Don't bite me, bro! - Vampire vs Praenomen

NaosNaos Member Posts: 39 ✭✭
I've had a few people reach out to ask why I perceive the Praenomen class being gated behind the Vampire subrace as a problem. I thought I might enlighten anyone that's curious, as well as put out a request for other player's input, to gauge whether the logic and reasoning for wanting such a drastic change makes sense.

At its core, nowhere else in the game are players forced to choose between mechanical benefits versus personal roleplay to the degree that the Shadow tether is in regards to the Praenomen class. In a class that arguably boasts some of the most beneficial team-fighting abilities, having the class gated behind a subrace is the exact opposite of what Aetolian combat has strove to become over the past few years; a competitive, interactive scene where classes are often found balanced in relation to the whole of their tether.

This has led Praenomen to gain various, unarguable strengths in terms of utility over the years, where other classes have not:

- AB SANGUIS BIND
- AB MENTIS LURE
- AB MENTIS TRILL
- AB MENTIS DISRUPT
- AB SANGUIS FEAST

These abilities hold an incredible amount of group utility for what is very obviously Aetolia's mainstay; group combat.

I would also like to expand on the roleplay disadvantages I find the Vampire subrace carries. Vampire roleplay is some of the most popular roleplay in the game by all accounts, and has always been an enormous pull to the game's population just by sheer marketing. The Vampire Mud! That being said, Vampire roleplay has also become far and away the most polarizing throughout the entire game. By my own eyes, there does not seem to be an easier way to effectively neuter your chances at roleplay with the opposing tether than to become a Vampire. I have seen them asked to leave cities, I have seen them killed in order to remove them, and I have seen characters willing to completely leave a scene due to the arrival of a Vampire. Now, given the roleplay of both Duiran and Enorian, there's nothing actually wrong with that behavior. What does feel like a particularly rough pill to swallow, however, is having to accept that in exchange for what amounts to a mechanical choice in the realm of competitive combat.

Again, I look forward to input from anyone and everyone, especially the Aetolian administration! There may very well be parts of this that I'm missing, and I welcome all opinions on whether or not this is a genuine concern worth addressing.
TetchtaRebraOonaghXavinIazamatRijettaCallidora
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Comments

  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    I kinda wanna skip ahead past the why and get to the how of this particular issue. Let's take it as a given that vampirism and praenomen were to be separated somehow, how exactly would that work? A lot of Sanguis, Corpus, and even Mentis is tied, flavor-wise and mechanically, with vampirism, and I think there's a lot of legwork that'd have to be done to put a crowbar between them, and that's not even mentioning "what do we do about The Dominion as an organization?"

    My initial thoughts are: does The Dominion become the Praenomen Guild That Just So Happens To Have a History Tied To Vampirism? What would vampless Praenomen look like?

    NaosGalileiRijettaAyuna
  • LinLin Blackbird The MoongladeMember Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Avatar answered this question with bloodbending. Next!
    Rijetta
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tbqh I don't see how the Praenomen class which is built upon being a vampire could be separated from the state of vampirism. At a minimum it would need to be retooled and reflavored. This strikes me as an extreme end of what exists with another Shadow class - Teradrim. Teradrim are, as far as I know, not mechanically required to be undead but the Teradrim guild requires it - or at least used to? And I would imagine they want people they apprentice to also be undead. There's a similar situation on Spirit with the Luminary class, or at least used to be - you couldn't generate Spark as an undead Luminary which make it impractical if not impossible to actually use the abilities. I was also under the impression that undead can't generate Devotion either, but maybe I'm wrong on that one. But all that isn't really an issue for people on the Spirit tether because when are you actually going to ever see an undead Luminary?

    This whole situation is a pretty curious side effect of the multiclass system. I know on the Spirit side of the game there are at least a small group of characters that have some distaste towards Duamvi, and I would imagine that would extend to the inevitable mirror class that requires its state (likely the vampire mirror, imo), but that's a pipe dream for the time being.

    An idea would be to look at the whole suite of abilities that Praenomen get and figure out which ones are explicitly tied to being a vampire. I would argue that if the class can be held and used by non vampires that some of those abilities should be lessened or outright locked for characters who are not vampires. I know that doesn't exactly sound appealing but I'm specifically thinking of things like earthmeld and entomb's sped up death recovery, specifically because spirit anchor reduces death recovery with entomb down to something crazy like 30 seconds.

    At the end of the day I'm sort of on the fence about whether this is actually a problem, though I very much understand the frustration of having a class that has good abilities that are lacking elsewhere basically locked off to you due to your roleplay. It becomes a question of if it is worth compromising your roleplay to grab a class that you want to play.

    NaosRijetta
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
    Xavin said:

    An idea would be to look at the whole suite of abilities that Praenomen get and figure out which ones are explicitly tied to being a vampire. I would argue that if the class can be held and used by non vampires that some of those abilities should be lessened or outright locked for characters who are not vampires. I know that doesn't exactly sound appealing but I'm specifically thinking of things like earthmeld and entomb's sped up death recovery, specifically because spirit anchor reduces death recovery with entomb down to something crazy like 30 seconds.
    .

    I think mostly you have Mistform, Entomb (and the associated skills for both), feed (up in the air, very arguable), a whole host of things in sanguis (embrace, sire), and then basically the flavor skills, masquerade, maybe bat/wolf form. Quite possibly the three different specialties (but this could be lore'd around).

    Honestly now that I go through the skill list it's really not that much. A lot of it is dependent on what is essentially "blood magic" but I don't think there's anything innately Vampire about that. I do think vamps should maybe get some bonuses to the class though, even if they're minor.

    IazamatNaosRijetta
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
    Rhyot said:

    Tetchta said:


    A lot of it is dependent on what is essentially "blood magic" but I don't think there's anything innately Vampire about that.


    BLOODBORN SAYS, "YOU FKIN WUT M8?!?!"
    Yeah, I had a Bloodborn in Ye Olde Times, and I still think, by Aetolian Standards, there's nothing that says You Have To Be A Vampire To Do Blood Magic other than mechanics. I mean I literally slurp up souls for health in game without a subrace, bloodmagic ain't THAT weird.

    Rijetta
  • SaidennSaidenn Member Posts: 19
    Xavin said:
    Tbqh I don't see how the Praenomen class which is built upon being a vampire could be separated from the state of vampirism. At a minimum it would need to be retooled and reflavored. This strikes me as an extreme end of what exists with another Shadow class - Teradrim. Teradrim are, as far as I know, not mechanically required to be undead but the Teradrim guild requires it - or at least used to? And I would imagine they want people they apprentice to also be undead. There's a similar situation on Spirit with the Luminary class, or at least used to be - you couldn't generate Spark as an undead Luminary which make it impractical if not impossible to actually use the abilities. I was also under the impression that undead can't generate Devotion either, but maybe I'm wrong on that one. But all that isn't really an issue for people on the Spirit tether because when are you actually going to ever see an undead Luminary? This whole situation is a pretty curious side effect of the multiclass system. I know on the Spirit side of the game there are at least a small group of characters that have some distaste towards Duamvi, and I would imagine that would extend to the inevitable mirror class that requires its state (likely the vampire mirror, imo), but that's a pipe dream for the time being. An idea would be to look at the whole suite of abilities that Praenomen get and figure out which ones are explicitly tied to being a vampire. I would argue that if the class can be held and used by non vampires that some of those abilities should be lessened or outright locked for characters who are not vampires. I know that doesn't exactly sound appealing but I'm specifically thinking of things like earthmeld and entomb's sped up death recovery, specifically because spirit anchor reduces death recovery with entomb down to something crazy like 30 seconds. At the end of the day I'm sort of on the fence about whether this is actually a problem, though I very much understand the frustration of having a class that has good abilities that are lacking elsewhere basically locked off to you due to your roleplay. It becomes a question of if it is worth compromising your roleplay to grab a class that you want to play.
    The last bit of this reply is what has me the most concerned. No one should be placed in that position, especially with the decision to go into a subrace that gates roleplay, quests, and other interactions based on being vampire.

    I accept and understand the divorce between Praenamon and vampire would be difficult. I also know that from a roleplay perspective Saidenn would never willingly choose to not be alive. While I can play with the roleplay of learning new disciplines with Indorani, Syssin, maybe even Teradrim since undeath is not required now, Praenamon is more, and also gates our primary entrenched breaker (insert commentary about classleads here).

    When talking about this, it would be akin to Luminary being gated behind Duamvi. And then that Duamvi being locked out of certain quests, taking damage at night, and the derision of living people that Bloodloch got harassed for seven or so years ago when Yeleni were told to leave or die and get enemied, and no one enjoyed that.

    Don't gate content please, especially content that some of us would be very interested in spending monies upon if we could justify it within our roleplay.
    TetchtaNaosRijettaKanivara
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    It's worth pointing out that many classes have RP strings attached (Indorani, Luminaries, Zealot, Teradrim, Carnifex being good examples) and it would be not-great to try and have this convo and act like classes exist in a lore vacuum. It's just that the specific RP and mechanical strings attached to Praenomen are particularly restrictive, and I think highlighting what makes them an egregious example is probably better than trying to say that no classes limit RP (because most of them do in some way or another).

    XavinNaosRijettaAyuna
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean. Every class has RP strings. Vampires aren't automatically enemied to Enorian or Duiran or even enemied just for entering those areas, as far as I know. But I can't imagine a situation where a vampire or undead is going to be welcomed with open arms in either of those places considering the roleplay behind those states and the roleplay of those organizations. We already have, afaik, quests and content that get gated behind membership in orgs and the like. I'm not sure that that will ever go away.

    Like I said before, I fully expect there to end up being a class gated behind Duamvi that amplifies the negatives that Duamvi experience. And there is already stigma against being Duamvi on the Spirit tether, especially in Duiran.

    Ultimately, it would be down to whether or not the admin actually view this as a problem. I very much sympathize with the desire to make use of this class but not be hooked into the roleplay of the vampire state or any potential drama. But as someone who once made extensive use of the vampire classes, I gotta say that I don't think it's strictly as big a deal as it is being made out to be. That said, maybe that's because of how long it's been.

    I'm not trying to say you guys are wrong or anything like that. But I think we need to be realistic about expectations.

    NaosRijetta
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭
    Xavin said:

    I mean. Every class has RP strings. Vampires aren't automatically enemied to Enorian or Duiran or even enemied just for entering those areas, as far as I know.

    Yes... yes they are. Most people right out of the gate, if they choose Bloodloch are enemied by Enorian/Duiran after getting some sort of 'warning' tell to not going into Enorian. At least that's what I've been hearing. If this has changed recently, I would really like to know.

    Blanket enemy statuses were supposed to go away back in 2017.


    LinXavinRhineNaro
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    I don't think that's happening Rhy.

    Edit: that said, undead ARE enemied to Enorian if they enter multiple times after warnings. You can (rarely) get sanction to enter under, like, strict supervision tho.

    RijettaCallidora
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, not that's not happening and hasn't been happening for years.

    Rijetta
  • StineStine Member Posts: 181 ✭✭✭
    Rhyot said:

    Xavin said:

    I mean. Every class has RP strings. Vampires aren't automatically enemied to Enorian or Duiran or even enemied just for entering those areas, as far as I know.

    Yes... yes they are. Most people right out of the gate, if they choose Bloodloch are enemied by Enorian/Duiran after getting some sort of 'warning' tell to not going into Enorian. At least that's what I've been hearing. If this has changed recently, I would really like to know.

    Blanket enemy statuses were supposed to go away back in 2017.
    If you could please give me 1 example that would be great. I've been playing in Duiran since 2017 and haven't seen it happen once.
    RijettaXavin
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What happens when you go rogue as Praenomen?
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
    Haven said:

    What happens when you go rogue as Praenomen?

    You lose the ability to sire, and your access to Bloodstones for rituals is diminished. Someone else will have to weigh in on what the bloodline stuff actually does ('cause I don't know if it does anything, used to actually make a difference if you were a Count vs Arch Duke).

  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭
    Haven said:

    What happens when you go rogue as Praenomen?

    That depends on the content, honestly.

    If you are a Praenomen Rogue that refuses the sanction or is denied the sanction, the Dominion looks down upon as if you're a pox or a virus and insult you.

    If you are a Praenomen Rogue with a sanction, then the Dominion welcomes you with open arms.


    As far as mechanics goes, absolutely unicorns nothing. Rhyot has spent most of his existence as a Praenomen Rogue.
    Stine said:



    If you could please give me 1 example that would be great. I've been playing in Duiran since 2017 and haven't seen it happen once.

    Ayuna was warping around for minors, warped into Duiran and was immediately enemied for it under the context of "spying/wormholing" even though the only class she had at the time was Praenomen.


    NaosCallidora
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 147 ✭✭✭
    To the folks asking how to separate it from the subrace,

    Call it blood magic, make it a class that emulates the natural abilities of vampires through magic, blood sorcery, and mental training. Remove access to sire/childe stuff if no subrace, maybe things like masquerade, wolfform, etc.

    More than happy to lose access even to things like Entomb (a huge benefit to prae atm) and have those as pure subrace abilities. That's fine.

    Let me be the Blood Knight.
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    ArdentRhyotTetchtaIazamat
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭
    Rijetta said:

    To the folks asking how to separate it from the subrace,

    Call it blood magic, make it a class that emulates the natural abilities of vampires through magic, blood sorcery, and mental training. Remove access to sire/childe stuff if no subrace, maybe things like masquerade, wolfform, etc.

    More than happy to lose access even to things like Entomb (a huge benefit to prae atm) and have those as pure subrace abilities. That's fine.

    Let me be the Blood Knight.

    Sooooooooooo...... Bloodborn??


    RijettaArdent
  • ArdentArdent Member Posts: 49 ✭✭
    Hemomancer.
    RhyotAyuna
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I want to preface this with me not actually being against the idea.

    That said, to play devil's advocate, the complaint largely seems to stem from the stigma and reputation of the class and the associated Dominion rather than the actual mechanics of the class. While making Praenomen into a Blood Mage class and divorcing vampirism wouldn't be a far or even terrible stretch of lore, I have to wonder if it's really worth the time and resources?

    If being outside the Dominion doesn't really do anything mechanically and the main repercussions are roleplay... does that warrant a class rework? It'd definitely be cool but the mood surrounding the class feels very... "flavor of the month"y to me for a lack of a better term. It wasn't even that long ago when vampires were every where. What's suddenly changed?
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    RijettaSarita
  • EhtiasEhtias Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭
    I can slash someone with a sword and also whisper weird unicorns at the same time.
  • RebraRebra Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
    I don't usually post on forums in these matters, because it usually a good way of getting a target painted on my back, but as thus far no guilded consanguine have yet said anything, I will add my perspective.

    @Haven, for my character, a lot of the stigma and ill treatment for being a vampire and being of the Dominion has come from the shadow tether itself, even Bloodloch itself. It makes perfect sense that someone from the other tether would take offense at a character being a vampire, and I honestly have no issue there, but getting the same abuse IC, and sometimes OOC, from one's own tether and one's own organisation has been pretty hard to bear, and has been ongoing for a while now - months to years. There's only so much people can take.

    But I argue that the solution to people being shitty to one another is not to create a new, un-stigmatized class so that the people who were previously stigmatized can continue to be stigmatized. I argue that maybe the solution is that people maybe learn what's changed both mechanically and RP-wise, not depend on decades old pre-conceptions on what vampires are, maybe actually talk to the people who are actually vampires and actually in the Dominion, and treat each other slightly better, if not IC, at least OOC. And not rely on hearsay and old prejudices.

    I'm not opposed to there being such a new class. But it doesn't affect what some vampires, particularly those in the Dominion, are subjected to, day in and day out. And it's getting old.
    Some lovely images of Rebra by @Konnorn, Acaisha Buffo, and @Eleanor respectively!

    Rebra chibi
    Rebra
    Callidora and Rebra
    IazamatArdentNaosGalileiHavenXavinTaiyang
  • EhtiasEhtias Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭
    I'm going to be real honest, I've had people outright come here to play. Then quit because of the Dominion, like I've had alts in it before and it's not an overly enjoyable experience. I see little to nothing from either of the guilds within Bloodloch that are not the Carnifex. Be that due to the fact that they are smaller, or the fact that they're more cliquey/inactive i don't really know. Also beating a dead horse, a GM shouldn't automatically get a city leadership position as well. Since the Dominion was reduced to a guild that should have been axed at the same time. I may be biased due to being in the Carnifex, but I've played Aetolia on and off before and neither of the other guilds I tried stuck much like the friends I have come and try to play here.

    TL:DR We've had people come here, like the class but quit because of all the vampire unicorns. Rogue vampires/prae get unicorns on by the Dominion as much as other people unicorns on the Dominion.

    There are some and by some I mean very few vampire players that I've had decent interactions with but the most have either been drama based or something similar to drama.
    ArdentRebraEvelynGalileiSeurimasKanivara
  • EhtiasEhtias Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭
    Tetchta said:

    I don't think go.

    ArdentRijettaRebraGalileiLinXavinTekiasMjoll
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