Winter 2014 Liaison Round Discussion

Oleis

As detailed in Announce post 2199, we're starting up the discussion and formulation of Liaison posts yet again. I won't be enabling submission for about a week and you'll have until the end of the calendar year to get everything taken care of, so use this time to collaborate and make things great!

PS if you get sassy and derail this thread I'm gonna drop you like it's hot. Please don't turn this into a unicornsfest.

Daskalos

Alright, so I guess I'll start things off. The Luminary class is designed, at present, to pressure afflictions to set up overwhelms to setup absolve. The problem with this is that overwhelm requires prone, usually through transfixion. The problem with -that- is that none of the afflcitions we give are terribly life threatening save paralysis, which we can't give in conjunction with blindness - place bayberry at the top of your healing chart and you'll never be overwhelmed by a Luminary.  

The class is also very, very momentum based in that if you miss a round due to an active hinder, it is essentially a hard reset. I've been trying to think of ways to improve overwhelm, and thus far, the best I have come up with is removing the prone requirement and taking it more in the direction of Bloodborn MindBurrow to setup absolve, where you layer afflictions on to get stronger overwhelms thus creating a larger chance at absolve. In tradeoff for this. I have the formula I thought up at home and can (and will) post it when I get there in a few hours, but basically if you try to 'open' with an overwhelm, you end up doing about 350 damage on 4 seconds eq. However, if you do it with, say, 5 afflictions on a target, it multiplies up (added enhancements such as mana damage, or bleeding damage, or whatever) and gets faster (to a hard cap). Maybe even have a ridiculous 'instakill' option so that if someone has, say, 10 afflictions on them they're SOL.

 

Edited to add formula:

 

Base Damage:

Buckler - 100
Cavalry - 150

Banded - 200

Kite - 250

Tower - 300

 

Base Speed: 4 sec balance (for buckler, increasing by .25 per shield type). Each affliction over 2 increases it by .25 to a 'max' speed of 2 seconds flat.

 

(SHIELDTYPE )*(numbers_of_affs)+250 

 

Under this scenario, the worst damage you would face, on 5 second balance, is 550 if done as an opener. Note, this is the tradeoff for removing the prone req.

 

Now, we have modifying affects. Once you hit certain affliction level threshholds, these take affect:

 

2 Afflictions - Overwhelm now bypasses aura of rebounding

3 Afflictions - Add 2 seconds of blackout, stun

4 Afflictions - Add 500 mana damage

5 Afflictions - All previous attacks doubled (so now you're looking at, with 5 afflictions, at mos, 1000 mana damage, 4 seconds of blackout, a short stun, and 3500ish damage on about 3.75 second balance

6 Afflictions - Overwhelm bypasses shield

7 Afflictions - Base Damage (the +250) increased to +1000

8 Afflictions - Overwhelm will additionally strip a defense.

9 Afflictions - Victims balance\eq are upset for 3 seconds.

10 Afflictions - Damage switched to unblockable.

 

Note, this is all raw damage, so this would be reduced by armor.

 

I would also suggest that if this were passed, absolve be lowered to 33% to match annihilate.

Moirean

What happened to the old reports? Doesn't seem to be an archived option anymore?

Seir

While I can't create a report for it, I'd like to put forward the idea that Aetolia completely does away with the archaic mechanic of willpower and endurance. Presently, they act only as a needless limiter for bashing or as a way of breaking stalemates between drawn out fights, which I think is a pretty piss poor way of handling stalemates. There are no real offenses that hinge around draining the two and I really think that the state of the game will be a lot better for combat and bashers alike with their removal. It really has no place these days.

Oleis

Moirean said:

What happened to the old reports? Doesn't seem to be an archived option anymore?

I can resurrect your unsubmitted/archived ones if you like.

Toz

End/wp serve as important limiting factors, @Seir. You can't just spam blackout/kai cripple for forever, for instance. Not without investing in grimstims. It also limits your ability to use certain abilities over and over again - Teradrim's hammer comes to mind (hammer bashing so strong though).

Arbre

Oleis said:

PS if you get sassy and derail this thread I'm gonna drop you like it's hot. Please don't turn this into a unicornsfest.

Now it's stuck in my head, thanks a lot, @Oleis. :<

Valdus

Willpower and endurance will definitely be staying. Our trend with the last few releases has been to turn endurance/willpower into pools that require you to carefully pick and select defenses and setups based on the pool you can sustain - Shaman and Teradrim are good examples of this, since their mileage can vary from 'eternally sustaining' to '1 bullseye per minute' depending on how conservative you are in your choices.

Saybre

So here's my reports that I haven't created. (Because I'm out of my 6 reports already!!)

Showed these to Ezalor already, and I believe he'll be assisting with the Forging ones. Otherwise other Liaisons, help a brother out!

Lets see if I can figure Spoiler out..
[spoiler]

Rips + Devour

LIAISON NEW FERALITY RIPS + DEVOUR

LIAISON # PROBLEM

Problem:

Beyond team combat (Quarter)/(Packhowls), Lycans have effectively 2 means of kill routes. 1) Sheer damage - This is near impossible against a competent curer unless the Lycan is VERY heavily outfitted in artifacts and the opponent is not. 2) Devour, the Lycan instant-kill requiring all 3 Rips to be on the target. Comparatively to other momentum strategies, Lycan Rips are among the more difficult to achieve beyond GroinRip via Thighlock. Armpitlock (Spleenrip) and NeckLock(Throatrip) both require the opponent to be prone on top of the targetted limbs to be damaged to L3. Groinrip is easier to pull off, as it is a focus on legs to be destroyed, so proning is part of its very route. Spleenrip and Throatrip compound the problem further, so that once the required L3 is achieved, the target also has to become prone long enough for the Lycan to regain balance and achieve a jawlock, leaving afflictions such as paralysis as a hinderer, but not enough of a hinder to perfect it. Beyond a lucky howl-tick, or a fighter that lacks parry in any fashion, this becomes increasingly difficult, and can extend a fight into a long standing series of breaks and heals over and over until the opponent either breaks ground or runs out of salves.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 1

Solution #1

Due to their physical location on the target’s body, Armpitlock (Arms/torso) and NeckLock (Head) it is not out of the question that the Lycan could leap forward to encase his/her jaws around the target location and begin the rip process. In order to balance the ease of such, remove the required prone flag, but SIGNIFICANTLY lessen the damage done by the rip itself (Hugely compared to the damage performed by GroinRip). Acting more as a point to build towards the Devour kill. In doing so, remove the ability to utilize either ArmpitLock or NeckLock for use in QUARTER, leaving it to be only fired upon when THIGHLOCK is achieved. This will keep it balanced in a 1v1 setting and in team fights, while keeping Quarter from becoming even easier than its present state.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 2

Solution #2

Alternative incorporating Solution #1, for Armpit lock, instead of prone flag, require another of the valid limbs (left arm/torso/right arm) to be at a L1 break in addition to the required L3 of one of the others. For NeckLock as it is only focused on head, further reduce the damage caused by the rip, perhaps only eliciting a large bleed.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 3

Solution #3

Incorporate a new claw attack, similar to NUMBING empowerment in Bladefire, however have it cause the target to fall to the ground after a short delay. (2-3 seconds depending on current speeds). Ability: TENDON <tar> <left/right>. This would do minimal damage, and no specific limb damage towards WOUNDS but to act as a timed prone.

SpleenRip

LIAISON # PROBLEM

Problem:

‘While they are suffering from this, their resistance to poisons via the Antidotes skillset is effectively halved’ - This seems to be a rather odd addition to the affliction given by SpleenRip, haemophilia is very helpful for Lycan offense, but the reduction of resistance to poisons is rather odd, unless there was intention for lycan claws to be able to be infected and do poison damage instead of cutting/blunt.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 1

Solution #1

INFECT CLAWS - The Lycanthrope hacks up the rotting meat from a previous kill onto his claws, rubbing it into dirt and filth surrounding. This causes claw attacks that deal cutting damage (Elongated claws) to deal 15% of the damage as Poison damage. Chance of afflicting vomiting is very low, but possible.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 2

Solution #2

Remove the Halving of poison resistance and if Report #(Ripsreport) is approved, nothing else will be necessary beyond removal.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 3

Solution #3

If Report#(RipsReport) is denied, Cause instead a chance for parry to fail, as the ripped wound (located around torso/arms) causes such severe pain, that quick movements to deflect strikes is weakened.

ThroatRip

LIAISON # PROBLEM

Problem:

‘While they are suffering from this, any increased health due to their Fitness will be effectively halved’ - Not certain whether this is reflecting to reduce the resistance to asphyxiation (Fitness) or Endurance recovery, as Fitness itself does not grant additional health. Otherwise, is an odd addition to the rip causing the target to become effectively mute.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 1

Solution #1

While their throat is recovering from the Rip, the target will have a small constant of bleeding gushing from their open wound.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 2

Solution #2

Remove the ‘fitness halve of health’ and if Report #(Ripsreport) is approved, nothing else will be necessary beyond removal.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 3

Solution #3

If Report#(RipsReport) is denied, cause instead for the target to become afflicted with dizziness once every 15 seconds, the blood loss from the large wound causing the target to become woozy and fall over.

Ferality - Combo

LIAISON # PROBLEM

Problem:

Ferality Combo allows you to do a full attack in one command, i.e. two claws, instead of running two commands, similar to the Tekura equivalent. Problem is that it ISN’T enough like Tekura combo. Example: Tekura combo allows: COMBO target snk left hfp right hfp left - I.e. each attack can be targetted to whichever limb you want. Ferality version: COMBO target rend rend (left/right) this forces to dedicate the combo to -one- side. Rather than being able to spread it out, such as COMBO SAYBRE HAMSTRING LEFT HAMSTRING RIGHT.

LIAISON # SOLUTION 1

Solution #1:

Fix it to be: COMBO <target> <claw> <left/right> <claw> <left/right> If the claw attack is already a specific target (i.e. torso/head) then the left/right is ignored.

Forging - Apprentice

Problem

Currently, when apprenticed in Blades/Bludgeon/Thrown, there is no way to know -WHICH- you are currently trained in should you forget. Even if you go th Thrummal and pay to retrain in the one you think you are in (and very well may be) he’ll take your gold regardless and re-train you.

Solution #1

Add an ability to see what you are trained in, FORGING SHOW or the like to do so. Or an addendum to the help file to ask Thrummal FORGING REFRESHER to which he gives a quick spiel about your chosen training.

Forging - Armaments

Problem:

More crafting but non-mechanic disrupting options would help increase the creative/profiteering aspects of Forging.

Solution 1

Helms were recently added, which has been incredibly fun and exciting for many, to add onto this, add 2 more creations, that would be able to be incorporated stylistically into armor sets, without taking away the base description of most. Namely - Greaves (Armored Boots) and Gauntlets (Armored Gloves)

Solution 2

In addition to Solution #1, add in WEAR/REMOVE messages to ALL armor, mechanical (Cutting/Blunt protection) as well as the crafting kind (Helms/Plates/Greaves). The necessity to see standardized wear/removal of armor in combat is no longer an issue due to customization of armor types as it is. Namely the only abilities to do so are with FORCE, and the wearer themselves can easily contradict this by triggering off the force command to re-wear their gear.[/spoiler]

Arbre

I'm not sure how much I agree or disagree with your reports, however I do want to note that bleed kills are a valid lycan offense, even without a spleenrip.

With the addition of the limb damage notifications, however, EVERYONE now has a PERFECT pre-restorer, and it's a lot harder to do limb damage.

Teani

I agree with Arbre that the prerestore has made it very difficult to get ahead on the limb damage.

As for @Saybre's reports, I really like the reports, especially the Spleenrip (solution #3) and the Throatrip. 

Edited cause I'm something of a noob in certain things.

Ezalor

I don't have the best grasp of Lycan combat, but I was always under the impression that prerestore actually helps Lycans get ahead. Their limb damage is very insignificant compared to what other classes output, however the nature of the class being that they naturally give mending breaks which they can escalate into restoration breaks off the mending breaks rather than off pure limb damage. Hence when someone prerestores and throws themselves off salve balance for 4s (or whatever the timer is now) you are able to quickly get a mending break then escalate it to a restoration break.

Azton

Ezalor said:

I don't have the best grasp of Lycan combat, but I was always under the impression that prerestore actually helps Lycans get ahead. Their limb damage is very insignificant compared to what other classes output, however the nature of the class being that they naturally give mending breaks which they can escalate into restoration breaks off the mending breaks rather than off pure limb damage. Hence when someone prerestores and throws themselves off salve balance for 4s (or whatever the timer is now) you are able to quickly get a mending break then escalate it to a restoration break.

As I said in another post the only thing wrong with the lycan combat is, somehow with the new statpack change it has gotten too slow to get a break now.. I tested it with someone and I rend both the person arms and before I even got balance back the person had successfully applied mending to both arms to cure up.. so putting howls into the mix the person can cure up both arms (with mending) and cure said howls!  It only works toward newbies now....

What you should really do i put rend/hamstring balance back to like 2.4/2.3 maybe as at moment at 2.5 you cant get no where..... the 2.5 is with enhance balance!

Valdus

Lycanthropes have never been able to beat salve balance with rend/hamstring alone. However, rend and hamstring do limb damage as well, meaning to cure the mending breaks, you have to forego prerestoration, or vice versa. Ezalor's assessment is pretty much spot on.

Belgarion

This is my attempt to give ascendril the ability to do combat without using retardation. It is meant to be used Instead of retardation, for the effects not to be able to be used in your own retardation, and it has both counter play(ents can be dealt with, mage can be hindered during windows) and an enforced gap between using this stuff, and embedding retardation, so that any ramping of power pre-retardation will have a lessened/no effect when/if you do change gears and go for retardation.

Originally a much stronger set, but was meant to replace retardation entirely. At this time, that option was looked at unfavourably by enough, if only due to the extent of changes that would be needed.

Without further ado, my first draft.
Please, any and all feedback is welcome, would love to polish this to a more usable/refined report with feedback suggestions
Report #1453
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Submitted by: Belgarion      Status      : Unsubmitted
Skillset    : Elemancy       Skillname   : Elementalinfusion
Creation Date:  2013/12/08 23:18:07
Submitted Date:
[ ]Archive
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Problem:
The current Ascendril combat scheme is land wide known to be centered on being in retardation for any sort of top tier combat, the class being centered around how powerful they are in such an atmosphere. Playing in retardation is almost like another set of rules, and to some people, the young, the beginners, the ability to harness the advantages of such a power is out of the grasp, thusly creating a large disparity in the ability to learn combat as a mage. To remedy this, I have couple of reports that are meant to work together to create a method of combat for mages that does not rely on retardation, while removing the increase of power while in retardation, and giving a short gap between being able to use one of these improved powers, and embed retardation. This is not meant to be a new better way to get a mage to ramp up, and end up in retardation, though to Some extent, it can be, but I'm hoping that a 10 second buffer after last use of one of these new options and embedding to reduce that effect of any upgrades. This would start with the current skill, ElementalInfusion, which would be a defense that an Ascendril could put up. It would create a link between them and their two elementals, stabilizing their existance on the plane, and giving you a second power to replenish the health of one or the other. It would also give their individual elementals a second state, where when they hit a person, it would enable a window of a few seconds, in which the Ascendril would be able to use a skill tentatively named Cantrips to be created from a second report, while off eq. These would add secondary small current spells, or possibly other new effects.
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Solution #1:
Each entity is "freeloaded" with the next proper cantrip you want to use, and when the entity hits, if you hit within the "window" with a direct Ascendril spell, the cantrip that is loaded goes off.
Solution #2:
when one of the entities hits a target that would put a debuff on the target, for the appropriate amount of time, and when a mage spell hit a target who had that debuff on them, it would give a message/buff that would allow the mage to use one of their appropriate cantrips.
Solution #3:
these windows would give the mage a defense, that could be used at a future time, specifically against that person. Couldn't stack, can't refresh again within 2 seconds, so if you can only save it for a limited time, and can't put two of them That close together.
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Report #1454
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Submitted by: Belgarion      Status      : Unsubmitted
Skillset    : Elemancy       Skillname   : Cantrip
Creation Date:  2013/12/08 23:25:16
Submitted Date:
[ ]Archive
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Problem:
Related to report 1453, ElementalInfusion. Cantrips would be two sets, minor and major cantrips, that could be cast during the window gained from ElementalInfusion. You'd have a window openned by the efreeti, which hits every 5 seconds, and the sprite which hits on a 12 second timer. You could only use minor cantrips off of the efreeti window, and only major for the sprite window.
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Solution #1:
Minor Cantrips add .5 eq, Major Cantrips add 1 seconds. Minor cantrips would be degrade, gorge, and a new spell called quickening or some such, that would speed up your next spell by .5 seconds. Neither of these are super powerful effects from Ascendril, and the degrade can't be used before the attack, so it can't be used to strip shield and attack. Major cantrip effects would include first an effect that would allow the mage to see what afflictions a target is getting from plague vibe and aquasphere, then an effect that says if target has dizziness/shyness/stupidity, they gain impatience, another for if they have dementia/hallucinations/confusion, that gives hypersomnia, or you can just use the frostspike spell as a major cantrip.
Solution #2:
have minor cantrips be for spells 3 seconds or faster, and it gives you the second spell for 1/3 cast time, and major cantrips would be spells between 3 and 5 seconds, but it wouldn't actually cast the second spell right then, even though it would add the time immediately, it would cast the second spell 5 seconds in the future. Some spell restrictions would certainly apply.
Solution #3:
5 minor cantrips, all debuffs that stack up to a certain maximu, last 12 seconds but refresh upon a new stack. 5% stacking audit debuff to the 4 different staffcast damage types, and another one that is 3% increase to your herb balance and one for salve balance. You could technically get 2 stacks going at once, if you were able to use every other efreeti window to its fullest, but most likely it'd be smarter to just ensure 1 stack sticks, cause if you mess up on two stacks, you'll lose half or all your progress. Major Cantrips would be making aquasphere show what it gives, make aquasphere smart afflict, make aquasphere do double damage, and if waterbreathing enchant is still available at all, nullifying it, each effect lasting 26 seconds. This would allow you to basically get 2 of them running at the same time, after 2 rounds of sprite, Technically 3 for 2 seconds, but this allows 2 seconds to keep them both up. This gives the mage a choice of ramping for a damage kill thru using the right audit debuffs and double damage aquasphere, or more aff pressure with slower herb balance debuff, and the the aff based aquasphere cantrips.

Saybre

Additional thing for Lycans, but maybe not necessarily needing of a Liaison Report (Maybe I'm wrong.?)

Packhowls

Syntax: PACKHOWL <howl>

In combination with other howlers in your pack, you can howl across an
area, bringing afflictions onto your enemies, depending on your
affiliation.

There are a few howls that you cannot howl across an area.

There is no indication as to WHICH howls fall under potential Packhowls - An asterisk next to howls applicable to packhowls would be AWESOME. Also, is it specifically only going to work with pack members, or just lycan allies? In testing it seems unclear. An update to the helpfile and/or the asterisks to denote packhowls would be super helpful.

If this just needs a 'Pester @oleis and offer hugs and cookies' I can certainly do so, but several of my pack members would -love- this small change.

Xiuhcoatl

@Ezalor the other part of it was with 2 salve based howls you put tons of pressure on even their short salve balance. The problem is going to be honestly the gaps made by the increased balance in regards to secondary/passive curing. That assement needs a lot of real world testing, and with the addition of momentary slows downs now having a larger affect due to longer balances. Also with the need to get around parries to get hits in, this puts a much bigger emphasis on actually landing blows.

So while the actual change to curing and lycan offense wasn't that much. When you start to factor in current day defensive measures at the player/client, you're looking at a much different ball game. With intelligent parrying now, higher dodge rating, and the ability to hinder more, you're looking at a different sum of the parts for lycan offense. If a system was able to predict where a lycan was about to hit, even 40% of the time, lycan offense would be next to impossible. That's kinda the breaking point, and honestly it isn't that hard to do. However, that's a topic for two different threads. Just wanted to fill in the blanks. 

Edit: What is on topic is that THOSE CHANGES ARE GOING TO AFFECT WHAT IS VIABLE for affliction based offense changes as well as damage buffs/nerfs. The problem is there hasn't been a major testing period, I can go make a unicornhole of myself at NoT for quick evaluations by baiting fights. However, unless they're make a killing zone where you just respawn and are constantly pitted in a 1v1 against every class' best for 3 days, formula evaluations~= real world evaluations. I don't want to change my simulations project at the end of the term to be simulating Aetolian combat to allow for quick evaluations either, because it's not going to be quick at all to set up. In sum, this better be 3 months of open liaison reports kinda deal.

Arbre

Saybre said:

Also, is it specifically only going to work with pack members, or just lycan allies?

Neither.  Sanosuke's packhowled with me before.  I surely don't have him allied and he's not even the same lycan as me.

Ilyon

@Belgarion - the cantrip stuff certainly looks like a cool concept. My main worry there would be is that it feels kind of needlessly complicated - why not simply let the mage cast the cantrips directly on a separate balance, or something along those lines, instead of all that entity empowering stuff?

On the actual effects, what would the intended purpose of these be? More focused afflicting is all nice, but mages aren't really an affliction class, so I'm not really sure why they would want to be using the effects as proposed.

All in all, it's definitely an approach worth pursuing, I just think that it needs more refining.

Toz

Can we get blackout skills overall looked at? Put a hard timer on them or something - blackout is massively useful now because it stops you from tracking your own aff output, while they're free to go about their day easily. With a lot of their own moves hidden. So really, it's this massively strong skill that can get spammed a TON by the few classes that can give it, while the ones who can't get massively screwed over by it. Put a hard cooldown on people using blackout or something?

Ezalor

Yeah blackout is really annoying.

Moirean

It's not really ideal and doesn't seem like we need to have the attacks themselves blocked, considering that discernment and balance stuff shows (if you enable that config for even more spamminess, I personally don't like using it and don't really want to have to just because of blackout). Why not just have that stuff show, given how spotty it is already, showing half the stuff (ie you see the config'd def gains line like shield and config'd curing, but you don't see the default messages) instead of making it into a coding nightmare?

Added report 1473, in any case. If there are other solutions you prefer, lemme know.

Oleis

Technically, the fact that those generic messages show is a huge oversight. You'll notice that combat messages don't (or at least shouldn't) display in blackout. From a fun and practicality standpoint.. screw blackout.

Daskalos

Ilyon said:

@Belgarion - the cantrip stuff certainly looks like a cool concept. My main worry there would be is that it feels kind of needlessly complicated - why not simply let the mage cast the cantrips directly on a separate balance, or something along those lines, instead of all that entity empowering stuff?

On the actual effects, what would the intended purpose of these be? More focused afflicting is all nice, but mages aren't really an affliction class, so I'm not really sure why they would want to be using the effects as proposed.

All in all, it's definitely an approach worth pursuing, I just think that it needs more refining.

In some testing with Belgarion, he's been able to afflict pretty fast using aquasphere and his various attacks in conjunction with frostspike, mainly because vibes -far- outpace healing now. I blinked and had something like 8 afflictions on me when we were playing around with it. I think his goal with cantrips is to hit certain pre-reqs to  drop their audit, similar to the way Shaman can kill audits with stormtouched, which would greatly increase the mages damage output, and thus, their ability to finish. The idea sort of evolved out of 'everyone hates retardation, how to change mages so retardation can be removed'. I swear, I think Xiuhcoatl is the only person that likes it.

Xavin

There's definitely going to be some attention directed towards mages this round. We've been talking about trying to come up with mechanics that just won't function in retardation or function to a lesser degree in retardation.

That said, I'm also trying to come up with a way to retool watersprite and aquasphere so that they're not so...infuriating. Seriously, I can't stand them as they currently are

Xiuhcoatl

Daskalos said:

Ilyon said:

@Belgarion - the cantrip stuff certainly looks like a cool concept. My main worry there would be is that it feels kind of needlessly complicated - why not simply let the mage cast the cantrips directly on a separate balance, or something along those lines, instead of all that entity empowering stuff?

On the actual effects, what would the intended purpose of these be? More focused afflicting is all nice, but mages aren't really an affliction class, so I'm not really sure why they would want to be using the effects as proposed.

All in all, it's definitely an approach worth pursuing, I just think that it needs more refining.

In some testing with Belgarion, he's been able to afflict pretty fast using aquasphere and his various attacks in conjunction with frostspike, mainly because vibes -far- outpace healing now. I blinked and had something like 8 afflictions on me when we were playing around with it. I think his goal with cantrips is to hit certain pre-reqs to  drop their audit, similar to the way Shaman can kill audits with stormtouched, which would greatly increase the mages damage output, and thus, their ability to finish. The idea sort of evolved out of 'everyone hates retardation, how to change mages so retardation can be removed'. I swear, I think Xiuhcoatl is the only person that likes it.

I don't know why you wouldn't if you had Magi, Carnifex, Indorani, and Lycanthrope as your four classes. Out of all of those, only in Magi can I sit down and actually play the class with a decent expectation to do well in combat against someone half way competent. In addition to that, it's a completely unique skill that changes how you need to fight, cure, and think about combat. Not to mention it's the only skill that lets Sciomancers have a decent offense. Outside of that, you're left to trying to burst people, which you can't do if they have more defensive artifacts than you OR branding which can't be done if they have a torc of telepathy. Both of these things can be purchased with IRL money to invalidate a class as a combatant threat. So you drop retardation, wreck up systems not prepared for it, and outplay people regardless of how many artifacts they have or how prepared they are. Granted, it allows people to outplay you just as easily. You just need to bet that you're better with your class and PVP than they are. I usually win this bet. Hence, I like retardation. 

Removing Retardation means that BOTH Magi classes are going to need major buffs. So many buffs to balance out their combat, which is horrible outside of it, that it seems easier to do an overhaul than try to re balance it without literally just nerfing it into the ground. 

Xavin

The problem with retardation is just that. It's a bottleneck skill, just like old syssin illusions were. Either your opponent(s) are going to have coded around it and it'll be fairly ineffective, or they'll be completely unprepared and you'll just wreck them. That's not good design and it's why retardation is generally disliked by pretty much everyone.

Daskalos

If it were me, I'd give retardation the quickfoot treatment, and remove it so that we can see how viable the class really is. The class has received buffs over the years and for many, many years retardation wasn't used because it would start canceling other vibes.

Irruel

I tried to post this yesterday, but it failed as I was using internet explorer for the day. Ew.

Anyway, while @ezalor is right about pre-restoring being something lycans can capitalise on, @xiuhcoatl is also right that as systems get better it gets harder and harder for the lycan to do that.
Basically, if the target waits for 'safe' moments to apply restoration, then the lycan doesn't get the time to use mangle (mangle being the abilities that take a mending break to a resto break).

• If the lycan is using claw+claw, there is no mending aff. The 'safe' time to prerestore is exactly when the lycan claws and is going to be off balance the longest
• If the lycan is using claw+rend or claw+hamstring (i.e. 1 mending aff and moderate limb damage), it can be tricky - but if you find the timing is too much, then a safe time is when you have tree balance up and can tree or endgame the mending break away
• If the lycan is using rend/hamstring only (2 mending affs and only slight limb damage), then it is even more tricky. Having said that, the safe time is easy - when you parry a combo and have tree/endgame free. This seems difficult to achieve but it really isn't given the slight amount of limb damage done but rend/hamstring. You have plenty of time to wait for the safe times.
• Other safe times can be created. If you've just bursted affs on the target and hindered them a bit - go for the resto.
• If you've transfixed/hangedman or whatever as part of your normal offense - resto.
• And there is always shield. Watching your resto tracking figures get a bit too close to breaking point? Shield+apply.

As systems get better, particularly the peripheral parts of systems (parry/prerestore specifically), mechanics which were balanced years ago begin to fall over.

I know I haven't been fighting as a lycan, so I'm not qualified to say they're broken at the moment, but plenty of people are claiming they are and I think my explanation may be correct.

Daingean

Has anyone else written a report suggesting that tekura feint be comboable? Because I'd support the -pants- off it. You already give up a kick to feint, so it''s not like we're gaining anything by feinting and then attacking, it just makes things like feinting in retardation or aeon slower.

Seir

No class deserves the Quickfoot treatment, so I disagree with removing Retardation from Mages despite how much of an infuriating ability it is. I'd argue for its removal if we knew that a Mage revamp was around the immediate corner, but it isn't and Magi deserve to stay viable in some (if not incredibly annoying) form.

As for Lycan, Oleis is correct in that they do not beat salve balance through hamstring and rend alone. Pre-restore does indeed help our offense to a degree. Essentially, you WILL beat someone if they pre-restore without thinking. You can then rend/hamstring and start biting before they recover salve balance. Generally, I'd count how many hits it'd take to proc someone's pre-resto and then set up their limbs respectively. Then, I'd hit them, fool their pre-resto, and then proceed to nom. Not pre-restoing against a Lycan will also equate in death. Were it not for Lycans being as tanky as a wet piece of tissue paper and falling over when someone so much as stares at them, they'd be pretty formidable.

The changes, from what I've been able to tell at a glance, should have helped Lycanthrope.

Edit: After reviewing some old logs, I also remember why Lycan struggles at times. If you target the legs, a competent parry will stop your biting/mangle. If you target the arms, they'll spam shield repeatedly until the arm is healed up or walk out. Lycans can't really stop someone from just walking away. One-armed shield has been the bane of my existence as a Lycan. I loathe it with a passion. Takes a lot just to set up that one arm and then it completely goes down the drain because someone spams shield with a mangled arm.