Torc + Class Interaction

Benedicto

A discussion I've been hearing about more and more frequently recently in relation to combat is the artifact 'Torc of Telepathy' and its relationship to certain classes - most notably Wayfarer and Archivist. I have experienced it before but have noticed how much prevalent it now seems to be with multiple individuals utilizing this artifact alongside their class skills.

Running on a 2 second base equilibrium usage, torc bestows the wearer the ability to use the MIND PARALYSE or the MIND STUPIDITY commands from telepathy. It can be used as long as the wearer has eq regardless of their status (prone/broken arms/paralysed/etc).

Due to the way that balances on Wayfarer work, it is possible to regain balance back before you regain axe balance. In the window where you have balance back but are waiting to throw again, torc is a useful tool to then regive paresis (as this is most usually the first affliction in anyone's curing order). Once a Wayfarer is looking to secure a lock, the torcs secondary affliction - stupidity - can be used i.e. (lob slickness/lob anorexia/mind stupidity). This allows 'Torcfarer' to machine gun out affs at a decently higher rate than your average Wayfarer.

Then there is Archivist (or Torchivist) - arguably the most serious of the two cases. Now, to my understanding this is a class that isn't supposed to have access to on-demand physical afflictions. Mutagens and/or a specific set of conditions on your target are what give the Archivist access to the 3x physical afflictions they need to go along with the 3x mentals. With access to torc, they can consistently churn out a physical affliction using mind paralyse to achieve something that they'd have to work towards normally. This is done in conjunction whilst using mutagen growth (a skill that after a short delay, allows a mutagen to afflict the target with all of its effects) and madness to suddenly overwhelm a target. Essentially circumnavigating the manner in which the class is intended to work.

Both of the above classes have an incredibly high affliction rate and from conversations I've had in the past, my understanding is that they are already intended to be 'glass cannons' - a high output rate with a relatively low amount of defensive/curing skills. However, their ability to use torc to further supplement their affliction output pushes them from being in balance with other classes into nigh unmanageable rates of affliction output - particularly in the case of Archivist where the use of torc essentially means that an individual doesn't have to learn the nuances of the class in order to succeed necessarily.

I'd like to know whether people agree with this or what their thoughts are on the subject - hence the discussion. I have a torc myself and have used it as Wayfarer but I would be more than happy to see it's eq usage upped considerably (doubled to my mind) in order for it to remain the gimmick item for which it was originally intended - i.e. stopping instakills and the like.

Czcienn

Delete and full refund tbh.

Eaku

Also worth noting is templar's interaction with torc, which allows you to use rend and then torc for what is technically faster than standard DSK before waterflow, and is the only way to maintain their affrate with one broken arm (unless this has been changed, but I've seen it used pretty recently).

If the class is supposed to be as significantly hindered as it is by one broken arm, torc shouldn't get around that. If it's not supposed to be so hindered by one broken arm, the solution should not be a 700cr artifact.

Elene

I can only speak about Archivist. Getting three physicals to stick is a tall order, especially on any decent fighter with good curing. It's not impossible because I've killed with it before, but it takes a lot of momentum which can easily be reset when someone walks out of the room - something that we cannot entirely prevent at all, or spam shield.

Bio flare expends one bio energy to afflict the next physical affliction from your mutagen from your list. It doesn't intelligently pick what physical affliction your opponent doesn't have from the mutagen to give it. Eg:

Test           Chronic    Narcotic Somnolent Degenerative        Yes

So if my opponent already has impairment and the next affliction in your order of effects is impairment and you use bio flare, you'll be wasting one energy for no additional physical affliction. 
 
In order for bio growth to afflict all three physical afflictions, your opponent has to possess one affliction from your mutagen when it fires after a short windup. Paresis from torc doesn't trigger this.

I have seen how Archivists use torc in their route. I don't think it's a crutch or that it will mean individuals don't need to learn the nuances of the class to succeed in it. I've only ever seen torc used and personally used it as a finisher, where I have the requisite mental afflictions and all I need is one more physical affliction to unravel. However, I can understand how overwhelming how it can be when it's paired with our ability to expend bio energy to reduce the time taken to recover for torc balance recovery.

Benedicto

Elene said:

I can only speak about Archivist. Getting three physicals to stick is a tall order, especially on any decent fighter with good curing. It's not impossible because I've killed with it before, but it takes a lot of momentum which can easily be reset when someone walks out of the room - something that we cannot entirely prevent at all, or spam shield.

If it's a tall order then this is an issue with the fundamental way the class works - not something that should only become feasible by investing in a 700cr artifact to give you skills from another class.

Sheryni

Given the timing of this post, it seems very targeted at me. I think the strength of torc is actually overstated (Lim, for example, prefers non-torc wayfarer to wayfarer, and curare jabs can largely take its place for archivist).

But I find the OP slightly offensive. I would challenge anyone who thinks my archivist is not "nuanced" to try the class themselves, as I spent a lot of time learning to line everything up well enough to kill with it consistently and use just about every mechanic available to archivist in the process.

That is all. Carry on.

Benedicto

Sheryni said:

Given the timing of this post, it seems very targeted at me. I think the strength of torc is actually overstated (Lim, for example, prefers non-torc wayfarer to wayfarer, and curare jabs can largely take its place for archivist).

But I find the OP slightly offensive. I would challenge anyone who thinks my archivist is not "nuanced" to try the class themselves, as I spent a lot of time learning to line everything up well enough to kill with it consistently and use just about every mechanic available to archivist in the process.

That is all. Carry on.

The post certainly wasn't directed at you - hence why no specific names were mentioned. Torc in conjunction with Archivist has been used for a long time but as Elene said, it was usually used towards the end of a fight to get the closing final physical affliction. There are plenty of people out there who use/have used it. And I myself have used torc in combination with Wayfarer and the difference between with and without for both classes is significant.

I've certainly fought some extremely successful Archivists who didn't need torc in order to seal the deal and what my recent fight with you showed me was how obnoxious torc in combination with Archivist could really be if it's leaned upon. It wasn't intended to offend, but to highlight that by using torc heavily, an Archivist can certainly circumvent a good amount of the additional requirements an Archivist might usually need to go through in order to obtain their 3 physical afflictions.

Elene

I've tried my best to optimize a lot of my timings for Archivist as well. (There's a lot of timers and counting involved.) I don't think you can get very far with setting up any kill pressure for unravel if you don't know how to use your skills.

Also I said a tall order against a decent fighter with good curing. If you're diagnosing at the right moments, shielding before bio growth hits, running when matrix/lemniscate sticks enough for patterns and throws you afflictions, I can hardly kill you. This is par for the course with almost every class though.

What I would like is more intelligent affliction with bio flare, amongst other suggestions, and also more routes to kill than just unravel or damage. And we can consider limits on torc so bio stimulant can't reduce torc balance recovery timing.

Eaku

Benedicto said:

Elene said:

I can only speak about Archivist. Getting three physicals to stick is a tall order, especially on any decent fighter with good curing. It's not impossible because I've killed with it before, but it takes a lot of momentum which can easily be reset when someone walks out of the room - something that we cannot entirely prevent at all, or spam shield.

If it's a tall order then this is an issue with the fundamental way the class works - not something that should only become feasible by investing in a 700cr artifact to give you skills from another class.

To be perfectly clear, this is my main point.

Archivist should be able to stand on its own without torc. It's already a strong class with an interesting playstyle, it shouldn't need to spend 700cr for an extra physical aff to proc its instakill. Add on-demand paresis to the class and nuke torc's use for it if Archivist is supposed to have on-demand paresis, or just nuke torc if the class isn't supposed to have easy access to the extra physical aff and buff the class if it needs help afterwards.

Templar's position is unclear here, but assuming that the class is supposed to be stopped by having one broken arm... nuke torc's interaction with the class. You shouldn't need to spend 700cr to fix one of your class's main weaknesses (and you shouldn't be able to spend 700cr to counteract the same weakness if it's intentional class design).

Torcfarer I can't really comment on, but slaughter into torc use before axes return just seems silly on paper. Maybe someone with more experience with the matchup can weigh in, I haven't played wayfarer or against torcfarer in a while.

Czcienn

Honestly, my preference to just delete such artifacts aside, there are a few questions we should ask whenever we discuss artifacts and how they interact with specific classes.

1) Is X class balanced without this artifact?
2) Do we want X class to be balanced around this artifact?
3) Is X class boosted by having this artifact?

Where we go from there depends on what the answers to these questions are. I'm not the one making the decisions, but in the case of torc for any class, I really think the answer to 2) should be no, hence my call to just delete and refund.

Alela

i've literally been saying this for years. torc of telepathy is nothing but trouble. every time someone finds a way to use it with another class, it's bananas. this isn't anything to do with Sheryni - i started harping on it back when Dzekk was using it for Torcplar, which was when Battlefury Rend delivered both a venom/empowerment AND the rend aff, so it was a burst of three affs at sub-DSK time. torc+rend is still pretty strong, although much more situational, and i've yet to even touch on its interactions with other classes. this is absolutely one of my regular hobby horses, so i'm glad to see more people are finally coming around on it.

delete torc of telepathy.

Jezreth

I agree that classes should stand on their own, and that torc should be removed or be changed to be disadvantageous to use in 1v1 situations.

Elene said:

I can only speak about Archivist. Getting three physicals to stick is a tall order, especially on any decent fighter with good curing. It's not impossible because I've killed with it before, but it takes a lot of momentum which can easily be reset when someone walks out of the room - something that we cannot entirely prevent at all, or spam shield.

@Elene Appreciate the informative post. This can apply to all classes though. Winning against decent fighters *should* take effort. You shouldn't be able to kill top tier fighters almost immediately (referencing the Duel finals). All classes are susceptible to resets and need to deal with that.

Elene said:

I have seen how Archivists use torc in their route. I don't think it's a crutch or that it will mean individuals don't need to learn the nuances of the class to succeed in it. I've only ever seen torc used and personally used it as a finisher, where I have the requisite mental afflictions and all I need is one more physical affliction to unravel. However, I can understand how overwhelming how it can be when it's paired with our ability to expend bio energy to reduce the time taken to recover for torc balance recovery.

I think this is the issue though. Torc synergizes really well with the Archivist toolkit and makes it something new. The class is, in my opinion, already top tier without it, so it kind of pushes it over the edge.

Sheryni said:

Given the timing of this post, it seems very targeted at me. I think the strength of torc is actually overstated (Lim, for example, prefers non-torc wayfarer to wayfarer, and curare jabs can largely take its place for archivist).

But I find the OP slightly offensive. I would challenge anyone who thinks my archivist is not "nuanced" to try the class themselves, as I spent a lot of time learning to line everything up well enough to kill with it consistently and use just about every mechanic available to archivist in the process.

That is all. Carry on.

@Sheryni I'm guessing you were the prompt the of OP, but as Alela said, the issue has been around for forever. You just reminded us of its power.

Also, I would love to get my hands on the class. Give me archi mirror >:)

Benedicto

Sheryni said:

I think the strength of torc is actually overstated

Elene

I would like to see if instead jabbing curare would be a viable alternative to torc usage for Archivists, as what Sheryni suggested.

And while we are on artifact deleting, please can we also delete hood. No one should be able to hide from me forever with a 2000cr artie >:(

Eliadon

Elene said:

I would like to see if instead jabbing curare would be a viable alternative to torc usage for Archivists, as what Sheryni suggested.

And while we are on artifact deleting, please can we also delete hood. No one should be able to hide from me forever with a 2000cr artie >:(

can I have a refund if we do that for the hood that I only bought to find other hood people
;[

Illikaal

Actual question: Why do people that defend torc by saying "Torc can be replaced by jabbing/throwing a dagger for the same effect" use torc instead of doing what it is they mentioned? 

Saltz

Illikaal said:

Actual question: Why do people that defend torc by saying "Torc can be replaced by jabbing/throwing a dagger for the same effect" use torc instead of doing what it is they mentioned? 

I was on that board when i first started coding for the daggerfarer but then i learned torc is only half the bal cost(of the best possible dagger u can find/tailstrike relic), does not respect rebounding,can not be dodged. It is just too good to be true honestly.

Edited to add: It is not venom source, so it bypasses purity as well.

Lim

Guess I'll weigh in on this:

Yes, classes should not be balanced around artifacts. Same concept applies as with eq_crown (including the conundrums that come with refunding eq_crown).

Yes, I would like to see elusion hood deleted and refunded too.

On Archivist:
My personal view is that more needs to be done to make Archivist viable without torc. Thus far, 99% of kills has been noob-checks and improper curing on the target's part. I tried bringing this up to Keroc but some of you dumdums (jk (or am I? (:p? )) apparently have been saying Archivist is awesome/one of the best classes, etc., so I blame you guys.

Most people cry 'torchivist OP' do so a bit blindly (please forgive my bluntness!), where their deaths are because of mind paralyse being used as the final aff - which when used in this manner, has fairly decent substitutes, like jab, flare, madness+bloom. The other reason is the growth trick, which has nothing to do with mind paralyse/torc. These are not good reasons for saying that Archivist is dependent on torc/Archivist is OP with torc, etc.

Where the complaint does have some merit though, is where mind paralyse is used as a holding affliction while waiting for a mutagen tick/bloom proc. This can't be done without torc, and I don't think jabbing curare is an exact alternative because that requires rebounding to be down during the entire duration (Archivist can't strip rebounding), and jabbing takes a significantly long balance than mind paralyse (if I don't remember wrong, it does not/barely beats pill balance).

If torc is to be deleted, the impotence of Archivist (beyond noob-checks and bad curing) needs to be addressed before, not after. Please.


On Wayfarer:
I don't really want to comment too much on this because I've been fiddling with Wayfarer lately, and unreasonable people (buttheads) would dismiss anything I say as a conflict of interest/bias on my part. I also haven't had the chance to fight with many Wayfarers, so I would really love if more people picked it up to prove the point instead of saying it from the recipient's point of view without ever having appreciated the weaknesses of the class.

My take, in short, is that torcfarer is better only against shield spammers. Otherwise it's overhyped and I'd prefer the usual methods. I just got some inspiration on how to deal with shield spamming without torc, though. So I want to try that out a bit more first before coming to a position on whether Wayfarer needs something for dealing with shield spam before torc gets deleted, or if torc can just be deleted outright.


On Templar:
The key benefit of torc-rend now is against single-arm breaks. I do feel that Templar has been watered down quite a bit, so if torc is to be deleted, something should probably be done to mitigate the effect of single arm breaks on Templar. Not sure where the math lies on whether they should just get single-arm break immunity like Carnifex, or if it should just be mitigated sometimes, but right now they do feel to me like the lesser cousin of the Carnifex/Warden.

Lim

I'd echo Sheryni's sentiment btw, that it really, really sucks when people say OP about you/the class you're using. You know how some people spend hundreds of hours bashing to level 200? That's the same kind of non-stop grind of getting fights, reading and analysing logs (regardless of whether you win or lose - analyse them ALL), thinking of fixes/improvements/optimisations, and coding in the background that happens when other people are enjoying their RP, stocking shops, exploring, doing quests, etc. that you lose out on. People tend not to see the hours of struggle because you look like you're just sitting there afk. And they only notice your successes rather than the countless failures before then. This is not targeted at anyone in this thread, btw, just urging anyone reading to please understand and acknowledge the work and sacrifice that goes into it.

Czcienn

You can put in a lot of work into a class and do very well with it and imbalanced interactions with the class and artifacts can still also exist.

They're not mutually exclusive.

Lim

Czcibor said:

You can put in a lot of work into a class and do very well with it and imbalanced interactions with the class and artifacts can still also exist.

They're not mutually exclusive.

Yes, I know. Thanks.

Sheryni

My issue was moreso with the original poster posting that it was OP less than an hour after dying to me a few times, not the mere fact that I use the tactic. It seemed very targeted and kneejerk.

Of course torc is better than jabbing curare. Weapon runed weapons are better than non-weapon runed weapons. I did say curare jabs could largely replace it, not that it was not "better" than them.

If the issue is simply that people without torc cannot compete as well, I wouldn't be opposed to simply adding paralysis to the archivist kit. I don't personally believe archivist with paralysis is overpowered, though. If anything is overpowered about archivist, it is not sticking one physical every 9 full seconds by spamming paralysis. Most classes afflict much faster than that.

And my fight with Benedicto, as an example, since it prompted this thread, was quite long. He only died because he had lemniscate and matrix both running on him for a fairly long time. That is an investment that requires time to set up and rewards it (if it works) with a very high aff output. If I couldn't get a kill off that, I think the class would be underpowered.

Elene

Can I have a look at the log in question?

Church

Some believe the interaction between torc and class offenses goes too far. I say it doth not go far enough! Introducing the latest and greatest in artifact-based class improvements: torc of improved telepathy! At the low price of 1200 credits, this provides all the benefits of the regular torc of telepathy as well as allowing the owner to use MIND EPILEPSY and MIND CONFUSION.

Coming soon: torc of GREATER telepathy, granting access to MIND BLACKOUT and the CLAIRVOYANCE passive!

(delete torc please)

Lim

Church said:

Some believe the interaction between torc and class offenses goes too far. I say it doth not go far enough! Introducing the latest and greatest in artifact-based class improvements: torc of improved telepathy! At the low price of 1200 credits, this provides all the benefits of the regular torc of telepathy as well as allowing the owner to use MIND EPILEPSY and MIND CONFUSION.

Coming soon: torc of GREATER telepathy, granting access to MIND BLACKOUT and the CLAIRVOYANCE passive!

(delete torc please)

You think too small. Torc of Venomlock, anyone?

Iesid

This is one of those topics where it comes down to how many misgivings one has with the monetization model of IRE at large.

In Archivist's case, it's clear that the limiting factor of their class is the lack of 'on demand' physical afflictions. This makes me ask a few questions from a class design perspective, namely:

Is it alright for the class to 'answer' or negate that limitation at the cost of 700 credits? I don't think so, but...
If it is alright, how many other classes should get that benefit of opting out of a design limitation? It better be all of them, on a side note, but...
Once we've decided that is, is 700 credits the sweet spot? 700cr is closing in on almost another class, but also...
If ignoring that limitation is commonplace, do we need to change the design of the class to compensate for this commonplace possibility? After all, those limitations existed for a reason!

It's not that 'Archivist with paralysis is overpowered' - it's 'Archivist with on demand paralysis with no hoops they must jump through, unlike the rest of the actual kit, is overpowered'. Which, to be honest, I do agree with the premise of. If you are designing a class around the notion of 'no on demand physical afflictions', you tend to make a lot of allowances - their mental rate is better, they lack commonplace hinder, they have better defensive tools because of that lack of hinder, etc. If, after you give a class all of this and design accordingly, you place the option on the table to ignore the weakness that begat all these decisions, any player would be foolhardy to not at least consider it.

This is a rabbit hole that largely begins at 'should you be able to buy your way out of weaknesses in IRE?'

The answer is probably yes, much to our chagrin.

I'm still on team #DeleteTorc, but for selfish reasons: I don't want to buy one and I'd like the class straightened out before Spirit gets a mirror of it. I perceive that the existence of torc exerts its own gravity on Archivist class design, which makes it harder for us to examine the class by itself. Torc is inextricably linked to Archivist in discussions about the class, after all - anecdotal as it is, I've never heard torc not come up in discussions about it. I would prefer we not begin balancing the class around the existence of this artifact and I believe in equal parts that the artifact's existence will only continue to spawn these strange corner cases as clever players continue asking questions.

Sheryni

Just as a note, I wouldn't personally say archivist is balanced around having no physical afflictions on demand. I think it needs to have them on demand or it will never get to three, and does in the form of weaponry and to a lesser extent bio flare, even without torc.

I think the balancing factor is that its physical aff rate is substandard, which is still the case, even with torc. You're not going to outpace tree, renew, passive cures, and class actives by just spamming mind paralyse with a mutagen going. That is not mathematically possible. You have to use a variety of mechanics to burn through all those cures and stick three mentals in order to even get to the point where all you need is three physicals.

Then, even with torc, you're giving one physical every 1.7(?) seconds plus one more every 9 seconds from mutagen. The torc physical is stuck as paresis. If they cure the other physicals first, you aren't giving more with torc to get to 3. There is a notable weakness in physical aff rate you can take advantage of to avoid dying. I've lost to archivists a few times, myself, but never in a way that I felt I hadn't made a pretty significant error that caused my death.

The class actually has a very low mental aff rate as well, if you don't get stuck with lemniscate on you, which is conditional.

Illikaal

I guess Shamans have a very low mental aff rate too as long as you cure impatience and I don't use staticburst a lot. What did I just read.

Sheryni

I'm not sure how shaman works and don't know if you understand how archivist works, so I can't tell if you're trolling or not.

Most archivist attacks are one mental every 2ish seconds which, to me, is an extremely slow aff rate. Madness is three at once but for a heftier balance and a long CD. So if you just spammed mentals upfront, it would be a low total aff/sec rate compared to most classes.

The class mostly sticks mentals by them being hidden, not pure aff rate. You can have a much higher aff rate if you get matrix lemniscate going but that can be viably stopped by good curing. Lemniscate and matrix don't give any affs if they do stop it from working, so you expend over 10 seconds with 0 affs stuck if this happens. 

I don't think that's a problem, since the reward is high, but I do think it's a major balancing factor. It's not like archivist is throwing out an even "normal" aff rate at will, compared to other classes.

In my fight with Benedicto, I think it took me close to ten minutes to get lemniscate/matrix going. At that point, I had a high mental aff rate and was able to finish him off. I just don't see how that significantly differs from other classes. The main reason archivist seems so successful is people curing it less well than other classes. 

Illikaal

So Templars/Revenants have a 'low' affrate using only Duality. Until you use empowerments, pesilence aura, etc. This is how i'm reading your argument about 'low aff rates'. Correct me if i'm wrong but it certainly appears as if you're pointing at 1 or 2 things in the kit as if they are all that contribute to your affrate. That's like me saying, as stated above, that Shamans have a low mental affrate because I can only divulge one mental aff at a time at 1.86 seconds. But that's not all that contributes to Shamans mental affliction delivery, just like your shape attacks and madness aren't all that contribute to yours.

Sheryni

Well, no. Because templar aff rate is guaranteed. You're just throwing affs at someone on repeat. I'm not saying my aff rate is only high if I use certain abilities. Why would I not use them? I'm saying my aff rate is only high if my opponent doesn't cure certain afflictions. It's not a guaranteed aff rate and isn't in my control the way other classes are. I can't just throw 3 affs at you repeatedly. 

I can use two abilities that deliver no immediate affs and then try to stick patterns in a tight window. If it sticks, after this ten second setup I'll have a high aff rate until you end it by curing certain afflictions. If you touch tree or a passive cures patterns, etc., then I've done approximately three affs in 12 or so seconds, including my passive mutagen. It's very conditional. Most classes don't function that way so it's a little hard to compare.

Archivist afflicts in bursts if X aff is present at Y time and otherwise has subpar aff rate. As someone fighting an archivist, I'd make sure X aff wasn't present at Y time and stop the high aff rate from coming to be. I can't do that to a templar, carnifex, or syssin. It's just very unique.