Torc + Class Interaction

Kidos

Sheryni said:

It just sounds like you're arguing non-torc wayfarer is OP since, without torc, it can still do a fury, para, and two other venoms in close to the same time frame (less than .2 secs slower). That less than .2 seconds seems like a similar level of advantage as the rend/torc, from how it sounds.

I was just trying to clarify that that's the kind of advantage we're talking. Some people seem to be making it out to be bigger. 

EDIT: I just went wayfarer to get exact numbers for the sake of accuracy.

slaughter + mind para is 3 affs in 3.37 seconds

axe lob is actually 3 affs in 3.16 seconds at the start of a fight, because you start with both axe bals available.

After you're behind on axe return, though, it's 3 venoms in 3.525 seconds

So, slaughter + mind para gives 3 affs .155 seconds faster

This is with eq crown, so if you didn't also have eq crown it'd only be .015 seconds faster to use slaughter/torc.

To me, this is not substantial enough to bother nerfing.

I do want to preface this by saying that in none of this Torc debate have I been attempting to single you, or any one user, out. Each person has put in their work, and each person is a respectable 1v1er by default with or without the darn artifact.

I may have let on my opinion about even non-torc Wayfarer a bit (I do think it's strong), but let's avoid that from now on since this discussion is about Torc and its liberal use in niche scenarios.

Having the speeds to compare is a good start, and you are right. The mechanical increase in speed appears negligible on paper for both, and accounts to about the same advantage for both - by itself. The surrounding kit, however, in both of these scenarios differs greatly in my opinion. I feel as if comparing Templar's benefits to Wayfarer's benefits is moot, what with Fury being a thing and Templar's secondary aff delivery (Bladefire) being hindered immensely by having to use the Torc in the first place. Again, just my opinion.

We just fought, you and I, and you whooped me with only having slaughter/torc'd twice. That proves that I still have adjustments to make re: Wayfarer curing, and it proves that you are a more than competent enough fighter without it.

I still think Torc needs to go, as a whole, because it continually pops up with issues like this, and I do understand how it feels to be on the receiving end of the complaints regarding Torc. I abused the crap out of it years ago, leading to the Rend skill being reworked.

We as players are notoriously biased and sometimes ignorant of the sheer mechanical facts and scenarios (affrates, etc.) so a long time ago when I made a stupid little spreadsheet comparing affrates across all classes and went "LOOK HOW UNFAIR", I was properly educated on how things worked and the justification behind each one. That's when I stopped giving a crap about affs/second.

So, without playing "overpowered or not", I present my final opinion to this thread:

Torc feels like an unnecessary advantage (albeit small in some scenarios) exclusive to only certain classes, and such a thing shouldn't impact 1v1 performance.

Lim

I think we're agreed on Torc being bad for combat balance. It throws an irritating spanner in the works that makes it hard to balance around. My guess is that a game maker won't disagree with this from a game design perspective. Even if one takes the view it does not affect current classes, it also becomes an extra thing you have to factor in when designing new classes/mechanics.

I also don't think the admin disagrees that that p2w advantages are bad. It impacts fairness and competition, and the overall appeal of the game (limiting appeal to those with the cash to blow).

The trouble (same with eq crown) is that it's a legacy item that many people have, that is a sizeable chunk of credits, and therefore a mass refund will flood the game with lots of bound credits. This is tricky to navigate. It also means there is nothing for us to discuss because it is a business decision and judgement call.

The only question is whether its deletion will necessitate changes to the classes, and I think that is a bigger conversation, especially with people who have actually used the class firsthand.

Otherwise, there's literally nothing to discuss over 'should we delete torc'. The answer is yes, the only question is how. And this is devolving into a 'X class is OP' thread. Which tends to be stupid.

Lim

This is off-topic, and is incidental to the topic. And since people love flagging things off-topic here. Here- I'll flag it off-topic, myself. (kek)

Since we've had some people talk about Wayfarer being OP. Please note that I have been having trouble against Tina and Benedicto as Indo/Oneiromancer. Consistent trouble. Consistent deaths. Still working on it, but running out of solutions and ideas. That is why I am personally a lot more circumspect about saying Wayfarer is OP. When you use the class, you tend to see its weaknesses very much more acutely. I would urge anyone who calls a class OP, please try out the class first if you can afford it (and if it's available to you). It will give you a lot more insights into how the class works and how to exploit it.

edit: nevermind, can't flag your own post. So I'll do it the oldschool way.


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Illikaal

I think there's far too much isolation and napkin mathing going on here instead of observing how torc affects things as a whole. 

Delete immediate.

Sheryni

If torc were going to be deleted simply so it doesn't have to be taken into account and not because it's OP, then I'd say a similar paresis-giving ability should be added to archivist so as to not change the balance of it. I just don't like changes that impact balance made for non-balancing reasons.

Wayfarer/templar aren't as much of an issue since most people fight without even using it. It is a pretty standard archivist strategy, though.