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And it is not "reliably" that fast. I fought Almol earlier in the same tournament for a much longer period of time.
To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind slight nerfs to one aspect of archivist. I think the speed at which I can kill with growth, combined with its repeatability, might be OP. It's easy to stop by going defensive, but since I can do it over and over it allows me to force someone on the defensive or die very frequently. It's arguably combatable in the way speed locks are combatable, as a class cure would wholly avoid it, but if anything were too good, it would be that.
This, however, would not be impacted by changes to torc at all.
A cool down on growth usage so it's more limited, like monk blackout, for example, would be the easiest fix. There are others, like increasing the energy cost of growth by 1 or not allowing triple stimulant on one attack, but none of those center on torc.
I think people dying to lemniscate/matrix is more of a curing issue, though. The only problem I could agree with re: torc is the fact that unartied archivist doesn't get the same benefit.
What is ignorant is sitting here telling top tier combatants that their curing prios suck or there are bugs in their systems, but only against Archivist, and only if that archivist has torc. Then and only then do they have scrub level prios and bugs in their systems.
Edit: Especially since the guy that faced off with her in the finals confirmed it was over 25 seconds long.
This is why I want logs. Sniff.
@Zethrie post the logs.
An Archivist gets one energy every 15 (12 w/ artie) seconds, and at most, 4 energy (although it is much more likely to be three as you'll want ameliorate up at all times in any 1v1 battle).
Stimulant/Adrenaline costs 1 energy. Flare costs 1 energy. Growth costs 1 energy. Many other interesting abilities (like ethereal or preserve) costs more than one energy, but again, we're working on a 3 energy limit.
Growth could be 'spammed' perhaps to a degree, but at some point the Archivist will run out of energy, meaning that they will have to wait for it to regenerate if they want to use flare or growth again. A good cure priority will clear the physical affs that could cause growth to work, so if you want it guaranteed, you need to spend two energy (one on growth, one on flare).
Further, flare is tricky as it flares the next 'tick' of mutagen, meaning if the next tick is an aff they already have (say you're at 1/3 or 2/3) you have to wait for the 9-second cycle to tick over to the next aff in the trio before you flare if you want to seal the 3/3 phys affs.
Archivist is, at its core, a class of timing. You're watching matrix timing, afterimages timing, growth timing, mutagen timing, energy recovery timing. Even some of our support skills are timing based - most noticeably syncopate, which is one of our big pushes to slow down curing since we do not have, by default, access to anything other than impairment so cannot lock or turn off any other cure methods.
On-demand paresis helps to basically 'fill the gap' when we're twiddling our thumbs waiting for timing to happen. The mentals can be devastating, sure, but again - we can't really apply anorexia, slickness, impatience, or anything to truly slow down curing, apart from impairment and tracking random cure methods for a syncopate push with high mentals. With good curing (and/or the right class) getting the required physicals are nearly impossible - looking at you Soul purge.
I definitely have looked at ways to make mutagens more interesting, though, and I think there is definitely room for the class to expand and not necessarily have a better 'aff' rate, but tighter in getting the affs we need, as right now Archivist is a lot of "dump mentals and then try to push for your 3 phys". Growth is intended as a finisher, but the lockout of physicals tend to mean at some point someone can just start spamming shield, especially with Growth's very obvious telegraph.
So I don't like that Archivist feels its best with Torc and I think we need to tweak things to not see Torc as basically necessary as the class. I'll echo what @Sheryni said and remind that without matrix/lemniscate rolling together, we're sitting at one hidden aff every 2-ish seconds apart from madness procs, and then trying to get patterns to stay onboard for the train to actually leave the station. Before then, a quick diagnosis undoes any momentum we had before, if aff prediction hasn't already.
TL;DR - Archivist is strong, but in a precarious spot in its strength above a certain spot. It needs some tweaks, but Torc's existence hinders those tweaks in many meaningful ways.
Bioessence Growth: 3.00s bal (Windup of 4s to actually afflict)
Bioessence Flare: 1.75s bal
Geometrics Lemniscate: 3.44s eq
Geometrics Matrix: 2.75s eq
Geometrics Patterns: 1.72s eq
Geometrics Shape: 1.98s eq per aff
It's literally impossible to kill someone in sub 10s. Unravel requires 3 physical affs and 3 mental affs. It's just not possible, unless the target turned off their curing.
The Torc of Antitorc, or the Torc of Torcitude.
2k credits to nullify the effects of Torc of Telepathy. 8^)
So post a (full) log. We can all then see the blatant op or we can all collectively point out offensive or curing mistakes and we'll put some minds at ease.
Post logs kthx.
https://ada-young.com/pastebin/2t_bF49U
I would argue that Wayfarer in particular is the class most improved/impacted by torc and the difference between fighting someone like Lim (who doesn't really use torc) compared to Valeria (who now has a torc) is significant. Being able to essentially maintain paresis at all times in an unavoidable manner is incredibly potent for a venom class that relies on softlock. Certainly @Almol will remember numerous fights with me across his Teradrim and Carnifex whilst I ran Torcfarer.
I think it's also been mentioned that for the Templar/Revenant skills - rend + torc paresis is faster than base dsk speeds.
Lim tried it but doesn't prefer it because he thinks it's usually weaker. I use a hybrid where I'm usually only slaughter/torc-ing once or twice and then doing other things.
But if you do the math on it, it's really only a slightly faster aff rate even if they're curing paresis over other afflictions. And you can de-prio paresis to make it a worse aff rate.
kinda with bene here in that i don't really see why this thread became about whether or not sheryni is a good player (they are, obviously, i've literally watched them improve in sect over time and they just won the duel). happy for them, keep going, i believe in u.
torc shouldn't exist as it currently does.
if archivist needs on-demand paresis as part of its class offense to succeed, don't put it behind a 700cr gate, just adjust how they currently give paresis to match.
if templar is not supposed to be able to fight effectively with one broken arm, don't let them circumvent that with credits. if they are supposed to be able to fight alright with one broken arm (like every other knight class), it should not be gated behind 700cr.
wayfarer's axe throwing balance is gated by axe return speed. don't let them circumvent this with a 2s eq cost aff for 700cr.
if any of these three classes start to use torc by default, it becomes impossible to discuss the class balance without discussing torc, so just make it part of the classes' balance without costing credits. or get rid of it completely; i really don't care which, it's bad arti design as-is for it to be so useful for three different classes' offenses.
What baffles me is this insistence that the addition of a possible aff delivery while waiting on axes to return -isn't- a blatant increase in aff rate.
I think folks need to stop looking at the sheer number of affs/second and look at WHAT the affs are. That's the more important subject here.
Re: Torchivist, I've only dealt with Dourif in that regard and he uses it very sparingly as well (within 1 or 2 balances of an Unravel). My losses to him are, again, me sitting in room with low curing prios on physical affs and letting lemniscate roll.
Re: Torcplar, well. I was almost solely responsible for getting it nerfed a few years back. 3 affs on a 2s balance was just too much, so they altered how Rend functioned. Nowadays, it seems like a false equivalent to DSK - with only one of your affs being controllable, albeit on a faster balance, it won't equate to the benefit of having a full DSK IMO. It simply allows them to not be completely halted by a single limb break. Unsure if it still needs further addressing in that regard.
I don't think leaving paresis on you for brief moments is bad, though. It objectively decreases the aff rate because they don't have an alternative aff to give with torc in that window, other than a very premature and unnecessary stupidity.
No one would use slaughter without torc (or dagger, etc, in the gap). They would use the other attacks, so you're not comparing slaughter/torc to slaughter on its own. You're comparing it to lob or assault. Lob is like 1 aff every 1.1 seconds or something (just venoms, not counting fury). I don't know slaughter/torc off the top of my head but it's something like 3 affs in maybe 3.2 seconds, and one of those affs must always be paresis or stupidity.
If you already have paresis just one time when they just slaughtered you and would be torcing you, it'd have been better to use lob, and once you start using lob, your axe returns become mismatched and it's no longer optimal to go back to slaughtering because you'd have to wait on an axe return and the gain isn't very high.
And umm. @Kidos you just told me I'm wrong to stress that one of torc-farer's affs has to be paresis when it wouldn't have to with lob and then made the exact same argument as to why para/rend might be fine (slightly faster but has to include para). Do you realize this?
Weaponry can work around some of these things (just throw your rapier), but you can 1 access weaponry much easier and 2 balance around that (since dodge ranged, clumsiness, rebounding, etc. exist).
I do maintain that "Archi killed a guy really fast" is a terrible standard, because I've blown people up with it plenty, years ago, and I don't have a Torc. It's atypical in how it plays, which isn't a bad thing- just a different style. If you cure wrong vs an Archivist, you're going to explode. Curing 'wrong' vs DSL clone #12 is also going to get you locked, but we've been fighting that so long it just feels intuitive to cure correctly.
I just thought I would address it because it is one of the three instances of Torc used brought up in this thread.
Allow me to elaborate:
Wayfarer, when using Torc (primarily Slaughter) is capable of delivering a fury affliction (or two), two venom afflictions, and then the Torc affliction.
Templar, when using Torc (only with Rend) is capable of delivering rend or a venom/empowerment, and then the Torc affliction.
I haven't experience Torc/Rend since I abused it forever ago, so I've no true opinion on the matter there. As I stated, I am unsure if adjustment is necessary in that regard. What I have experienced is the overwhelming load that is losing your ability to focus, touch tree, and have 4 affs delivered within such a short span of time.
Seems like two different leagues.
In a similar vein, you just said brief moments for paresis, whereas the pill balance is brief moments. You have 4 seconds to cure paresis, so you might be able to squeeze in 1 or MAYBE 2 affs before curing paresis (which I do, I elevate after 3 seconds), but the 3 seconds of no tree combined with 5 seconds of no focus just guts my curing.
Again, this is my perspective as I am still trying to relearn and adjust my priorities after being away for so long. Since I was mentioned by name here, though, and I've had to deal with Torc'd and Torcless of both Archi and Wayfarer, I figured I would weigh in.
Again again, I am not saying anyone is WRONG HERE, I am just pointing out my observations and would also like to join the logs bandwagon because there are two completely different stories going on in this thread regarding torc's value.
I was just trying to clarify that that's the kind of advantage we're talking. Some people seem to be making it out to be bigger.
EDIT: I just went wayfarer to get exact numbers for the sake of accuracy.
After you're behind on axe return, though, it's 3 venoms in 3.525 seconds
So, slaughter + mind para gives 3 affs .155 seconds faster
This is with eq crown, so if you didn't also have eq crown it'd only be .015 seconds faster to use slaughter/torc.
To me, this is not substantial enough to bother nerfing.
#deleteTorc