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Torc + Class Interaction

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  • edited December 2021
    The point at which you are reliably pulling off kills fast enough that Gods are telling you to cool it in the finals of what is supposed to be a competition, a reasonable discussion needs to be had about the efficacy of your strategy. Any sub 10s kill against someone of equal caliber, as was the case during the duel, should either be available regardless of class, or not available at all. At 4s things are just ridiculous, that is 2 actual balances and a kill shot, there is no reasonable discussion to be had here, something needs to change.
    NaosEhtiasEleneAlmol
  • That's probably the most ignorant hot-take I've seen here so far - congratulations! When you have consistent, strong fighters lasting five, ten - sometimes twenty minutes against this player, anyone dying sub ten to twenty seconds is nothing more than REALLY poor curing priorities or an unfortunate bug in their system.
    Zethrie
  • edited December 2021
    You're also crazy if you think I could kill someone who even has their curing completely paused in four seconds. As I said, archivist cannot physically deliver 6 affs in four seconds from 0. It's not possible. Keroc's announcement came after we started fighting. It was definitely not a sub-10 second kill, start to finish. Though it was fast, yes. I'd guess it was around 25-30 seconds.

    And it is not "reliably" that fast. I fought Almol earlier in the same tournament for a much longer period of time. 

    To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind slight nerfs to one aspect of archivist. I think the speed at which I can kill with growth, combined with its repeatability, might be OP. It's easy to stop by going defensive, but since I can do it over and over it allows me to force someone on the defensive or die very frequently. It's arguably combatable in the way speed locks are combatable, as a class cure would wholly avoid it, but if anything were too good, it would be that.

    This, however, would not be impacted by changes to torc at all.

    A cool down on growth usage so it's more limited, like monk blackout, for example, would be the easiest fix. There are others, like increasing the energy cost of growth by 1 or not allowing triple stimulant on one attack, but none of those center on torc.

    I think people dying to lemniscate/matrix is more of a curing issue, though. The only problem I could agree with re: torc is the fact that unartied archivist doesn't get the same benefit. 
  • This isn't a hot take, its what happened. Curing prios or bug would be a reasonable excuse for anyone else that lost the fights in the duel, but the finals themselves were between the winners of all the previous rounds before that, thus making your argument hold water like a mesh bucket. Dying sub 20s would be one thing, but we are talking about dying in sub 5s, there are no other classes with instant kills that proc that fast, and none of the classes are designed to do that in the slightest. Circumventing the foundations on with a class is built should not only be impossible, but shouldn't remotely be possible with a 700cr artifact.

    What is ignorant is sitting here telling top tier combatants that their curing prios suck or there are bugs in their systems, but only against Archivist, and only if that archivist has torc. Then and only then do they have scrub level prios and bugs in their systems.
    KidosEhtiasNaos
  • See above. I can assure you that it was not even a sub 20 sec kill.
    Zethrie
  • My timestamps at the time say otherwise, but I'll happily rest assured since you said it. Bottom line, the torc circumvents class mechanics and needs a rework at a minimum, removal preferred.
  • edited December 2021
    If you're actually claiming someone died sub 5s against Archivist you're either taking the piss or horrifically misinformed. Maybe you should post your timestamps? Might help to clear it up.

    Edit: Especially since the guy that faced off with her in the finals confirmed it was over 25 seconds long.
  • Remove crown also.

    ReaveIesidIllikaalEakuElene
  • edited December 2021
    Calling @Almol into this dog fight. We should hear from the guy itself, eh?

    This is why I want logs. Sniff.
  • Honestly, while I wouldn’t mind hearing Almol’s opinion on it all, nothing is going to change the fact that trying to push OBVIOUS misinformation and blowing facts way out of proportion to get something nerfed is the definition of trashy in my book. 
    Nipsy
  • @Bulrok isn't here so I'll do it.


    @Zethrie post the logs.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    RhineNaosBulrokNipsy
  • I'll give my two cents since I am one of the few Archivists who DO fight without a Torc and do so fairly well.

    An Archivist gets one energy every 15 (12 w/ artie) seconds, and at most, 4 energy (although it is much more likely to be three as you'll want ameliorate up at all times in any 1v1 battle).

    Stimulant/Adrenaline costs 1 energy. Flare costs 1 energy. Growth costs 1 energy. Many other interesting abilities (like ethereal or preserve) costs more than one energy, but again, we're working on a 3 energy limit.

    Growth could be 'spammed' perhaps to a degree, but at some point the Archivist will run out of energy, meaning that they will have to wait for it to regenerate if they want to use flare or growth again. A good cure priority will clear the physical affs that could cause growth to work, so if you want it guaranteed, you need to spend two energy (one on growth, one on flare).

    Further, flare is tricky as it flares the next 'tick' of mutagen, meaning if the next tick is an aff they already have (say you're at 1/3 or 2/3) you have to wait for the 9-second cycle to tick over to the next aff in the trio before you flare if you want to seal the 3/3 phys affs.

    Archivist is, at its core, a class of timing. You're watching matrix timing, afterimages timing, growth timing, mutagen timing, energy recovery timing. Even some of our support skills are timing based - most noticeably syncopate, which is one of our big pushes to slow down curing since we do not have, by default, access to anything other than impairment so cannot lock or turn off any other cure methods.

    On-demand paresis helps to basically 'fill the gap' when we're twiddling our thumbs waiting for timing to happen. The mentals can be devastating, sure, but again - we can't really apply anorexia, slickness, impatience, or anything to truly slow down curing, apart from impairment and tracking random cure methods for a syncopate push with high mentals. With good curing (and/or the right class) getting the required physicals are nearly impossible - looking at you Soul purge.

    I definitely have looked at ways to make mutagens more interesting, though, and I think there is definitely room for the class to expand and not necessarily have a better 'aff' rate, but tighter in getting the affs we need, as right now Archivist is a lot of "dump mentals and then try to push for your 3 phys". Growth is intended as a finisher, but the lockout of physicals tend to mean at some point someone can just start spamming shield, especially with Growth's very obvious telegraph.

    So I don't like that Archivist feels its best with Torc and I think we need to tweak things to not see Torc as basically necessary as the class. I'll echo what @Sheryni said and remind that without matrix/lemniscate rolling together, we're sitting at one hidden aff every 2-ish seconds apart from madness procs, and then trying to get patterns to stay onboard for the train to actually leave the station. Before then, a quick diagnosis undoes any momentum we had before, if aff prediction hasn't already.

    TL;DR - Archivist is strong, but in a precarious spot in its strength above a certain spot. It needs some tweaks, but Torc's existence hinders those tweaks in many meaningful ways.
    EakuEleneLegynValorieKidosReaveRihrinBenedictoSeurimas
  • Post logs or gtfo
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    NipsyElene
  • edited December 2021
    Taking into consideration eq crown + eq enhancement: 

    Bioessence Infection: 4.00s bal
    Bioessence Growth: 3.00s bal (Windup of 4s to actually afflict)
    Bioessence Flare: 1.75s bal

    Numerology Madness: 2.75s eq

    Geometrics Lemniscate: 3.44s eq
    Geometrics Matrix: 2.75s eq
    Geometrics Patterns: 1.72s eq
    Geometrics Shape: 1.98s eq per aff

    It's literally impossible to kill someone in sub 10s. Unravel requires 3 physical affs and 3 mental affs. It's just not possible, unless the target turned off their curing.
    Saidenn
  • Elene said:
    Calling @Almol into this dog fight. We should hear from the guy itself, eh?

    This is why I want logs. Sniff.
    I do not want to sling mud with y'all. 

    I've never had the trouble from another Archivist I have from Sheryni. I don't think that's indicative of the class (or class/arti combo) being overpowered, I just think Sheryni is really good.

    EleneRihrin
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    Perhaps we could have another Torc.

    The Torc of Antitorc, or the Torc of Torcitude.

    2k credits to nullify the effects of Torc of Telepathy. 8^)
    ValorieEakuIesidKalenaIllikaalSaltzRhine
  • AeryxAeryx Docking Nipsy's pay
    edited December 2021
    Eliadon said:
    Perhaps we could have another Torc. The Torc of Antitorc, or the Torc of Torcitude. 2k credits to nullify the effects of Torc of Telepathy. 8^)
    With the way things go in IRE it would more likely be 2k credits to have a percentage chance to nullify the effects of Torc of Telepathy.
    Childhood's over the moment you know you're gonna die.
  • It should be called the Rudder of Telepathy, everyone knows you apply rudder to counter torque.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    IesidLinNipsy
  • I just want to see proof that it's op so someone post a log. Me and Sheryni timed out as limb indo vs her Archivist. I'm sure she's adjusted since then but she was deleting people in the same ~30s time period when we fought.

    So post a (full) log. We can all then see the blatant op or we can all collectively point out offensive or curing mistakes and we'll put some minds at ease.


    Post logs kthx.
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
  • I don't have the log of this fight (which was very long) but I have this, which I had shared with someone (tail end of the fight before this thread was started - which I almost lost) and it is funny, so here:

    https://ada-young.com/pastebin/2t_bF49U

    BulrokAlmol
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    edited December 2021
    I feel like the point of this thread has been lost. This wasn't intended to be a conversation on how OP Archivist is (as the conversation now seems to have turned) but a reasonable and sensible discussion on torc and it's multi-class usage (Templar and Wayfarer have also been mentioned.) I think @Saidenn made a very eloquent point about where Archivist currently sits in relation to it's skills vs torc.

    I would argue that Wayfarer in particular is the class most improved/impacted by torc and the difference between fighting someone like Lim (who doesn't really use torc) compared to Valeria (who now has a torc) is significant. Being able to essentially maintain paresis at all times in an unavoidable manner is incredibly potent for a venom class that relies on softlock. Certainly @Almol will remember numerous fights with me across his Teradrim and Carnifex whilst I ran Torcfarer.

    I think it's also been mentioned that for the Templar/Revenant skills - rend + torc paresis is faster than base dsk speeds.


    image
    ValorieSaltz
  • If you do the math on torcfarer, the aff rate is only very slightly faster than just spamming lob, and you can't do it for long without waste unless the person you're fighting just perma prios paresis.

    Lim tried it but doesn't prefer it because he thinks it's usually weaker. I use a hybrid where I'm usually only slaughter/torc-ing once or twice and then doing other things. 

    But if you do the math on it, it's really only a slightly faster aff rate even if they're curing paresis over other afflictions. And you can de-prio paresis to make it a worse aff rate.
    NipsyAlmolValeriaKidos
  • if you let paresis stick so you can't parry, touch tree, or shield against a wayfarer with torc who is probably also boosting shatter to muddle you i feel like that is asking for trouble, no offense intended

    kinda with bene here in that i don't really see why this thread became about whether or not sheryni is a good player (they are, obviously, i've literally watched them improve in sect over time and they just won the duel). happy for them, keep going, i believe in u.

    torc shouldn't exist as it currently does.

    if archivist needs on-demand paresis as part of its class offense to succeed, don't put it behind a 700cr gate, just adjust how they currently give paresis to match.

    if templar is not supposed to be able to fight effectively with one broken arm, don't let them circumvent that with credits. if they are supposed to be able to fight alright with one broken arm (like every other knight class), it should not be gated behind 700cr.

    wayfarer's axe throwing balance is gated by axe return speed. don't let them circumvent this with a 2s eq cost aff for 700cr.

    if any of these three classes start to use torc by default, it becomes impossible to discuss the class balance without discussing torc, so just make it part of the classes' balance without costing credits. or get rid of it completely; i really don't care which, it's bad arti design as-is for it to be so useful for three different classes' offenses.
    Valorie
  • Sheryni said:

    But if you do the math on it, it's really only a slightly faster aff rate even if they're curing paresis over other afflictions. And you can de-prio paresis to make it a worse aff rate.

    Re: Wayfarer aff rates, I fail to see how placing a lower priority on paresis makes it a worse aff rate. This is an aff that will block both tree and parry, and is usually used in conjunction with Shatter which is giving muddled and blocking your focus as well. I can understand the argument if the aff were weariness or something else that you could sit with, still blocking something like asthma - but paresis halts curing systems in a big way. I have fought with Lim a -lot- and yes, he makes little to no use of Torc - my losses can be chocked up to just bad curing, or bad matchup in general (Zealot v Affs).

    What baffles me is this insistence that the addition of a possible aff delivery while waiting on axes to return -isn't- a blatant increase in aff rate.

    I think folks need to stop looking at the sheer number of affs/second and look at WHAT the affs are. That's the more important subject here.

    Re: Torchivist, I've only dealt with Dourif in that regard and he uses it very sparingly as well (within 1 or 2 balances of an Unravel). My losses to him are, again, me sitting in room with low curing prios on physical affs and letting lemniscate roll.

    Re: Torcplar, well. I was almost solely responsible for getting it nerfed a few years back. 3 affs on a 2s balance was just too much, so they altered how Rend functioned. Nowadays, it seems like a false equivalent to DSK - with only one of your affs being controllable, albeit on a faster balance, it won't equate to the benefit of having a full DSK IMO. It simply allows them to not be completely halted by a single limb break. Unsure if it still needs further addressing in that regard.

    (Web): Ictinus says, "You people are terrible."
  • I don't know why wayfarer is designed the way it is but it seems to me that it's designed to be able to use something after slaughter. Why else is the balance way faster than axe return to begin with? You wouldn't need to delete torc to change that. You could simply increase the balance on slaughter.

    I don't think leaving paresis on you for brief moments is bad, though. It objectively decreases the aff rate because they don't have an alternative aff to give with torc in that window, other than a very premature and unnecessary stupidity.

    No one would use slaughter without torc (or dagger, etc, in the gap). They would use the other attacks, so you're not comparing slaughter/torc to slaughter on its own. You're comparing it to lob or assault. Lob is like 1 aff every 1.1 seconds or something (just venoms, not counting fury). I don't know slaughter/torc off the top of my head but it's something like 3 affs in maybe 3.2 seconds, and one of those affs must always be paresis or stupidity.

    If you already have paresis just one time when they just slaughtered you and would be torcing you, it'd have been better to use lob, and once you start using lob, your axe returns become mismatched and it's no longer optimal to go back to slaughtering because you'd have to wait on an axe return and the gain isn't very high.

    And umm. @Kidos you just told me I'm wrong to stress that one of torc-farer's affs has to be paresis when it wouldn't have to with lob and then made the exact same argument as to why para/rend might be fine (slightly faster but has to include para). Do you realize this?
  • I've always been of the opinion that torc needs to go because its only use case is to expand a class beyond what it can 'typically' do. A crown (ugh) makes a class do x, but faster. +Int makes it do x, but harder. Torc expands the base functionality, and that is always going to have bizarre use cases, because classes are not designed around having a Torc. Templar being stopped by a broken arm (balanced or not) is by design. Break an arm, you limit them to just x choices. Archivist has to spend energy for a phys aff, as part of the kit. Wayfarer can use slaughter to finish a lock since it has an opportunity cost just like the rest. Anything that works around that, especially with the price tag of Torc, is unhealthy.

    Weaponry can work around some of these things (just throw your rapier), but you can 1 access weaponry much easier and 2 balance around that (since dodge ranged, clumsiness, rebounding, etc. exist).

    I do maintain that "Archi killed a guy really fast" is a terrible standard, because I've blown people up with it plenty, years ago, and I don't have a Torc. It's atypical in how it plays, which isn't a bad thing- just a different style. If you cure wrong vs an Archivist, you're going to explode. Curing 'wrong' vs DSL clone #12 is also going to get you locked, but we've been fighting that so long it just feels intuitive to cure correctly.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    EakuKidosBenedictoAlmolIesidValorieIllikaal
  • Sheryni said:


    And umm. @Kidos you just told me I'm wrong to stress that one of torc-farer's affs has to be paresis when it wouldn't have to with lob and then made the exact same argument as to why para/rend might be fine (slightly faster but has to include para). Do you realize this?

    I don't believe I ever said you were wrong, now you're just putting words in my mouth. I said I am failing to understand the argument, and I still am, as I have yet to be given any substantial support for it. My claim was that a less hindering aff would make more sense in regards to the "affrate" argument, but since it is paresis, it makes little sense to me. I also said people are obsessing over numbers here in the form of affs/second, without a regard for the bigger picture and the surrounding restrictions.

    I just thought I would address it because it is one of the three instances of Torc used brought up in this thread.

    Allow me to elaborate:

    Wayfarer, when using Torc (primarily Slaughter) is capable of delivering a fury affliction (or two), two venom afflictions, and then the Torc affliction.

    Templar, when using Torc (only with Rend) is capable of delivering rend or a venom/empowerment, and then the Torc affliction.

    I haven't experience Torc/Rend since I abused it forever ago, so I've no true opinion on the matter there. As I stated, I am unsure if adjustment is necessary in that regard. What I have experienced is the overwhelming load that is losing your ability to focus, touch tree, and have 4 affs delivered within such a short span of time.

    Seems like two different leagues.

    In a similar vein, you just said brief moments for paresis, whereas the pill balance is brief moments. You have 4 seconds to cure paresis, so you might be able to squeeze in 1 or MAYBE 2 affs before curing paresis (which I do, I elevate after 3 seconds), but the 3 seconds of no tree combined with 5 seconds of no focus just guts my curing.

    Again, this is my perspective as I am still trying to relearn and adjust my priorities after being away for so long. Since I was mentioned by name here, though, and I've had to deal with Torc'd and Torcless of both Archi and Wayfarer, I figured I would weigh in.

    Again again, I am not saying anyone is WRONG HERE, I am just pointing out my observations and would also like to join the logs bandwagon because there are two completely different stories going on in this thread regarding torc's value.

    (Web): Ictinus says, "You people are terrible."
  • edited December 2021
    It just sounds like you're arguing non-torc wayfarer is OP since, without torc, it can still do a fury, para, and two other venoms in close to the same time frame (less than .2 secs slower). That less than .2 seconds seems like a similar level of advantage as the rend/torc, from how it sounds.

    I was just trying to clarify that that's the kind of advantage we're talking. Some people seem to be making it out to be bigger. 

    EDIT: I just went wayfarer to get exact numbers for the sake of accuracy.

    slaughter + mind para is 3 affs in 3.37 seconds
    axe lob is actually 3 affs in 3.16 seconds at the start of a fight, because you start with both axe bals available.

    After you're behind on axe return, though, it's 3 venoms in 3.525 seconds

    So, slaughter + mind para gives 3 affs .155 seconds faster

    This is with eq crown, so if you didn't also have eq crown it'd only be .015 seconds faster to use slaughter/torc.

    To me, this is not substantial enough to bother nerfing.

  • I might be alone here but I would 100% argue non-torc wayfarer is OP.

    KidosCzciennIllikaal
  • I was taught that editing is for cowards, but I remembered this thread is about torc.

    I've always been of the opinion that torc needs to go because its only use case is to expand a class beyond what it can 'typically' do

    #deleteTorc


    IesidBulrokValorieBenedictoKidosCzciennEakuIllikaalRhine
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