Statpacks!

Irruel

I like what I see so far with the statpacks.

It is slightly disappointing that wise is still the only possible shaman statpack (reliance on both int and willpower regen). That is more a product of the class than the statpack system though.

The choices for sent, lycan and syssin are all much more interesting and variable though, which is good to see. There is no obvious winner with them.

I do wonder if powerful is a bit too strong defensively?

Arbre

I'm using intelligent currently in Shaman...

Macavity

also another thought I had...

For those of us that have the starchart, can the plus and minus of the stats now be added to enhance read out as well?  This way we can see what we have it set to.  

Also with the deminished returns, does this apply to any stat point raised by the enhancement process or any skills/artifacts/star chart that may cause us to go over the stat??

Ilyon

Diminishing results apply to everything.

Daskalos

Alright, so in doing some testing with Ezalor\Toz\Moirean

• Holy nerfstick batman. DSK and DSW got a triple nerf - diminishing returns on stats, slower attack speeds while sip  was left alone, and the formula  changed. DSK also lost serration rune which stacked nicely with the mastery.
• As a result, against a similar audit, Teradrim flail did 1538 damage against a 56\56 at 2.5 second balance. DSW did 588x2 (1176) on 2.8 second balance versus a 58\58 audit.
• DSK  and the retribution route seemed mostly alright - over time, pressure built up and I  was able to pull off the retribution. That being said, I timed out against Moirean in the first fight due to being unable to maintain affliction pressure due to her actively hindering me through paralysis as well.
• A secondary kill route that Templars had, using combustion to pressure mana and prevent clotting, then using hemorrhage to kill with, is also now impossible due to scimitars not pushing any sort of damage whatsoever (500 a swing). Without serration to get the damage ticking, this kill route is dead.

So,  questions:

• DSW is unusable right now, even fully artifacted out as I am. I  am slightly afraid of the status of it in a non-artifacted version. I know a liaison round is coming soon, but perhaps this can be band-aided?
• What is the reasoning behind slowing down all attacks in the game but not slowing down sips\moss?
• The affliction route appears to be intact, though in both  cases I beat Moirean it was because she mirrored aeon on herself and not because of skill. I'm still a touch concerned because before DSK beat herb balance by .07 seconds. Now, it beats it by .02.  This creates a minisicule window to get ahead in combat,  The damage on DSK is also completely negligible now (fully artifacted, around 500 total). I understand that the rationale is that you shouldn't be able to push damage and afflictions at the same time, but again, the triple nerf hit DSK pretty hard as well. Other classes push multiple kill routes at once (Vampires and Bloodborn come to mind) - why can't Templars?

Oleis

Templar was targeted independently because even after the statpack changes, its damage was still quite high. Let me say before anything else that it MAY be necessary to relax some of the nerfs on Templar damage, but it is completely impossible to tell that right now, barely 12 hours after the changes. The baseline of everything in our combat balance has changed. Trying to compare before-and-after is not helpful. One has to focus on what is feasible now, without regard to the previous status quo.

The methods by which you were successful previously are dead --frankly, that's intentional. Many people who relied on damage are now required to delve into the more interesting aspects of their classes. Only after a decent adjustment period will we consider making tweaks to individual skills. That's why we've chosen to have the liaison round the way we did. (More information about that soon.)

Daskalos

Logs of Templar in action post changes - I won all three matches, however, against Aishia she basically just started screwing around instead of trying to hinder me.

Aishia: http://www.logsty.com/logs/sEkxO

Moirean1: http://www.logsty.com/logs/Qz4sX

Moirean2: http://www.logsty.com/logs/sEkxO

Edit: Draw vs Valingar. He also states that it is now impossible to get a 3 BBT instakill without l2 balance. Of note, monks\daru completely shut down Templar.

Valingar: http://www.logsty.com/logs/4OECB

Valdus

There is zero reason any salve offense should have been changed in a meaningful way; in fact, it should be easier now, because although all balance caps were reduced by 7%, salve applications are 10% slower.

Daskalos

He was getting the BBT's off, but I believe your problem is the timers on the 3BBT instakill. I think the previous one was wearing off before he could pull off the next one because of the new, slower combat.

Irruel

Arbre said:

I'm using intelligent currently in Shaman...

You don't find willpower regen to be more important than, well, just about anything?
I'll play around with it to test the validity, but my feeling is that one less level of regen is one less active oath.

Arbre

I only ever have Durdalis active, but Shaman is my bashing class only - I don't PK in it.

Daskalos

I've noticed a lot more willpower issues - running out really fast. Might need to look into the various willpower drains across the board since not every class has willpower regen and it feels like things were balanced around that regen.

Serrice

Valdus said:

There is zero reason any salve offense should have been changed in a meaningful way; in fact, it should be easier now, because although all balance caps were reduced by 7%, salve applications are 10% slower.

I take issue with this. You cannot compare percentages to each other directly because percentages alone mean little without the base number. 200% of a infinitesimally small number is still an infinitesimally small number. Likewise, while salve apps are 10% slower, the base value was small to begin with (1.0s); the slowdown on attacks, while marginally less (7%), is applied to base values that are /at least/ twice that.

Restoration would be the exception to this, given that its base was 4.0s, though its increase was less than 10% (4.0->4.3).

And here's a chocolate covered pickle. http://infinitedigressions.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/img_3949.jpg

Ezalor

I don't think base values matter. Even if you take a big number and an infinitesimally small number and double both, your proportion of one to the other remains the exact same, which is what matters. Say if your balance was 0.2 and your curing was 2, and you doubled both, you'd still get to get 10 attacks in for each cure. The ratio is what matters.

Toz

Ok, so let's play with that a bit.

Base balance: 7% changes

Carnifex: 2.00
Templar: 1.00
Lycanth: 1.50

Change it once:
Carnifex: 2.14
Templar: 1.07
Lycanth: 1.61

Are they in ratio? Sure. But that slow-down isn't just in 'who can hit the most'. Confusion doubles EQ recovery. Lethargy (I believe) impacts balance time based on a percentage. So there's already a disparity there, where Templars will get slowed down by ~.43 while Carnifex slows down by ~.86.

Let's not forget that there are some abilities that benefit greatly if used when the other person is off-balance. Properly timed, I have a threshold I can get a skewer off for free, depending on balance. With the slower classes increasing more readily in balance times (by a larger amount), that window widens - or, indeed, begins to exist at all. For instance? If I wait for a Carnifex to swing, I can almost get a shatter off, as it stands. For vampire, this is also probably true. Templars won't fall vulnerable to this.

I could go on - I mean, sure it's likely stuff you can dismiss by saying 'oh that's on big deal'. But when you stack up a ton of 'no big deal', you get a problem. Mobs attack the same (or seem to?) meaning that 7% slow down may be the difference between being able to hit-and-run and area or not. Classes that swing slow now have to commit more fully to a fight, and get used to the minor difference there between 'safe to swing' and 'time to turtle'. And, of course, all passives still seem to be firing at the same rate despite the slow-down of curing.

Ezalor

There are indeed some things that are different now because not everything was raised. Stuff like channel time wasn't raised so they were indirectly buffed in this round. If things turn up problematic due to indirect buffs or nerfs we can address them. Confusion and lethargy still have the same effect regardless of what your base values are as far as beating curing balance.

As for bashing, this was a pretty big upgrade actually, and that's even before factoring in the augmetics.

Toz

Overall, inclined to agree there was a bashing buff. But at the same time, for lower leveled hunting, I hit-and-run'd a ton. Got 4 endgamers currently, and I love hitting above my weight class while trying to bash to 100 - certain mobs now have a good chance of hitting 2 times per balance if I get unlucky. Like I said, there's small little niggling things that might cause trouble. Lots of variables changed, so you can't ONLY evaluate it based on the % change.

Ezalor

Yeah, passives seem to be the big one right now (hi Sentinels).

Also if you were bashing to 100 as Lithe, you are a far braver man than me. I did everything on Resilient, heh. Pre-endgame bashing should be better now too, since the statpacks are a bit better and they get the enhances earlier.

Moirean

I wouldn't really look at any of those fights against me as an example of anything. I had derped up my settings and was poking around with skills to see how stuff felt under the new system.

Everyone feels very tanky right now, which is good to stop 2-shots from high artifacts, but I think this may have made it pointless for people without artifacts to attempt damage (by this, I mean built up for a burst, versus just sheer damage from basic attacks), at least for the classes I'm in. Something to watch to see how it plays out in practice, as it would kinda suck if an entire kill route was limited only to heavy artifacts.

Killien

While I know this doesn't directly relate to Statpacks, it at least correlates with the discussion. Has there been any discussion with tweaking the damage in Xaanhal, Tiyen, or the Volcano (I know the last is meant as a group area, but I'm adding it in anyhow), or releasing more areas to bash?

The reason I bring it up is because before, with Resilient then Powerful statpacks, you had enough innate resistances to either tank Xaan (mostly), or be able to handle Tiyen without too many issues. Now, with the limitation of two resistances, possibly a singular buff to cutting/blunt, or the addition to stats, both areas are proving more than difficult.

I understand that they are meant as high-end bashing. They are great experience and two of the only places to drop a decent amount of gold from mobs. However, Tiyen has high damage on top of massive bleeding (mitigated in part with natural clotting), and Xaanhal does an insane amount of elemental/magic damage even through resistance rings. The latter, especially, seems like its damage was tuned with trans-miniskills in mind, if not some level of artifacts.

I know I've read before that there has been call for more bashing areas, but until volunteers (be they mortal or divine) get around to creating more, will there be anything done to make the damage more manageable, especially in light of new statpacks, or should I be looking for a bashing partner on a more regular basis?

Toz

You're tankier. Mobs do primarily cutting damage, with only a few (think Volcano) coming to mind for bludgeoning. I suggest snagging a high blunt fullplate suit for those, specing for cutting damage, transing your minis and working with elec/magic resistances. Fire/Cold are more common, but also easier to get a resist built up for them. Overall, you're actually tankier in a lot of ways - especially if you pick the right statpack. Look at the resists etc. each give, try to minmax based on your needs from there. I couldn't bash Xaanhal in Carnifex without hit-and-run, now I can solobash it pretty well.

Killien

Part of my point in there, though, was that you shouldn't have to trans miniskills to bash every area that is considered 'endgame'. I've gotten fire, cold,and magic up pretty well. They sit at 40-50%, depending on whether I have a godfavour or not, but that is besides the point.

I suppose the point was more, "In addition to reviewing how these changes affect combat, perhaps look at bashing areas, as well".

That, in itself, is why I was saying that the question may not be related to the topic, but figured may ask it anyways.

Valdus

Several endgame bashing areas actually should require miniskills - Xaanhal is the easiest example I can think of. Certain areas may be easier or harder depending on which miniskills you've learned and which resistances you've chosen. It's also important to note that in addition to the enhancement choices, many statpacks have their own innate resistances, allowing you to achieve resist levels previously not possible.

Overall, the changes have scaled everyone upwards slightly, so there are no plans to change any bashing areas at this time.

Sarita

Is there something somewhere that shows exactly how many enhancement points you have to play with, or a little table of some sort showing how you've spent them, where you can spend more, or anything along those lines?

Periluna

@Sarita: ENHANCEMENTS 

Sarita

Ah, thanks.

Riluo

I am slightly disappointed at the potency change as it seems to make little sense. I know as a Bloodborn our frenzy is bad already, but this sounds kind of iffy as we lost a chunk of our hit power with scythes in two ways now (removed serration too). Any admin care to explain pretty please why this happened.

Macavity

@Valdus, @Razmael, @Oleis

ENHANCEMENTS MEMORIZE AS <name>

 - Memorizes your current enhancement layout.

 - You can have up to ten sets max.

Can we actually have this raised to 11, because for those of us who have ten classes, at some point we are going to get good enough with this system that we will save our tweaks for each class, but if we ever want to change one we will need to delete it rather than setting up a new one to test it and then having to remember what the old one was.  This would allow us to set up another one that could be changed out for one of the 10 and then delete that 10th one should we choose to.

Moirean

I'd even say 20-25, so you can have a PK and bashing setup for each class, with room for specialized setups.

Macavity

Moirean said:

I'd even say 20-25, so you can have a PK and bashing setup for each class, with room for specialized setups.

I smell an artifact in the works for something like that.  So I say raise the number to 11 then introduce an artifact that will double that number to a max of 22??

just a thought