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The Dominion, a not very sanguine experience
Hi! I've been debating whether or not to do a post like this, or to message admin directly and privately, and I settled on doing a forum post because this feels like something that would be better treated as a community discussion, given that I don't think the problems going on in the Dominion are widely known by the game at large, especially cross tether.
I've been playing Nhahlar for a couple months now, and have been having a blast roleplaying and (badly) PKing, but my experience within the Dominion guild has not been a fun one. The Dominion has a lot of the issues @Kurak talked about in his post several months ago regarding the Teradrim: unengaged leadership positions held by people who don't really do anything, guild matters being handled in OOC discord servers, and a rather entrenched ingroup/outgroup mentality that seems baked into the organization that discourages people who show initiative and actively excludes people who don't belong to a predestined OOC clique. One of the worst examples of metagaming I've heard about was a Dominion guild member (and leader) screen sharing their game screen on Discord while in voice chat so they could be coached through an in-character interaction.
Other concrete examples include making many known-quantity characters jump through a ton of silly hoops to get a guild rank with any degree of respect behind it (@Asaraii upon coming back to the game was treated pretty much like a newbie, @Bulrok I believe had to go through some of the same thing, and @Azarae failed two GR1 interviews before ragequitting the guild), while someone who appears to be OOC friends with them gets boosted to GR3 within 15 minutes of joining the guild:
These are the broad things I've seen just in a couple months, and it doesn't even touch on the problems with IC guild culture and the pretty shoddy progression system the guild has. These are all fixable issues, but leadership actively keeps people who don't really do anything in positions of authority and ostracizes anybody who tries to take initiative. I've basically been ignored ever since I contested a few weeks ago, and I've seen other players who have passion and drive to improve the guild wilt like lettuce in the sun over time because they can't gain any traction. The guild remains this way because they slowly drum out anybody interested in doing anything over time so that its left with this reduction of people who are good with the OOC group. The slow trickle ensures that there'll never be any real numbers to push through change using in-game systems, and it also avoids raising alarms in the Pools as it's not a mass exodus type situation.
It's very discouraging. To mirror Kurak's sentiments, this is largely an OOC problem, and I personally can't think of any solution other than to try to bring everything to light here. I've been discouraged to the point of near apathy after running a guild event meant to encourage Dominion folk to engage in the Bloodloch Slave Drive, which was met almost entirely with negativity from leadership in spite of it being wildly successful, and the only real "attaboy" I got was from my character's sire (nepotism for the win). It seems minor, but this feels like another entry in a long list of methods used to discourage and isolate people who show drive, because they are a challenge to the extant status quo, and every attempt I've made otherwise to promote ideas has been ignored across the board.
I just want the guild to be good and fun, which it isn't, and I'm at a loss of what else to do.
Edited for formatting, the mismatched bolds were driving me up the wall.
I've been playing Nhahlar for a couple months now, and have been having a blast roleplaying and (badly) PKing, but my experience within the Dominion guild has not been a fun one. The Dominion has a lot of the issues @Kurak talked about in his post several months ago regarding the Teradrim: unengaged leadership positions held by people who don't really do anything, guild matters being handled in OOC discord servers, and a rather entrenched ingroup/outgroup mentality that seems baked into the organization that discourages people who show initiative and actively excludes people who don't belong to a predestined OOC clique. One of the worst examples of metagaming I've heard about was a Dominion guild member (and leader) screen sharing their game screen on Discord while in voice chat so they could be coached through an in-character interaction.
Other concrete examples include making many known-quantity characters jump through a ton of silly hoops to get a guild rank with any degree of respect behind it (@Asaraii upon coming back to the game was treated pretty much like a newbie, @Bulrok I believe had to go through some of the same thing, and @Azarae failed two GR1 interviews before ragequitting the guild), while someone who appears to be OOC friends with them gets boosted to GR3 within 15 minutes of joining the guild:
2022/05/12 20:36:50 - Callidora inguilded Macavity.
2022/05/12 20:44:10 - Callidora appointed Macavity to the position of Gifted.
2022/05/12 20:48:13 - Callidora > I have gone through the necessary requirements for the Nightstalker and Gifted scrolls with Macavity. He has met the proper expectations and may be promoted to GR3.
2022/05/12 20:48:17 - Callidora appointed Macavity to the position of Ascendant.
2022/05/12 20:44:10 - Callidora appointed Macavity to the position of Gifted.
2022/05/12 20:48:13 - Callidora > I have gone through the necessary requirements for the Nightstalker and Gifted scrolls with Macavity. He has met the proper expectations and may be promoted to GR3.
2022/05/12 20:48:17 - Callidora appointed Macavity to the position of Ascendant.
These are the broad things I've seen just in a couple months, and it doesn't even touch on the problems with IC guild culture and the pretty shoddy progression system the guild has. These are all fixable issues, but leadership actively keeps people who don't really do anything in positions of authority and ostracizes anybody who tries to take initiative. I've basically been ignored ever since I contested a few weeks ago, and I've seen other players who have passion and drive to improve the guild wilt like lettuce in the sun over time because they can't gain any traction. The guild remains this way because they slowly drum out anybody interested in doing anything over time so that its left with this reduction of people who are good with the OOC group. The slow trickle ensures that there'll never be any real numbers to push through change using in-game systems, and it also avoids raising alarms in the Pools as it's not a mass exodus type situation.
It's very discouraging. To mirror Kurak's sentiments, this is largely an OOC problem, and I personally can't think of any solution other than to try to bring everything to light here. I've been discouraged to the point of near apathy after running a guild event meant to encourage Dominion folk to engage in the Bloodloch Slave Drive, which was met almost entirely with negativity from leadership in spite of it being wildly successful, and the only real "attaboy" I got was from my character's sire (nepotism for the win). It seems minor, but this feels like another entry in a long list of methods used to discourage and isolate people who show drive, because they are a challenge to the extant status quo, and every attempt I've made otherwise to promote ideas has been ignored across the board.
I just want the guild to be good and fun, which it isn't, and I'm at a loss of what else to do.
Edited for formatting, the mismatched bolds were driving me up the wall.
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Comments
The Dominion is basically a group of hippies, except they don't even do drugs so they're not even cool hippies. This is not part of the culture that has ever been pushed by the Admin or by the orgs the Dominion associates with (Bloodloch).
Some of the players are wildly petty on an OOC level and it bleeds into IC interaction (more flowers, hooray). I don't think they're engaging the game as a game and that they are ultimately doing more harm than good.
One of the most disheartening things about the Dominion is how the large group in control says things like, "The only people who aren't happy with the Dominion or its leadership aren't even in the Dominion." It's disheartening because it appears to be very true, but only because people still within the guild know that if they speak up they'll be black listed by the group.
That said, I'd be more than happy to let these players exist in their own corner of the game, doing as they please - everyone should be able to RP as they please - but the problem becomes that they control one of the more populous guilds in BL and that mindset permeates the organization, driving good/new players either from the organization or further into this extremely OOC mindset. It puts BL on the backfoot in PK events, which is especially detrimental to BL's current setup.
The most recent drama - which prompted a mass login of long-dormant characters for various reasons - did instigate a bit of fairly decent RP and action out of the Dominion, but that seems to have once again tapered off, with the victimhood mindset once again reasserting itself among those players. I know all of this is going to be difficult to swallow for many, but the truth is that Bulrok is right - the group that is holding this organization back isn't approaching the game as a game, it's more of a glorified chatroom where they want to be involved in politics and voice very public opinions, but they don't want the consequences that stem from doing so in a social RP game.
Alt-army swinging in to be jerks in an OOCish manner towards some of us is really unbecoming as well.
After lots of headaches, backhanding, and .....I wish I could offer more encouragement. However, it will require someone getting the power to excise the issues, and that is truthfully the hardest part of these kind of situations. The Alt-armies are the biggest issue. Even recently I would say the Teradrim had a civil election, despite Nipsy being IC ridiculous.
All the problem parties came out of the woodwork the moment an election came to fruition. Not quite to the extreme that the Dominion does/did.
But all the sudden, people who haven't had a token in anything going on with the guild throughout the past months, had a huge investment in the future of the guild.
Fortunately post election, we were able to remove one of those people with a Council vote, but sounds like they picked up the Dominion Fast Pass.
My condolences.
Oh, @Nipsy, are you talking about the one that got guildfavoured to gr3 less than 15 minutes into joining the guild? I don't even know how to start with that one, because any time I address anything in game it turns into the alt fest attacking me on a level of nastiness that OOC, would get someone punched. However as @Bulrok saw, if you try to fight someone in game for talking crazy, you get outguilded.
I tried the IG route of roleplaying the need for change and got a slew of OOC alts that logged on to literally just chew Asaraii out for -hours-. Literal HOURS. They wouldn't even try to roleplay, it was just straight insult after insult. That should absolutely not acceptable and anyone who promotes that as a game leader needs a slap on the wrist, hard. I'm not sure why this is happening.
When I played last, discord wasn't a thing. It seems the level of OOC management of this org is really just something that needs to be addressed, somehow. It's a game that requires its org leaders to like, actually try to make other people's playtime enjoyable. It seems as though the Dominion has had a long spew of OOC-run chaos going on.
I'm really not here to try to call anyone out in particular, because at the end of the day I don't want to be an asshole that makes a player feel attacked... unlike all the nobody alts that popped in to verbally abuse my character (basically me, because their intentions were OOC driven).
Just last night @Rennie logged on for the second time since I started playing again in the last month, to throw some more shade at Asaraii, for absolutely no reason for the brief alt-login she seems to do. When I responded in character she started throwing 'ranks' and names around like being inactive for god knows how long suddenly means @Rennie, who is lower ranked then Asa in everything, is allowed to talk shit but not get it talked back.
I don't know man. This is wildly disappointing.
Not that I recommend that course of action, it has made things VERY difficult and stressful for people I have been around, and thankfully for people like @Kurak @Almol and @Alela they have trudged through it and been very supportive, and then @Elene and @Whirran are never shy to be like, "Hey man, I can tell you are stressed out, go watch a movie or something."
WHICH HONESTLY, I hate needs to be a thing, but its a good thing to have...support, when you feel like you are trying to scale a mountain of metagaming OOC nonsense.
I have been thoroughly impressed with Asaraii since her return, sometimes you gotta just call people out and stir shit up to make some moves.
It is unfortunate, and disappointing to have to do that with people who are adults. Long story short, if people -are- being verbally abusive, thats no longer roleplay, thats bullshit, call them out.
As for the others, deal with it IC the best you can. The level of alt-ing in Bloodloch is astounding though, part of me doesn't want to believe its the same group of 8-10 people with a character in each Org, purely designed to start problems, but, its also very hard to believe that is not the case.
At least we know its not Caitria. (or is it.... *cue dramatic music*)
This too shall pass.
If Asa wasn't from day 1 a vamp under Ezalor, I'd of long rage quit the Dominion. I considered it a few times already, because it's just not fun. However, there's no RP reason for Asa to quit besides that the leadership black lists and consorts OOC. Let's face it - most the leaders are not involved in anything to do with the guild or leading anything. It's literally one of the most appealing aspects of Aetolia (vampires), and it's left in shambles.
Reference: Experience.
It'd be real cool if the GM of the org of the topic could comment on this rather than LOL reacting posts.
Also, not that it matters, but I'd been playing Nhahlar for months when I contested, and there was a lot of RP that went into it with my character and others that I don't feel obligated to paste here.
When I was appraised of this situation a few weeks back during the height of the Enorian v Bloodloch slavery stuff, I was told about this and the general atmosphere around the Dominion's place in BL's culture.
To me, it sounded (and in fact still sounds) like a lot of the Vampires in charge don't wanna play Vampires. There's three other city orgs they should consider joining instead. There's also several other guilds in those cities that they might be better suited for. They will be happier for it, less stressed, less put upon, etc. They will be in an org that matches what they want to be or has the energy they would be more comfortable in.
If you feel like you are constantly pushing and pulling your org to resemble something that makes it not fit in with its compatriots, maybe the problem isn't the 'fitting in', but with the image you keep trying to shape your org into. Please take a step back and realize what you are doing and how it not only hurts your own experience, but the experience of many others around you.
EDIT: Also, a little more bluntly: it's kinda weird that Macavity was held up as a problem in the Teradrim (see: his poor attitude in the Teradrim thread), but here he is given full honors in the Dominion. I don't see this ending well.
As an org leader, when two other orgs, the city council, the cities divine and members of your guild are saying there is an issue it is time to take a step back and reflect.
Also, like when one of the most toxic problem people are jumping ship for your guild and getting GR3 in 15min....uh...O.o
- I experienced multiple instances of my OOC whinging about the state of the org on web being ferried IC and used against my character - even by the GM, intentionally or otherwise. It effectively blacklisted me in the org, making my position as House Leader that much harder.
- When I took over House D'baen, a dormant character woke up and within a few weeks, before I had even really started implementing the changes I had talked about, contested me. After losing, they made it clear IC they would be contesting me on cooldown until I gave up and quit or was replaced. I felt I had no choice but to kick them out, which I did. Given there were four other Houses for that character to play in (the Dominion wasn't a guild yet), I didn't and still don't feel terrible about this. Change deeply upsets the players in this organization, however.
- The GM's version of "Yes, and..." is to spew platitudes and ask for time to "think about it." What this actually means is a vain hope that it will be forgotten about and everyone can return to the accepted status quo. It still happens to this day to anyone that doesn't fit the Dominion's desired mold.
- After I took over House D'baen, I became micromanaged like no other House was. I couldn't even suggest a change without the GM poring over every part of it in an attempt to shut it down.
- When Iazamat had had enough (and I realized that I was being subtly metagamed out of the org), Maldoror, who was long dormant and had not been playing, was clearly requested OOC to log in and take the House over. It was clearly his purpose for logging in and he did not stick around long after getting HL. I also believe my attempt to get cured (which had not been mentioned IC) was metagamed, as the Dominion was already aware of it before it happened.
- I staved off several (meta) attempts by the organization itself to push out players I had brought in. Ultimately, though, I was unsuccessful and they abandoned ship on their own when the writing was on the wall. They can speak to their individual experiences on their own, if they like.
- During this time, there was a metaplot (false allegations of r*pe) by at least two of the Dominion members to push another player out of their leadership roles and/or the game. Though it was handled by administration and we were told never to mention it IC again, it was repeatedly brought up by people in an attempt to discredit others.
- The organization is adamant about avoiding conflict, both within and without. Iazamat had to effectively shame people IC to get them to participate in the Proxy War, and their was a general refusal to participate in an organized Blood Hunt. This continues to this day and is most visible in the recent drama.
This is just off the top of my head. I know I'm missing more examples of how this organization treats people who don't bow to the meta group. I'll add them if they come to mind, though.Edit: That receipt on its own is already yikes-inducing, but I've seen further receipts from that particular server, and while I am acutely aware that people will vent when they think they're in private, the comments are terribly divorced from reality and give me cause for concern.
But I became angry because recently people in the Dominion have been putting in a lot of effort, as was evidenced by the large amount of non-combatants who participated in the recent guild battlefield and the efforts in the hunting contest for Abhorash. as well as numerous events within the guild to help create a sense of community and give people opportunity to show off their skills.
I won't say there aren't problem elements within the guild but the extent of tarnishing everyone in the guild who are participating, contributing, and roleplaying competently with this negativity only contributes to create an 'us vs them' mentality.
It's neat that people that play characters in the Dominion are showing up to group combat more. That doesn't address the many, many, many other concerns I talked about here, like the metagaming, leadership issues, and the general ingroup/outgroup mentality that is extremely pervasive. And I think these things need talked about. I don't really feel like I need to relist everything I already posted, honestly; it's all there to read. I don't think the slight uptick in showing up to group PVP is really a good enough response to what the underlying issues are.
But really I do not think anyone is talking about ig action being the problem. It is about Dominion discord, ooc management, and ig actions being taken as attacks ooc. It is hard to deny that 4000000000 altpires came to Callidora's rescue when challenged. We all saw the CWHO explode with our own eyes.
I had at least one instance of being undermined after, again, people got themselves whipped up in a discord server and took it in game. Like this OOC discord bs is actively and intentionally targetting people to demoralize them. I feel like that should be a bigger concern than bringing all of these problems up.
I know some people might look at this 'alt voting' thing and wonder why vote weight doesn't stop it. But seeing the sheer number of people coming out of the woodwork means that it doesn't matter if they all have 1 vote weight, there are enough of them to overcome it.
If there is indeed any mass alt voter manipulation going on I would hope the admin would be aware.
Edit: I am aware that I am really speaking against the current here and I don't think I will post much more. (Plus I don't really enjoy posting on the forums.)
If anyone wishes to speak to me please send me a message in game.
The only other interaction I had with leadership regarding the event was someone undermining it when they thought I made a mistake instead of coming to me to talk about it. When I followed up via messages, they were very condescending. Only later after the fact did I learn that the whole thing was stirred up in the Dominion Discord Server and then was brought in game, which overall left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I'm not going to share the screenshots because I don't want to betray the confidence of the person who sent them to me, but you can read the exchange if you really want.
Ergo, my only real interactions were negativity, not encouragement. I really don't want this to devolve into a back and forth on this one specific instance, becuase its' just one example in a cornucopia that have been shared above, and if you're going to get hung up over this one thing, feel free to discard it. I think my posts otherwise paint a picture on their own and don't need my personal grievance.
Sorry you are dealing with this @Nhahlar , I am sure Nipsy hasn't contributed well to the stress of the IC environment. It is a very stressful situation to be in, and the unfortunate part is the, fairweather population horde that the Dominion possesses. I don't want to bash on the entirety of the Dominion, because I know there are some good people there, @Asaraii, @Nhahlar @Yettave @Dourif and even @Vorlus have all demonstrated a level of professionalism IC, and honestly have a bit of Nipsy's respect and mine as well.
I have experienced the condescending nature, or better yet, being put on ignore because you dont agree with them, I cannot imagine what the maturity level is internally, though looking at the log, I see one of the biggest problem characters I have experienced having a disgusting attitude, and honestly, I don't feel as bad for having Nipsy behead her at this point.
I wish I had a solution that I could help with, that is similar to how @Kurak and I got through things in the Teradrim, unfortunately the population is working against you in your situation, and I was fortunate enough that Fyrren willingly supported me to become Imperator. I didn't have deal with the stubbornness and stuff that you have. I believe Kurak said earlier in the thread or maybe it was Iazamat, that there are three other cities with orgs that might fit some of the problem characters better, and honestly, that is 100 percent the truth, and I hope that it is realized sooner than later and that the health of the org can be renewed.
One day I will learn how!
I joined the dominion because while not being in the dominion there was an endless wave of "f- the dominion gah so terrible" and there was much trash talk going on at the time about Callidora. So I joined the dominion to get a front row seat.
Shortly after joining some ancient members were quick to try and fill me in on how x person did the dominion wrong and x person did the dominion wrong and my response was, it's time to move on. stop beating that drum. I found the guild to be mostly silent reaching out to guild members resulted in silence in return, ever silent. So I started working became the leader of one of the paths within the guild, that no one engaged in. which was sad to me that it would go like that but alas can't force people to take part in advancement.
I found some who were hyper fixated on ayukazi, and rhyot as if they were big bads, at first I was looking at them as if they were just creating this idea that they were victims... then Tetchta started slaughtering Dominion loyal mobs because having slaves bad? I think? Slaves get freed then Rijetta starts up having a go at Dominion members because.. it was treason to release the slaves and tetchta was all to happy to jump aboard that train. which made me think okay maybe the Dominion is getting an unfair shake here.
I've seen in loch that anyone who says "hey I think you are mistaken" is met with death threats or outright attacked and killed because it's fun for the person doing it, then on other side of the coin I hear complaints that the members of the dominion are isolating themselves and don't take part in loch on a wider scale. Why bother? When might makes right and if you say yeah that's not right and end up dead? it's unfun and not worth the hassle of trying to get to the bottom of it.
BL is a dumpster fire of OOC hate on both sides that have lead to IG behavior on both sides of the fence. posts like this like to paint it as a one way street but it is not. lets stop pretending it is. because of behavior by both groups I have stopped logging in and I really don't intend to return. BOTH sides lack the ability to police the bad behaviors of their "friends". Also screen shots of people venting in moments of anger or frustration, I'm sure that everyone in a moment of anger has said something not so nice just to vent. because lets be honest when someone does something that costs you hours of progress it pisses you off. "it's just a game" yes that true but when someone for the lol's costs you hours of your life to get back the xp ect... it's unfun for the person on the receiving end. then taking someone venting and being like -see omg meta rah rah- I've vented on disco when someone has me tilted.
I went out asking people in the beginning what their issue with the dominion was and most of the responses I got were honest or so I believe. That people in the dominion are more concerned with their titles, and holding on to what little status they have rather than rock the boat to build the guild into something useful to bloodloch. People expressed that having a guild of people who never bother to engage in things of interest to the city was a problem. I agree it is a problem.
During my time as a sec in the dominion I consistently tried to interact with as many people as I could, only to get silence in return. or outright accused of being a yes person for callidora. she and I often disagreed on a lot of things.
the one truth I've learned about people in my travels, is that they are selfish, vile and no matter the community one group says they are the bads and the other group shout nuh uh they are. and everything gets a little bit worse. Everyone is guilty of something, everyone is a villain in someone's story.
p.s I don't hold a grudge against Rijetta, or Tetchta they have their reasons for their actions while I'm not entirely sure the extent of those reasons I'd like think that they aren't just into abusing others for amusement. they still have my respect.
**I expect people to outright flame me for this post. I expect passive aggressive responses. I also expect people to -call me out- for things I might have said in the past on disco when I was not at my best out of being frustrated that's okay, I'll own it.**