Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 3.7K All Categories
- 3K The Midnight Age
- 757 Announce posts
- 122 Newbies
- 6 Class Guides
- 803 Harpy's Head Tavern
- 57 Echo Canyon
- 309 Self-Affirmations
- 163 Town Crier
- 135 The Exchange
- 167 Sparring Grounds
- Combat Guides
- 30 Combat Logs
- 188 Idea Box
- 9 Classleads
- 578 Roleplay Logs
- 107 Aetolia Development
- 5 The Void
- 742 Miscellaneous
- 9 Announcements
- 417 OOC Chat
- 215 Tech Talk
- 45 Scripts
Comments
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
If there's a problem with the culture of the organziation, and with vampires in general, that probably should be worked on. Just like how Duiran's cultural problems had to be worked on in the past.
If the problem is largely cultural, I really don't think the admin can be expected to devote coding resources to tossing a bandage on the situation and leaving the cultural problems to fester and, ultimately, get worse. That was done with houses at one point and...well, look where we are.
Furthermore, like, the only reason Praenomen/Vampire is built the way it is is due to how obscenely old the class is. When Aet came out, that's just how they had to make it. Nowadays, there's a lot more latitude and mechanical room for things like subraces that are disconnected from classes, and it's 100% worth exploring whether Praenomen can be made more widely accessible without the baggage of a subrace with, like, 1000's of in-game years and over a decade of real life years of history and lore that is very restrictive.
The problem people are stating, as I understand it, is that Praenomen is essentially the only class that's not fully available to players (within the bounds of relevant tether and multiclassing restrictions) because it has a secondary set of restrictions (that aren't always well advertised or clear until you've been playing it for a while) that make keeping the class fairly onerous. That seems like a fair point, and I agree it's a big part of what's put me off of trying the class.
Just piping in with an 'agree', I guess. Nothing meaningful to add.
Editing to add: It's significant that I've been put off trying the class because I've played every class (sans new Ascendril) at one time or another. I like having some familiarity with everything so that I know how to play with and/or against it. That I can't do so with Praenomen without making RP sacrifices that are, by several orders of magnitude, more significant than for any other class really sticks in my craw.
Make Praenomen/Vampire be like Shapeshifter. When not 'in it' you're effectively fully masquerading.
Instead of Mutate/REVERT
REVEAL/MASQUERADE to shift in/out. When 'in it' the subrace is activated, etc, but otherwise when you're NOT in it, you're either living or undead.
Cure could still be a thing to clear that 'class slot' effectively and would restrict you from being on Spirit Tether for obvious reasons, but otherwise if you want to run around normally as Carnifex/Scio/etc, you appear as normal you etc. I'm also inclined to say it would take the spot of shapeshifter because werewolf vs. vampire things, but would be kind of unfair to block out a neutral class from shadow tether at the same time, so maybe not.
Just an idea? Dominion could stay or go, this idea wouldn't really restrict the RP involved I don't think.
Thoughts?
Instead of a direct copy of shifters, vampires would have three abilities to control their state. I'd also not have it take up a class slot. We're trying to encourage use.
BLOODLUST (or something more thematic) to become Praenomen class. While Praenomen'd the Vampire tag is attached to their description and they can't change class or Masquerade unless completely alone and out of sunlight (no NPCs or players).
MASQUERADE to revert to their previous class and remove the stigma of Vampire from the description which removes the NPC negativity/hostility.
REVEAL which can only be done if already Masquerading to apply the VAMPIRE tag and return all the npc hostility. Things like 'FEED' and other abilities that work while not in Praenomen would automatically cause this to happen, including low health/blood and direct sunlight.
How would we fit this into the current lore? I have a few ideas. My history isn't the best so this might not make a lot of sense to those who know better than me on these subjects. Take this example as a concept that would need to be expanded upon by more lore-conscious members of the community. I always worry that by sharing an idea it'd invalidate it but this is a summary and not many actually use the forums. Spoiler tag anyway!
tl;dr: Aetolia needs two things to make vampires good (and everything else): a writer and concise purpose for each faction. The writer needs to weave a loose history together to support a purpose people can get behind. Bamathis is a purpose and I believe that's why it was so popular. The player also did a phenomenal job. The origin was also quite epic.
Nothing is too far to be a lost cause. Vampires can be saved in numerous ways but they need to make sense in the world and make sense to the Meta world. Gone are the days of Vampires being a scary threat. The moon exploded, a giant snake is imprisoned underground, the cosmic horror is here. Strong pretty people who drink blood are now a low priority on the exterminate list and that needs to change.
At some level, combat has been balanced at tether-level to ensure balance in organization conflict. This includes the Praenomen class. The Praenomen class brings a handful of very beneficial utility to combat mechanics. Two such examples are as followed:
- AB SANGUIS BIND: This ability, paired with the Praenomen's ability to BLOCK a direction, allows the Praenomen to singlehandedly set up a situation where they can both prevent their allies from being lured, beckoned, or forced to move in a direction via telepathy. This combination of abilities is the only one of its kind to exist throughout the entire Shadow tether, and is mirrored in both the Sentinel (AB WOODLORE ELK) and the Templar (AB BATTLEFURY STURDINESS and AB RIGHTEOUSNESS FOCUS).
- AB SANGUIS LURE: This ability will force a player to move on their own accord in the direction of the Praenomen as long as line of site is maintained. This ability is unique to the Praenomen across the Shadow tether, and its closest relative is found in the Luminary class (AB SPIRITUALITY BECKON).
These are but two instances of undeniably potent utility that is unique to the Praenomen class, and therefore currently gated behind the subrace of Vampirism. If you require any further explanation on the merits of these abilities, and their mirrors, feel free to reach out and I would very much enjoy further expanding on the usage of such in the competitive PvP scene.
Now to pursue more specific counterarguments that have been presented:
@Xavin:
I will be blunt here; I am having a very difficult time in understanding what it is you, along with Spirit as a whole, have to lose in this scenario. The only 'skin' you have in this particular situation, that is to say the only way I can perceive it effecting you, is that more Praenomen would appear in group-fighting scenarios.
How is it that you can tell myself and my peers that you don't see the importance of giving us the same right and privilege that you yourself already enjoy?
@Haven:
What I had to say to Xavin very likely covers much of what I would say to you in regards to your concerns. I would like to touch on one point, however.
@Rebra
I am incredibly sorry to hear that you have been the recipient of any kind of OOC harassment or mistreatment. I would encourage you to bring that to the attention of the Administration, if you have not done so already. That being said, I disagree that your post provided any real merit to the perceived issue here; that no other class in the nature of competitive PVP is gated behind any requirement other than tether, and that Aetolia has very pointedly made this change over the years to propogate a level playing field in that very competitive scene.
@Seurimas
I am unsure how your desire to rebalance every class in Aetolia is somehow the preferred method here, rather than simply ensuring that Praenomen is available for all sans the need for gatekeeping it behind a subrace?
@Saybre
When I first read through your post, I admit, it almost appealed to me. Though, the more I thought about it, the more I found what others have already shared; that this does not remove the core problem of an entire skillset being gated behind a subrace, when no other organization is forced to make these decisions. I do appreciate that you came with a solution, though. It was refreshing to read someone hoping to provide a solution rather than a simple stamp of disapproval.
@Iadra
If you would be willing to expand on this point(question?) for me, I would love to address it. Now, I am not a master of deciphering tone in words, but if I had to make an assumption, your input carries the ring of incredulity to it, while simultaneously missing the core argument of this thread. If I'm wrong here, please don't hestitate to expand on your single question.
I think I've gotten through the majority of viable counterpoints made throughout the thread. I have noticed a few Dominion members throwing up some reactions, and I'd love to hear some of their input regarding this request. I do not like to put words in other people's mouths, but I would wager that those in the Dominion might feel that they would lose something over this, and if that is the case, I would urge them to reconsider that mindset. You do not lose your roleplay. You do not lose your class, your skills, your home, your abilities. You lose nothing. In return, I, as a combatant in a roleplaying game, do not lose out on a choice that no one else in the game is forced to make. Food for thought.
I mean, I understand that taking on the gift of the Blood is definitely going to be life-changing, but I don't understand why I must be forced to choose between embracing a class for the combat capabilities and the current story I am building with my character. There isn't a modicum of freedom and leeway here to explore any sort of roleplay that offers an in-between, because that vampire sub-race is foisted upon you in a neatly wrapped class package, something no other classes with their own "class RP" have to deal with.
Is it really not possible to divorce vampiric roleplay in the Imperial Dominion from Praenomen as a class, to have people interested in involving themselves in Consanguinic culture opt-in to embrace the lifestyle of one (just like how undeath is a choice)?
1. Praenomen is paired with a subrace because of the legacy of the class. The subrace exists strictly because the multiclass system exists in the first place.
2. By having the subrace you are forced into a certain type of roleplay. Not strictly Dominion style imperial vampires but you're a vampire. You subsist on the blood of sentient beings and everything that goes along with it.
The result is that this creates roleplay problems, causing you to have to change your character. Not something that is strictly one tether's problem, either, as any class someone picks up should have some impact on that character's roleplay, just nothing as drastic as becoming a vampire. Some roleplay doors will inevitably shut, but there were doors already at least partially closed.
This argument comes down to a set of players not wanting to take up the role associated with a class for whatever reason. And that is perfectly valid, considering how extreme that role is. If anything, I'm surprised that this did not become an issue before now - people were resistance to playing praenomen or bloodborn when multiclassing was released, and what caused things like the effects of the sun on vampires to be toned down a few times if I remember correctly.
My main concern is whether or not whatever redesign and coding required for this project would take away resources from other vital projects that impact the whole of the game. I think it would be incredibly helpful for the admin to chime in on their opinion of if this is actually a problem, and what they view the solution as from their end.
Again, I am not saying that I think you should have to drastically change your roleplay if you don't want to. But this is an issue that is as old as the multiclass system and something that has been complained about in the past. The admin have never given it much attention, though. I hope they at least say something this time because I know how much it must suck to have to choose between keeping consistent to your roleplay and picking a class that is underrepresented.
I do think, though, that if you don't have any current vampires participating you might want to look at the whys of that situation as well. These things don't just happen in a vacuum, and in the past when Spirit has been lacking one or another class the answer we've been given is to either suck it up and grab the class ourselves or to figure out how to fix what is keeping players of that class from sticking around or participating.
- Meltas: Seems quite busy IRL; logs in less frequently now
- Ayuna: appears sometimes in fights, knows what to do, busy with getting level 200 (can't fault that), will teach prae combat with rhyot
- Rhyot: preferred on other classes most of the times but does rotate to vampire when we need him
- Menelaus: frequent participant, seems to know what he's doing.
- Azarae: does occasionally join, knows what to do
- Jhin: he only does solo combat, group combat doesn't appeal to him
- Azami: see above, group combat doesn't appeal
- Rebra: does hop into lessers when available, knows what to do mostly
- Gavramel: not even tri-trans, so limited in help
- Emiko: unsure if tri-trans? Sometimes will join, but has no real tutelage on skills
- Lilein: tries to join when alert, has some concept of prae combat but more rp-focused
- Galilei: Does combat as carni and prae, but no real tutelage in prae combat because lacking prae combatants to teach, should change soon hopefully
- Sarita: rp-focused
- Callidora: rp-focused
- Vizzer: rp-focused
- Macavity: occasionally turns up, but utilizes Teradrim more due to familiarity with skills
- Tetchta: Carnifex beyblade, knows nothing else
- Teflin: rarely logs on now, IRL life snatched him awayyyy
And that's all the names I know. When Ezalor, Cariv, or Ellenia was still around they'll at least know and try to teach people how to utilize their skills. Now we really only have Rhyot and Ayuna in their place.
To clarify further on a few on your list, though she is more rp-centric, Lilein has far more of a concept of Prae combat than many listed. She was part of a group trained by Ayuna and Rhyot, does JS Nexus coding for the class, and helps teach Praenomen in my Nexus training camp on Discord, which is set up to teach basic group coding for Prae and can be integrated for other classes to help newer players be able to utilize the mechanics of the class in a step to step guide of how to implement the skills into the system. There are also others that learned from Ayuna and Rhyot on the list. Vizzer is also trained in group combat at these IG training sessions, and was studying from us at the same time as Rebra, so they can utilize the group path of Phreneses fairly well as long as there are other trained Prae on the field. The same goes for Teflin, Arahali, Mythunnar, and several others not listed.
At the point where I finally reach second ascension, it has been discussed that training for combat will open back up again -- hopefully for one regularly organized date and time of the week again -- and will be open to all who wish to participate. History, lore, mechanics and group synergy are all very important to the richness of the Praenomen class.
I will not fight one way or another on the discussion at hand, because I have very mixed feelings on these things and very much respect the history of vampires themselves. Although I can see the points that are being brought up to free a class from having to choose undead/vampire, I also see the value in keeping a legacy tied to a certain class. As time has gone on in Aetolia, many classes have been diluted and history has been lost, that history being what has been the point in drawing players to our beautiful game as it is, including myself. On the other side, I can see the mechanical, and with some, RP argument for a class not being locked behind a "lifestyle" choice as well. I, for one, will not ever take Ayuna away from being a Consanguine, as the rich history built with her Consanguine RP and building her "mechanical" knowledge both make her who she is.
I know my post may be off topic in relevance to the debate of locked classes, etc., but it is worth noting. That is all I will say, aside my commendation for this discussion being healthy debate. Please do keep up the respect. Have a great one!
I don't know anything of the problem other than what is said in this thread.
It sounds like people are being treated badly in a roleplay sense for picking up the class and that is the major issue based on previous comments?
There isn't any major mechanical downside to being a vampire from what people are saying in comments aide from minor sun damage. So this is a roleplay isssue?
I ask for clarification because it sounds as if people are saying there is a mechanical problem with people picking up the class but the only issues I see described is that it is a roleplay problem for them to pick it up?
Like Naos and I would go praenomen boy band or something, but the vampire stuff is not something that would make sense for Eht and I don't know of another class that's locked behind a subrace really.
When Mirror Classes come in the next 500 years, it'll be nice for everybody for class access to not be unnecessarily clumsy. And if Spirit has Easy Access to Mirror Praenomen without similar baggage, I imagine the salt mines will be working overtime.
Because of those mechanical identifiers for the sub-race, they feel many more RP opportunities closing to them than there are opening and as such the mechanical benefits of utilizing the class for some of the players do not outweigh the societal cost they must endure. It's kind of like when Dhar was the popular god in the game and people were ragging on Carnifex for a while some 3-5 years ago for being soul sucking dog beaters. That is very much a perception problem and largely subjective. Unfortunately for shadow, vampires have fallen out of style for whatever variety of reasons and their missing utility is being felt on the combat scene and that's where I feel the "flavor of the month" kicks in.
That said... After some thought, the real kicker here and the main reason why I would support a potential change is that Praenomen is one of the last few niche cases where class accessibility is restricted by what's essentially become a cosmetic feature. When undeath fell out of style, enough people eventually did not like Teradrim being gated behind undeath and it was changed. Now Praenomen is being put on the table for evaluation. I suspect were it not for multiclass and tethering, Luminary's restrictions against undeath would eventually get looked at as well.
It begs the question: Should player class be restricted by what is essentially an aesthetic/cosmetic feature? Especially when the restriction only affects one side of the game? I'm inclined to say no. Divorcing vampirism from the class and developing it to be an iconic status in the game similar to endgame or something could be cool but undoubtedly would open up a lot of opportunity both content-wise for players and $$ for the game like @Borminchia said.
I don't know what the admin's plans are for the game but unless they intend to double-down on vampirism being a corner stone for the game and make it more appealing to the playerbase, they should seriously consider some solutions or at the very least some responses here in the thread.
Edit: don't hate the idea of vampire being limited to endgame though tbh.
Edit: Imagine taking embracement away from the players and making an Abhorash super dungeon or something. Do special tasks, kill special mobs, get an honors line and world echo at the end that elevates you to vampirism. Lots of ways to make vampirism unique and more iconic and appealing.
So Praenomen -> Manipulator (or something, blood mage, etc. as someone mentioned before) and not be tied to the vampire aspect, some skill flavor retooling would be needed a bit of course.
Subrace becomes a separate RP mechanic entirely, with the flavor bonuses/maluses tweaked further to make it slightly more appealing for those who MAY want it.
If it encourages more people to try out the class, get into fighting, etcetera, then definitely! Not sure how priority it will be on the Admin list though
Edit: Said 'stat bonuses' really more flavor bonuses besides the various regens rather than hard stats.
All without actually making access to a class difficult. It's a really attractive fix to several problems at once, I think, with negligible in-world lore implications that can't be easily addressed one way or another.
ALSO, the whole sire/embrace thing for access to skills is a huge PITA, in my opinion. Having graduated from novicehood, I don't gotta jump through any extra hoops to have full skill access with any other class. It's been made significantly easier in recent years now that there's a NPC who can sire (and also embrace? I'm unclear on this part), but it's still a weird extra step.
I've thought about this in the past and I could see it being done the exact same way that lycan is done through a transformation rather than a class switch and I doubt this would be a time intensive change to implement.
Even though I've gone through the whole thing of accepting lycanthropy, it's not my identity while I'm in other classes unless I RP it as such. There isn't any reason why this can't also be true for vampirism especially with the precedent of a skill like masquerade.
What's more, there's hardly any flavor in the class that REALLY forces people to be vampires in order to justify it. There's some blood use for magic, sure, but the rest of it is just beatin' fools up with your fists while zappin' them with brain powers. It's basically Zealot and Monk, but with more hissing and black leather.