attempts to obscure the conversation using "both sides" arguments that minimize the problems with metagaming while inflating the problems with ingame roleplay. I'm going to bullet point this, however, and if you want more details I'll suggest scrolling back through the post.

    Problems with the Dominion:
    • Strong OOC ingroup/outgroup mentality
    • Major problems regarding running the guild through out-of-game mediums, including discord servers
    • Nepotism and filling leadership roles with people who are OOC friends
    • General favoritism toward people who are OOC friends
    • Ostracization of people who don't fit in with that group until they either quit play or leave the guild, entrenching the current meta group in place
    Examples of metagaming I personally have direct evidence for:
    • Screensharing in-game interactions in a voice chat to more or less group thinktank IC interactions
    • Inguilding someone and accelerating OOC friends through in-game advancement that other people had to work for (further exascerbated by leaked screenshots of said person "jokingly" asking for an Emperor position. Would be a little cringy on its own, but in the context of being advanced to full guilded status in 15 minutes just a few days later, it is kinda damning.)
    The hard-and-fast evidence is hard to get long receipts for, because if nothing else, the strong ingroup/outgroup mentality going on here does a great job to insulate leadership from infiltration. There's snippets, however, and what's more, it becomes particularly evident if you spend any time in the guild and even pay attention. Most of the leadership has been pretty lackadaisical, and people who show initiative and leadership potential are given few, if any, opportunities to actually do leadership stuff. This leads to a general lack of enthusiasm even among those who would ostensibly be gung-ho about making amazing stuff happen. Getting blacklisted is exceptionally easy, and once you are, your experience in the guild tank and your opportunities dry up. This is largely an OOC problem, and as such, is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to solve via roleplay. The slow extraction of anybody who doesn't fit the group over what appears to be years essentially makes dealing with this in any in-game way a massive headache to say the least. I actually don't think it's fixable by players, if I'm being honest.
    Zethrie said:

    As for everyone else's opinions of 'vampire RP', I will simply point you to your own advice on the matter when asked about Bloodloch's RP. "The group wants this, you are the odd one out, get over it or leave."

    I didn't want to, but I feel like I have to address this. First of all, it's pretty much a straightforward confession that the current MO of the Dominion is to drum people out of the guild. I honestly can't think of a more blatant example than this, and I'm a little surprised anybody thought it was a good idea to be this explicit about it in public.

    But what's more, this is a false equivalency to what some of the people earlier in the thread have said. Both Abhorash and Chakrasul have sent pretty strong signals that border on fourth wall breaking that the Dominion is not fitting within the expected window of guild culture and theming. Telling people who are essentially doing what they can to bring the org into this window to "love it or leave it" is missing the forest for the trees, here.

    Aetolia is a game that definitely allows for player agency, and this may seem like the Administration is stamping down on that agency, but there are acceptable ranges for exploring that agency that don't completely violate the themes and core conceits of different organizations, and the Dominion currently steps outside that box, and it's willing to use any number of shady OOC tactics it feels it can get away with to keep the guild that way. I don't like to be this overtly confrontational. This post is not fun for me. It's not like I was having a thrilling time playing in the guild as it was, and this (clearly, as seen above) has more or less sealed my IC fate in that regard. I'm alright with that. But this behavior is only going to continue unless it's brought to light. It might even continue in spite of it.

    But the basic fact of the matter is that the "odd one out" dynamic here has been completely contrived via malcious OOC methods. It's very easy to create a situation where you're the majority if you do your level best to demoralize and evict people who don't fit into your group over years.
    GalileiNipsyKurakLegynIazamatSryaenKodaza
  • edited May 16
    Edit: nevermind, honestly. I doubt this was going to go a productive direction.
    Sryaen
  • @Zethrie

    Two people in that server are permanently shrubbed. One consistently bounces back and forth between Aetolia and Haven depending on how bad they've been ostracized by the respective community they belong too at the time for being stalkerish/uncomfortably attached (and a *laundry list of things in between*), and several other are known sex pests. I would sincerely appreciate it if you never, ever, EVER, so callously and negligently compare that list of players to an entire tether again.

    Also worth noting that at the time the owner of said server removed everyone who was 'toxic'. Most of those players have been removed. You removed yourself. I'm a little confused on the tea, but you removing yourself at the same time Zima did, Zima's attachment to Sryaen, Sryaen's constant passive aggressive interactions, Zima's colossal meltdown, etc etc, all start to paint an incredibly clear picture.

    Only semi-related, but: Some of my friends from Imperian once told me about a unique artifact in Imperian. It wasn't one you bought with money or credits. It was something you happened upon by fate. The artifact is known as The Bottomless Well Of Cause. I think I've found it in Aetolia, and I should probably use it.
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    IazamatNhahlarSryaenEhtiasLinNipsyKurakZethrie
  • Bulrok said:



    Also worth noting that at the time the owner of said server removed everyone who was 'toxic'. Most of those players have been removed. You removed yourself. I'm a little confused on the tea, but you removing yourself at the same time Zima did, Zima's attachment to Sryaen, Sryaen's constant passive aggressive interactions, Zima's colossal meltdown, etc etc, all start to paint an incredibly clear picture.

    Only semi-related, but: Some of my friends from Imperian once told me about a unique artifact in Imperian. It wasn't one you bought with money or credits. It was something you happened upon by fate. The artifact is known as The Bottomless Well Of Cause. I think I've found it in Aetolia, and I should probably use it.

    I have no idea what the implication is here. But uh, my guy, I'm not part of anyone's alt army. I don't particularly enjoy interacting with you because you seem to be incapable of seeing other people's viewpoints, especially if they're opposite your own. But am I gonna go out of my way to.. I don't know what this post is even implying.. make alts to vote in a Dominion election or you think I think about you outside the confines of these ridiculous forum posts or the Aetolia discord? I mean, don't flatter yourself, boo.

    My LOL reacts to this entire thread is because this is seems to accomplish nothing in the grand scheme of things. Sure, it may shine some visible light on some probably very real, very valid problems, but the manner in which it was done so (and the subsequent dogpiling by a handful of the same people) makes this whole thread seem like a circlejerk. I think if the issues really wanted to be addressed, an e-mail to Ictinus or a mass message between Icti, Callidora and any other pertinent individuals would've been the better way to handle it.


    Tell me how I'm doing!
    (Web): Mileta says, "Okay... Sry is an edgelord..."

    (Web): Dreww says, "Sryaen just wants to be the best Dhar boi and slaughter everyone."
    IazamatXavinEhtiasNipsyGalileiBulrokAeryx
  • edited May 18
    New voices in this thread are always welcome. I cannot make anybody post, unfortunately. As for whether an email would have been better, could be. It was an option I considered. I went with this one instead given how the Teradrim thread appeared to have a marked impact on the course of the Teradrim guild when it came to dealing with metagaming. I'm not sure handling that in private is necessarily the best way to handle this sort of thing when it impacts a large group of people. Community transparency is, to me, a pretty vital thing to keeping communities healthy.

    Not really worth debating, since it would require going back in time to change anything anyway, a skill I have yet to master.
    SryaenIazamatAlela
  • edited May 18
    Nhahlar said:

    New voices in this thread are always welcome. I cannot make anybody post, unfortunately. As for whether an email would have been better, could be. It was an option I considered. I went with this one instead given how the Teradrim thread appeared to have a marked impact on the course of the Teradrim guild when it came to dealing with metagaming. I'm not sure handling that in private is necessarily the best way to handle this sort of thing when it impacts a large group of people. Community transparency is, to me, a pretty vital thing to keeping communities healthy.

    Not really worth debating, since it would require going back in time to change anything anyway, a skill I have yet to master.

    Fair enough. I can agree with that sentiment. However, the manner in which it was presented here came across as hyper aggressive and I can only imagine that it made players of the Dominion feel defensive. Which is fine to say that someone's done something wrong, and it could certainly warrant a solution to the problem, but honestly I think it's a bit naive to expect someone to respond to a forum post with "Yeah, you're right. I was wrong." Especially since this perceived issue seems to have been going on for four years.

    I think there's a right way to be transparent in the community and a wrong way. And with issues of metagaming and Discord Org running and harassment, this maybe warranted a private convo with the administration. But again, I am not part of the Dominion, nor have I ever been. So this is literally just me looking in through a very narrow scope.


    Tell me how I'm doing!
    (Web): Mileta says, "Okay... Sry is an edgelord..."

    (Web): Dreww says, "Sryaen just wants to be the best Dhar boi and slaughter everyone."
  • I don't agree that this was the wrong way, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. I don't think it's been all that aggressive, either, at least, from what I can tell, from my end. Confrontation is always going to be inherently uncomfortable. I don't want to get into a massive argument about tone policing, either. I just don't agree with your assessment, and I guess I'm going to leave it at that. It might avoid changing anything, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was incorrect or handled poorly. There may be no graceful way to handle this.

    I think we just have difference opinions on handling community issues. Privacy benefits certain groups more than others, usually those who want more control over how situations are perceived.

    Personally I would've loved a "You're wrong, here's why" reply of some sort, but maybe that's just me.
    IazamatNipsyPietreGalilei
  • Letting people slug out their confrontation has seemed to not work in the past, especially in regards to.. almost the exact same people involved, re: the Iosyne meeting from last year. Far be it from me to tell anyone they're wrong, but if the roles were reversed, I would not have handled it this way.

    You do you.

    I hope this gets resolved; I really truly do. But by the sounds of things, it's gonna come down to an all-or-nothing change and some people are gonna quickly find themselves yeeted out of their corner of the game.


    Tell me how I'm doing!
    (Web): Mileta says, "Okay... Sry is an edgelord..."

    (Web): Dreww says, "Sryaen just wants to be the best Dhar boi and slaughter everyone."
  • Sryaen said:

    some people are gonna quickly find themselves yeeted out of their corner of the game.

    I thought I was done, but this is really sticking in my craw. The problem, at present, and the entire point of this thread, is that this is happening already. It's just not quick, it's slow. Is that better?
    IazamatGalilei
  • These sorts of actions require public outcry to effect change. There is no way to handle a situation like this quietly. These types of behavior only flourish when the spotlight is not on them.
    NipsyPietreGalileiTeramasceAsaraii
  • I am coming at this from someone who has never really been associated much with Dominion before playing Ruvyn.

    The tension within it is very palpable. It's made finding a Sire difficult because I can tell there are sides and I am paranoid about somehow attaching to the 'wrong' one. I had to see this thread to even begin to understand.

    It makes it to where I very much do not want to invest in the character if there's going to be such constant tension. Reading this thread makes me start to doubt interactions I've had and the intent behind them. I really don't like it.
    SryaenNipsyHolbrookTeramasceGalileiNhahlarMaeve
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