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Torc + Class Interaction
Benedicto
Tentacles Errywhere!
A discussion I've been hearing about more and more frequently recently in relation to combat is the artifact 'Torc of Telepathy' and its relationship to certain classes - most notably Wayfarer and Archivist. I have experienced it before but have noticed how much prevalent it now seems to be with multiple individuals utilizing this artifact alongside their class skills.
Running on a 2 second base equilibrium usage, torc bestows the wearer the ability to use the MIND PARALYSE or the MIND STUPIDITY commands from telepathy. It can be used as long as the wearer has eq regardless of their status (prone/broken arms/paralysed/etc).
Due to the way that balances on Wayfarer work, it is possible to regain balance back before you regain axe balance. In the window where you have balance back but are waiting to throw again, torc is a useful tool to then regive paresis (as this is most usually the first affliction in anyone's curing order). Once a Wayfarer is looking to secure a lock, the torcs secondary affliction - stupidity - can be used i.e. (lob slickness/lob anorexia/mind stupidity). This allows 'Torcfarer' to machine gun out affs at a decently higher rate than your average Wayfarer.
Then there is Archivist (or Torchivist) - arguably the most serious of the two cases. Now, to my understanding this is a class that isn't supposed to have access to on-demand physical afflictions. Mutagens and/or a specific set of conditions on your target are what give the Archivist access to the 3x physical afflictions they need to go along with the 3x mentals. With access to torc, they can consistently churn out a physical affliction using mind paralyse to achieve something that they'd have to work towards normally. This is done in conjunction whilst using mutagen growth (a skill that after a short delay, allows a mutagen to afflict the target with all of its effects) and madness to suddenly overwhelm a target. Essentially circumnavigating the manner in which the class is intended to work.
Both of the above classes have an incredibly high affliction rate and from conversations I've had in the past, my understanding is that they are already intended to be 'glass cannons' - a high output rate with a relatively low amount of defensive/curing skills. However, their ability to use torc to further supplement their affliction output pushes them from being in balance with other classes into nigh unmanageable rates of affliction output - particularly in the case of Archivist where the use of torc essentially means that an individual doesn't have to learn the nuances of the class in order to succeed necessarily.
I'd like to know whether people agree with this or what their thoughts are on the subject - hence the discussion. I have a torc myself and have used it as Wayfarer but I would be more than happy to see it's eq usage upped considerably (doubled to my mind) in order for it to remain the gimmick item for which it was originally intended - i.e. stopping instakills and the like.
Running on a 2 second base equilibrium usage, torc bestows the wearer the ability to use the MIND PARALYSE or the MIND STUPIDITY commands from telepathy. It can be used as long as the wearer has eq regardless of their status (prone/broken arms/paralysed/etc).
Due to the way that balances on Wayfarer work, it is possible to regain balance back before you regain axe balance. In the window where you have balance back but are waiting to throw again, torc is a useful tool to then regive paresis (as this is most usually the first affliction in anyone's curing order). Once a Wayfarer is looking to secure a lock, the torcs secondary affliction - stupidity - can be used i.e. (lob slickness/lob anorexia/mind stupidity). This allows 'Torcfarer' to machine gun out affs at a decently higher rate than your average Wayfarer.
Then there is Archivist (or Torchivist) - arguably the most serious of the two cases. Now, to my understanding this is a class that isn't supposed to have access to on-demand physical afflictions. Mutagens and/or a specific set of conditions on your target are what give the Archivist access to the 3x physical afflictions they need to go along with the 3x mentals. With access to torc, they can consistently churn out a physical affliction using mind paralyse to achieve something that they'd have to work towards normally. This is done in conjunction whilst using mutagen growth (a skill that after a short delay, allows a mutagen to afflict the target with all of its effects) and madness to suddenly overwhelm a target. Essentially circumnavigating the manner in which the class is intended to work.
Both of the above classes have an incredibly high affliction rate and from conversations I've had in the past, my understanding is that they are already intended to be 'glass cannons' - a high output rate with a relatively low amount of defensive/curing skills. However, their ability to use torc to further supplement their affliction output pushes them from being in balance with other classes into nigh unmanageable rates of affliction output - particularly in the case of Archivist where the use of torc essentially means that an individual doesn't have to learn the nuances of the class in order to succeed necessarily.
I'd like to know whether people agree with this or what their thoughts are on the subject - hence the discussion. I have a torc myself and have used it as Wayfarer but I would be more than happy to see it's eq usage upped considerably (doubled to my mind) in order for it to remain the gimmick item for which it was originally intended - i.e. stopping instakills and the like.
10
Comments
If the class is supposed to be as significantly hindered as it is by one broken arm, torc shouldn't get around that. If it's not supposed to be so hindered by one broken arm, the solution should not be a 700cr artifact.
Bio flare expends one bio energy to afflict the next physical affliction from your mutagen from your list. It doesn't intelligently pick what physical affliction your opponent doesn't have from the mutagen to give it. Eg:
In order for bio growth to afflict all three physical afflictions, your opponent has to possess one affliction from your mutagen when it fires after a short windup. Paresis from torc doesn't trigger this.
I have seen how Archivists use torc in their route. I don't think it's a crutch or that it will mean individuals don't need to learn the nuances of the class to succeed in it. I've only ever seen torc used and personally used it as a finisher, where I have the requisite mental afflictions and all I need is one more physical affliction to unravel. However, I can understand how overwhelming how it can be when it's paired with our ability to expend bio energy to reduce the time taken to recover for torc balance recovery.
But I find the OP slightly offensive. I would challenge anyone who thinks my archivist is not "nuanced" to try the class themselves, as I spent a lot of time learning to line everything up well enough to kill with it consistently and use just about every mechanic available to archivist in the process.
That is all. Carry on.
I've certainly fought some extremely successful Archivists who didn't need torc in order to seal the deal and what my recent fight with you showed me was how obnoxious torc in combination with Archivist could really be if it's leaned upon. It wasn't intended to offend, but to highlight that by using torc heavily, an Archivist can certainly circumvent a good amount of the additional requirements an Archivist might usually need to go through in order to obtain their 3 physical afflictions.
Also I said a tall order against a decent fighter with good curing. If you're diagnosing at the right moments, shielding before bio growth hits, running when matrix/lemniscate sticks enough for patterns and throws you afflictions, I can hardly kill you. This is par for the course with almost every class though.
What I would like is more intelligent affliction with bio flare, amongst other suggestions, and also more routes to kill than just unravel or damage. And we can consider limits on torc so bio stimulant can't reduce torc balance recovery timing.
Archivist should be able to stand on its own without torc. It's already a strong class with an interesting playstyle, it shouldn't need to spend 700cr for an extra physical aff to proc its instakill. Add on-demand paresis to the class and nuke torc's use for it if Archivist is supposed to have on-demand paresis, or just nuke torc if the class isn't supposed to have easy access to the extra physical aff and buff the class if it needs help afterwards.
Templar's position is unclear here, but assuming that the class is supposed to be stopped by having one broken arm... nuke torc's interaction with the class. You shouldn't need to spend 700cr to fix one of your class's main weaknesses (and you shouldn't be able to spend 700cr to counteract the same weakness if it's intentional class design).
Torcfarer I can't really comment on, but slaughter into torc use before axes return just seems silly on paper. Maybe someone with more experience with the matchup can weigh in, I haven't played wayfarer or against torcfarer in a while.
1) Is X class balanced without this artifact?
2) Do we want X class to be balanced around this artifact?
3) Is X class boosted by having this artifact?
Where we go from there depends on what the answers to these questions are. I'm not the one making the decisions, but in the case of torc for any class, I really think the answer to 2) should be no, hence my call to just delete and refund.
delete torc of telepathy.
(Web): Abhorash says, "Nerds."
(Web): Abhorash has left your web.
Alela's Affirmations
@Sheryni I'm guessing you were the prompt the of OP, but as Alela said, the issue has been around for forever. You just reminded us of its power.
Also, I would love to get my hands on the class. Give me archi mirror >:)
And while we are on artifact deleting, please can we also delete hood. No one should be able to hide from me forever with a 2000cr artie >:(
;[
Edited to add: It is not venom source, so it bypasses purity as well.
Yes, classes should not be balanced around artifacts. Same concept applies as with eq_crown (including the conundrums that come with refunding eq_crown).
Yes, I would like to see elusion hood deleted and refunded too.
On Archivist:
My personal view is that more needs to be done to make Archivist viable without torc. Thus far, 99% of kills has been noob-checks and improper curing on the target's part. I tried bringing this up to Keroc but some of you dumdums (jk (or am I? (:p? )) apparently have been saying Archivist is awesome/one of the best classes, etc., so I blame you guys.
Most people cry 'torchivist OP' do so a bit blindly (please forgive my bluntness!), where their deaths are because of mind paralyse being used as the final aff - which when used in this manner, has fairly decent substitutes, like jab, flare, madness+bloom. The other reason is the growth trick, which has nothing to do with mind paralyse/torc. These are not good reasons for saying that Archivist is dependent on torc/Archivist is OP with torc, etc.
Where the complaint does have some merit though, is where mind paralyse is used as a holding affliction while waiting for a mutagen tick/bloom proc. This can't be done without torc, and I don't think jabbing curare is an exact alternative because that requires rebounding to be down during the entire duration (Archivist can't strip rebounding), and jabbing takes a significantly long balance than mind paralyse (if I don't remember wrong, it does not/barely beats pill balance).
If torc is to be deleted, the impotence of Archivist (beyond noob-checks and bad curing) needs to be addressed before, not after. Please.
On Wayfarer:
I don't really want to comment too much on this because I've been fiddling with Wayfarer lately, and unreasonable people (buttheads) would dismiss anything I say as a conflict of interest/bias on my part. I also haven't had the chance to fight with many Wayfarers, so I would really love if more people picked it up to prove the point instead of saying it from the recipient's point of view without ever having appreciated the weaknesses of the class.
My take, in short, is that torcfarer is better only against shield spammers. Otherwise it's overhyped and I'd prefer the usual methods. I just got some inspiration on how to deal with shield spamming without torc, though. So I want to try that out a bit more first before coming to a position on whether Wayfarer needs something for dealing with shield spam before torc gets deleted, or if torc can just be deleted outright.
On Templar:
The key benefit of torc-rend now is against single-arm breaks. I do feel that Templar has been watered down quite a bit, so if torc is to be deleted, something should probably be done to mitigate the effect of single arm breaks on Templar. Not sure where the math lies on whether they should just get single-arm break immunity like Carnifex, or if it should just be mitigated sometimes, but right now they do feel to me like the lesser cousin of the Carnifex/Warden.
They're not mutually exclusive.
Of course torc is better than jabbing curare. Weapon runed weapons are better than non-weapon runed weapons. I did say curare jabs could largely replace it, not that it was not "better" than them.
If the issue is simply that people without torc cannot compete as well, I wouldn't be opposed to simply adding paralysis to the archivist kit. I don't personally believe archivist with paralysis is overpowered, though. If anything is overpowered about archivist, it is not sticking one physical every 9 full seconds by spamming paralysis. Most classes afflict much faster than that.
And my fight with Benedicto, as an example, since it prompted this thread, was quite long. He only died because he had lemniscate and matrix both running on him for a fairly long time. That is an investment that requires time to set up and rewards it (if it works) with a very high aff output. If I couldn't get a kill off that, I think the class would be underpowered.
Coming soon: torc of GREATER telepathy, granting access to MIND BLACKOUT and the CLAIRVOYANCE passive!
(delete torc please)
In Archivist's case, it's clear that the limiting factor of their class is the lack of 'on demand' physical afflictions. This makes me ask a few questions from a class design perspective, namely:
Is it alright for the class to 'answer' or negate that limitation at the cost of 700 credits? I don't think so, but...
If it is alright, how many other classes should get that benefit of opting out of a design limitation? It better be all of them, on a side note, but...
Once we've decided that is, is 700 credits the sweet spot? 700cr is closing in on almost another class, but also...
If ignoring that limitation is commonplace, do we need to change the design of the class to compensate for this commonplace possibility? After all, those limitations existed for a reason!
It's not that 'Archivist with paralysis is overpowered' - it's 'Archivist with on demand paralysis with no hoops they must jump through, unlike the rest of the actual kit, is overpowered'. Which, to be honest, I do agree with the premise of. If you are designing a class around the notion of 'no on demand physical afflictions', you tend to make a lot of allowances - their mental rate is better, they lack commonplace hinder, they have better defensive tools because of that lack of hinder, etc. If, after you give a class all of this and design accordingly, you place the option on the table to ignore the weakness that begat all these decisions, any player would be foolhardy to not at least consider it.
This is a rabbit hole that largely begins at 'should you be able to buy your way out of weaknesses in IRE?'
The answer is probably yes, much to our chagrin.
I'm still on team #DeleteTorc, but for selfish reasons: I don't want to buy one and I'd like the class straightened out before Spirit gets a mirror of it. I perceive that the existence of torc exerts its own gravity on Archivist class design, which makes it harder for us to examine the class by itself. Torc is inextricably linked to Archivist in discussions about the class, after all - anecdotal as it is, I've never heard torc not come up in discussions about it. I would prefer we not begin balancing the class around the existence of this artifact and I believe in equal parts that the artifact's existence will only continue to spawn these strange corner cases as clever players continue asking questions.
I think the balancing factor is that its physical aff rate is substandard, which is still the case, even with torc. You're not going to outpace tree, renew, passive cures, and class actives by just spamming mind paralyse with a mutagen going. That is not mathematically possible. You have to use a variety of mechanics to burn through all those cures and stick three mentals in order to even get to the point where all you need is three physicals.
Then, even with torc, you're giving one physical every 1.7(?) seconds plus one more every 9 seconds from mutagen. The torc physical is stuck as paresis. If they cure the other physicals first, you aren't giving more with torc to get to 3. There is a notable weakness in physical aff rate you can take advantage of to avoid dying. I've lost to archivists a few times, myself, but never in a way that I felt I hadn't made a pretty significant error that caused my death.
The class actually has a very low mental aff rate as well, if you don't get stuck with lemniscate on you, which is conditional.
Most archivist attacks are one mental every 2ish seconds which, to me, is an extremely slow aff rate. Madness is three at once but for a heftier balance and a long CD. So if you just spammed mentals upfront, it would be a low total aff/sec rate compared to most classes.
The class mostly sticks mentals by them being hidden, not pure aff rate. You can have a much higher aff rate if you get matrix lemniscate going but that can be viably stopped by good curing. Lemniscate and matrix don't give any affs if they do stop it from working, so you expend over 10 seconds with 0 affs stuck if this happens.
I don't think that's a problem, since the reward is high, but I do think it's a major balancing factor. It's not like archivist is throwing out an even "normal" aff rate at will, compared to other classes.
In my fight with Benedicto, I think it took me close to ten minutes to get lemniscate/matrix going. At that point, I had a high mental aff rate and was able to finish him off. I just don't see how that significantly differs from other classes. The main reason archivist seems so successful is people curing it less well than other classes.
I can use two abilities that deliver no immediate affs and then try to stick patterns in a tight window. If it sticks, after this ten second setup I'll have a high aff rate until you end it by curing certain afflictions. If you touch tree or a passive cures patterns, etc., then I've done approximately three affs in 12 or so seconds, including my passive mutagen. It's very conditional. Most classes don't function that way so it's a little hard to compare.
Archivist afflicts in bursts if X aff is present at Y time and otherwise has subpar aff rate. As someone fighting an archivist, I'd make sure X aff wasn't present at Y time and stop the high aff rate from coming to be. I can't do that to a templar, carnifex, or syssin. It's just very unique.