Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 3.7K All Categories
- 3K The Midnight Age
- 757 Announce posts
- 125 Newbies
- 6 Class Guides
- 804 Harpy's Head Tavern
- 57 Echo Canyon
- 310 Self-Affirmations
- 163 Town Crier
- 135 The Exchange
- 167 Sparring Grounds
- Combat Guides
- 30 Combat Logs
- 188 Idea Box
- 9 Classleads
- 578 Roleplay Logs
- 107 Aetolia Development
- 5 The Void
- 744 Miscellaneous
- 9 Announcements
- 417 OOC Chat
- 217 Tech Talk
- 47 Scripts
Looking for more active discussion? Join our Discord at https://discord.gg/x2s7fY6
Don't bite me, bro! - Vampire vs Praenomen
I've had a few people reach out to ask why I perceive the Praenomen class being gated behind the Vampire subrace as a problem. I thought I might enlighten anyone that's curious, as well as put out a request for other player's input, to gauge whether the logic and reasoning for wanting such a drastic change makes sense.
At its core, nowhere else in the game are players forced to choose between mechanical benefits versus personal roleplay to the degree that the Shadow tether is in regards to the Praenomen class. In a class that arguably boasts some of the most beneficial team-fighting abilities, having the class gated behind a subrace is the exact opposite of what Aetolian combat has strove to become over the past few years; a competitive, interactive scene where classes are often found balanced in relation to the whole of their tether.
This has led Praenomen to gain various, unarguable strengths in terms of utility over the years, where other classes have not:
- AB SANGUIS BIND
- AB MENTIS LURE
- AB MENTIS TRILL
- AB MENTIS DISRUPT
- AB SANGUIS FEAST
These abilities hold an incredible amount of group utility for what is very obviously Aetolia's mainstay; group combat.
I would also like to expand on the roleplay disadvantages I find the Vampire subrace carries. Vampire roleplay is some of the most popular roleplay in the game by all accounts, and has always been an enormous pull to the game's population just by sheer marketing. The Vampire Mud! That being said, Vampire roleplay has also become far and away the most polarizing throughout the entire game. By my own eyes, there does not seem to be an easier way to effectively neuter your chances at roleplay with the opposing tether than to become a Vampire. I have seen them asked to leave cities, I have seen them killed in order to remove them, and I have seen characters willing to completely leave a scene due to the arrival of a Vampire. Now, given the roleplay of both Duiran and Enorian, there's nothing actually wrong with that behavior. What does feel like a particularly rough pill to swallow, however, is having to accept that in exchange for what amounts to a mechanical choice in the realm of competitive combat.
Again, I look forward to input from anyone and everyone, especially the Aetolian administration! There may very well be parts of this that I'm missing, and I welcome all opinions on whether or not this is a genuine concern worth addressing.
At its core, nowhere else in the game are players forced to choose between mechanical benefits versus personal roleplay to the degree that the Shadow tether is in regards to the Praenomen class. In a class that arguably boasts some of the most beneficial team-fighting abilities, having the class gated behind a subrace is the exact opposite of what Aetolian combat has strove to become over the past few years; a competitive, interactive scene where classes are often found balanced in relation to the whole of their tether.
This has led Praenomen to gain various, unarguable strengths in terms of utility over the years, where other classes have not:
- AB SANGUIS BIND
- AB MENTIS LURE
- AB MENTIS TRILL
- AB MENTIS DISRUPT
- AB SANGUIS FEAST
These abilities hold an incredible amount of group utility for what is very obviously Aetolia's mainstay; group combat.
I would also like to expand on the roleplay disadvantages I find the Vampire subrace carries. Vampire roleplay is some of the most popular roleplay in the game by all accounts, and has always been an enormous pull to the game's population just by sheer marketing. The Vampire Mud! That being said, Vampire roleplay has also become far and away the most polarizing throughout the entire game. By my own eyes, there does not seem to be an easier way to effectively neuter your chances at roleplay with the opposing tether than to become a Vampire. I have seen them asked to leave cities, I have seen them killed in order to remove them, and I have seen characters willing to completely leave a scene due to the arrival of a Vampire. Now, given the roleplay of both Duiran and Enorian, there's nothing actually wrong with that behavior. What does feel like a particularly rough pill to swallow, however, is having to accept that in exchange for what amounts to a mechanical choice in the realm of competitive combat.
Again, I look forward to input from anyone and everyone, especially the Aetolian administration! There may very well be parts of this that I'm missing, and I welcome all opinions on whether or not this is a genuine concern worth addressing.
5
Comments
My initial thoughts are: does The Dominion become the Praenomen Guild That Just So Happens To Have a History Tied To Vampirism? What would vampless Praenomen look like?
This whole situation is a pretty curious side effect of the multiclass system. I know on the Spirit side of the game there are at least a small group of characters that have some distaste towards Duamvi, and I would imagine that would extend to the inevitable mirror class that requires its state (likely the vampire mirror, imo), but that's a pipe dream for the time being.
An idea would be to look at the whole suite of abilities that Praenomen get and figure out which ones are explicitly tied to being a vampire. I would argue that if the class can be held and used by non vampires that some of those abilities should be lessened or outright locked for characters who are not vampires. I know that doesn't exactly sound appealing but I'm specifically thinking of things like earthmeld and entomb's sped up death recovery, specifically because spirit anchor reduces death recovery with entomb down to something crazy like 30 seconds.
At the end of the day I'm sort of on the fence about whether this is actually a problem, though I very much understand the frustration of having a class that has good abilities that are lacking elsewhere basically locked off to you due to your roleplay. It becomes a question of if it is worth compromising your roleplay to grab a class that you want to play.
Honestly now that I go through the skill list it's really not that much. A lot of it is dependent on what is essentially "blood magic" but I don't think there's anything innately Vampire about that. I do think vamps should maybe get some bonuses to the class though, even if they're minor.
BLOODBORN SAYS, "YOU FKIN WUT M8?!?!"
I accept and understand the divorce between Praenamon and vampire would be difficult. I also know that from a roleplay perspective Saidenn would never willingly choose to not be alive. While I can play with the roleplay of learning new disciplines with Indorani, Syssin, maybe even Teradrim since undeath is not required now, Praenamon is more, and also gates our primary entrenched breaker (insert commentary about classleads here).
When talking about this, it would be akin to Luminary being gated behind Duamvi. And then that Duamvi being locked out of certain quests, taking damage at night, and the derision of living people that Bloodloch got harassed for seven or so years ago when Yeleni were told to leave or die and get enemied, and no one enjoyed that.
Don't gate content please, especially content that some of us would be very interested in spending monies upon if we could justify it within our roleplay.
Like I said before, I fully expect there to end up being a class gated behind Duamvi that amplifies the negatives that Duamvi experience. And there is already stigma against being Duamvi on the Spirit tether, especially in Duiran.
Ultimately, it would be down to whether or not the admin actually view this as a problem. I very much sympathize with the desire to make use of this class but not be hooked into the roleplay of the vampire state or any potential drama. But as someone who once made extensive use of the vampire classes, I gotta say that I don't think it's strictly as big a deal as it is being made out to be. That said, maybe that's because of how long it's been.
I'm not trying to say you guys are wrong or anything like that. But I think we need to be realistic about expectations.
Blanket enemy statuses were supposed to go away back in 2017.
Edit: that said, undead ARE enemied to Enorian if they enter multiple times after warnings. You can (rarely) get sanction to enter under, like, strict supervision tho.
This technically isn't "autoenemy" as my character is not immediately enemied to the city for being undead. However, it essentially functions the same as autoenemy, with the difference being that players will attack and kill me for being undead instead of guards doing it for being an enemy (because of being undead). You can try to argue that semantically or mechanically they are not the same if you'd like, but the basic function of 'if you enter the city you die' still exists.
Anyway this is moderately off topic, and I'd rather talk about Praenomen being made available to more people anyway.
If the point of mirror classes is to make all the classes widely available to everyone that plays the game, then it is pretty clear that making Praenomen more available to everyone on Shadow very much falls in line with this approach towards the game's classes.
People who want to play a vampire can play a vampire. People who want to play the Praenomen class should be able to play the Praenomen class. The two do not need to be linked.
And from a money making point of view (which has already been noted as at least one reason behind why mirror classes are being done), having people buy credits to get a new class will probably make the game more money. It's probably not a good idea to have people feel limited in that choice due to rp/mechanic restrictions, and then not spend that money.
If you are a Praenomen Rogue that refuses the sanction or is denied the sanction, the Dominion looks down upon as if you're a pox or a virus and insult you.
If you are a Praenomen Rogue with a sanction, then the Dominion welcomes you with open arms.
As far as mechanics goes, absolutely fucking nothing. Rhyot has spent most of his existence as a Praenomen Rogue. Ayuna was warping around for minors, warped into Duiran and was immediately enemied for it under the context of "spying/wormholing" even though the only class she had at the time was Praenomen.
I guess something to consider is, Praenomen class being gated behind a subrace (Vampire) would essentially be the same as trying to gate something like Luminary behind a subrace. In the case of this argument, Spirit tether need/want someone with Luminary class for their overall group makeup when it comes to PvP. Shadow tether want/need to be able to pick up Praenomen without jeopardizing their RP. You shouldn't have to pick your character's storyline, over mechanics. They should be one and the same.
If you want to be a vampire, and enjoy that facet of RP and what comes with it, then cool! If you don't want to, then also cool! But gating a whole class that group combat is balanced around shouldn't be a thing.
I'd say the same if/when mirrors come out and Spirit have their own gated class. Freedom in RP is important, but you shouldn't have to choose combat viability over RP. Or the reverse.
Call it blood magic, make it a class that emulates the natural abilities of vampires through magic, blood sorcery, and mental training. Remove access to sire/childe stuff if no subrace, maybe things like masquerade, wolfform, etc.
More than happy to lose access even to things like Entomb (a huge benefit to prae atm) and have those as pure subrace abilities. That's fine.
Let me be the Blood Knight.
That said, to play devil's advocate, the complaint largely seems to stem from the stigma and reputation of the class and the associated Dominion rather than the actual mechanics of the class. While making Praenomen into a Blood Mage class and divorcing vampirism wouldn't be a far or even terrible stretch of lore, I have to wonder if it's really worth the time and resources?
If being outside the Dominion doesn't really do anything mechanically and the main repercussions are roleplay... does that warrant a class rework? It'd definitely be cool but the mood surrounding the class feels very... "flavor of the month"y to me for a lack of a better term. It wasn't even that long ago when vampires were every where. What's suddenly changed?
Oh, and as for the other part of your question: All the PKing vampires quit the Dominion after learning to utterly hate being forced to be in it and deal with it. QUIT DOMINION was added as an option about a week or two after the last major pking vampire (me) quit. Then there was a very brief revival and then it died again. Now the Dominion is a guild.
We never stopped liking or wanting the class. Just, now we're REALLY feeling its absence, since it is the intended counter to Luminary and gods, there are a lot of luminaries now.
@Haven, for my character, a lot of the stigma and ill treatment for being a vampire and being of the Dominion has come from the shadow tether itself, even Bloodloch itself. It makes perfect sense that someone from the other tether would take offense at a character being a vampire, and I honestly have no issue there, but getting the same abuse IC, and sometimes OOC, from one's own tether and one's own organisation has been pretty hard to bear, and has been ongoing for a while now - months to years. There's only so much people can take.
But I argue that the solution to people being shitty to one another is not to create a new, un-stigmatized class so that the people who were previously stigmatized can continue to be stigmatized. I argue that maybe the solution is that people maybe learn what's changed both mechanically and RP-wise, not depend on decades old pre-conceptions on what vampires are, maybe actually talk to the people who are actually vampires and actually in the Dominion, and treat each other slightly better, if not IC, at least OOC. And not rely on hearsay and old prejudices.
I'm not opposed to there being such a new class. But it doesn't affect what some vampires, particularly those in the Dominion, are subjected to, day in and day out. And it's getting old.
TL:DR We've had people come here, like the class but quit because of all the vampire shit. Rogue vampires/prae get shit on by the Dominion as much as other people shit on the Dominion.
There are some and by some I mean very few vampire players that I've had decent interactions with but the most have either been drama based or something similar to drama.