Split paralysis, create a whole new curing stack/tree/branch

Irruel

+(Aarbrok) FROM <Teno> since paralysis gets 'spammed' alot in combat, is it going to get looked into, like how it works in imperian where its on a cool down to make－group combat a little more easier

@(Slyphe) No.

I saw this in the QA session log. There was also a thread recently which discussed stupidity and it's effects. It got me thinking about how it could actually be changed.

Paralysis is like an entire curing branch all on its own. It gets away with it by being easy to cure - it is always there, just one herb balance away. Complete lockdown of physical offense, partial lockdown of equilibrium offense (some abilities can ignore it). It destroys avoidance, parrying, some curing abilities, tree tatt and probably other things. Any one of those effects would be a useful affliction all on its own, and that shows in how often it is first in people's offensive affliction priority lists. Why would you choose any other aff to be first?


My proposal:

Split it up into a whole bunch of afflictions, all bloodroot-cured, and create venoms and mentis afflictions (and whatever other skills also need them, such as telepathy). We then get a whole new affliction stack to play with.

An example of a new cure order for bloodroot affs (not sure what order would be best):

1: Avoidance-killer
2: Parry-disabler
3: Tree-blocker
4: Paralysis (physical attack stopper only, not tree/parry/avoidance).

The other already existing bloodroot affs would be mixed in with those in whatever order is balanced.

Daskalos

To me, the problem with that is you make it harder to get locks and how that affects other classes. Could you imagine, for instance, fighting someone who hits you every round with avoidance-killer and parry-disabler every round? Now you can have those affs soft-locked on you and you can never cure it. Against a Lycan, that would be certain death. Tree blocker there are already a couple of skills in game that do that.

Vharen

@Dask

You could use that same argument for paralysis/sensitivity spam, but then you'd have avoidance blocking, parry blocking, movement and offense stopped, tree stopped, and increased damage taken. That's really not the best scenario either, since you won't be getting the full impact of the affs if they don't stick through your next attack, and if they do stick and you're spamming, then you're being silly.

It probably has some other curing implications, but that's not the best way to illustrate it.

Ezalor

I really don't get why paralysis is such a big deal. Herb balance is around 1.8 seconds and the fastest anyone can give paralysis is 1.89 (fully artied Templar). It is an amazing aff, and also one that will never be stuck on because it cures first. It functions as more of a herb-balance-eater than anything else.

Doesn't matter that it stops parrying because classes that need to stop parrying can't give paralysis as a natural part of their offense. Doesn't matter that it stops avoidance because for most classes with a 2 attack combo (the only time it's relevant, since it will always be cured before balance comes back unless they're locked), the second attack can't be dodged. Templars, for example, can only possibly have their first slash of the DSK dodged, the second will hit 100% unless they have clumsiness or blurry vision.

The only place I see paralysis becoming truly problematic is in Main Gauche for Templars, but we tried to get that aspect removed in the liaison round and it got rejected. I still don't think any class that can't disable Main Gauche can reliably beat a Templar simply because of that skill. Which leaves Bloodborn, Syssin, Carnifex, and Sentinels as the only classes that can realistically have a chance against them.

I fight Templars almost every day, the worst offenders of the "paralysis spamming" and I have never noticed that aff to be a gamebreaker, simply because it never stays on. I do, however, fight in one of the classes that can disable Main Gauche all the time; it's possible that the people who are getting set behind by paralysis are hitting Main Gauche, because it goes something like paralyzed -> cure paralysis -> attack -> paralyzed again, herb balance is gone, sit around in it, get Retri'd because if you hit MG while they are close to Vorpal you lose.

Toz

Really no reason for that to give an aff at all...

Missari

If they take the aff off, they may as well delete the skill. I won't shed a tear.

Kaeus

I've honestly gotten used to not even considering MG, as it is avoidable if the person affs paralysis as their main attack. I really wouldn't hurt if it left either, and I even tried to get the venom application piece removed last liaison round. Instead it got made into a defense. =(

Kikon

Not to make it sound as the sole culprit, but crippled and crippled body probably shouldn't be in the bloodroot tree. I think if they got shifted, there would probably be less need to add curare every round as a Templar. Paralysis shouldn't have the ability to lead into a soft-lock for what it does, aside from chewing up a herb balance.

Vharen

I'd say the primary issue with paralysis is it presents a lack of options. You either cure paralysis (if you can) or you are in for some pain because of the major shutdown in your capabilities. In a game that emphasizes choice, that's a bit of an odd design. 

To build on what Ezalor, there is a sort-of cap on how often you can expect to get the affliction in 1v1 scenarios, barring things like curare darts or relapsing curare. Either it is merely eating herb balance, or it is the end-all of afflictions if you can't clean it off for whatever reason. You go from an irritating primary cure to a debilitating affliction due to odd mechanical situations, and team fights are one of those situations.

So, splitting the effects could allow for avoid-stop and parry-stop herb afflictions to be reasonably placed, meaning people may actually get use out of them outside of team aff stacking. Putting tree-stop or tattoo-stop on its own affliction would make it so going for a lock isn't as effective immediately upon success, but it does open up the lock a bit more because tree-stop will end up lower in priority than current paralysis. Same thing if move-stop and offense-stop get split off, because there will occasionally be situations where you might see someone suffer through those instead of curing them immediately.

Since it really seems to be viewed as "Just an herb balance eater" in 1v1, I don't see the harm in splitting up the effects. If an herb balance eater is wanted by game design, then just putting in a super-anxiety toxin would effectively be the same. In my currently-armchair-warrior opinion.

Haven

Vharen...why. Just why?!

-stare signature-

Ezalor

If you split up the effects and nerf the aff into anything other than "must be cured" status you severely nerf all classes that rely on locks because you take away one of the only things that must be cured before asthma. Right now the only two venom affs that exist in that class are paralysis and either clumsiness or magic impaired (they are mutually exclusive affs and cure each other), allowing locks to happen because if both are on then the target must eat through 2 herb balances to get to asthma. Take away one and venom classes are going to be seriously hurting. You could introduce a new kelp aff to help that out, but then you have to also look at rebalancing all the classes that were made with paralysis hindering in mind. It's just a huge project for something that isn't -that- problematic, IMO.

As I said the only huge issue with paralysis I see is when used with Main Gauche, but that's a problem with MG and not paralysis as it'd be almost as potent with any other venom aff too.

As far as hindering goes, paralysis pales in comparison to, for example, epilepsy. While paralysis's effects are undoubtedly better than epilepsy's, the fact that epilepsy can't be cured with a single eat in certain situations makes it hinder much harder. Right now half of paralysis's use is that because it is so strong it forces a herb balance to cure it above all else, but the actual effects are rarely felt until you're at the stage where you should lose anyways.

Moirean

Cluminess and weariness should both be curing before asthma. It's the entire point of kelp-stacking. If they aren't, you should bug it.

Serrice

He mentioned clumsiness and weariness isn't practical because it's a focus cure.

Moirean

Ah tired eyes. I got really worried that they were curing out of order!

Vharen

@Ezalor

Weariness is also a toxin and above asthma, if the HELP isn't out of date. 

The problems I see with paralysis are its forced predictability and false impact in 1v1, and its strength outside of 1v1. Not really an immediate concern, but it's at least worth discussing.

As I said, if there really is a need for a "must be cured first" herb affliction, it can be made without the additional effects of paralysis. 

Then, splitting up the effects into other afflictions and spreading them out a bit can serve to make the effects more useful. A movement stop toxin put in front of asthma would help kelp stacks, bringing it up to 3 for all venom classes, 4 for BB and Syssin. A null-avoidance afflict buried in bloodroot could help out melee affliction classes, and you can leave the gutted down "paralysis" on top of bloodroot.

The end result is that, even without a must-be-cured-first affliction, you can buff up the stacks a bit where needed while reducing the impact of a single affliction. 

So, I would say that you don't care about the hindering effect, but want it for its threat. Would you prefer having a first-cured affliction with a paralysis split, just a paralysis split that touched up the kelp stack when it's done, or #if !%ismember(paralysis,@enemy_afflictions) {envenom @weapon with curare} {blah}?

Again, appending that I am mostly talking from my experience elsewhere, so if I am stating something factually incorrect, please tell me.

Edit: I don't see him mentioning weariness as focusable, but that still means a nonfocusable kelp aff would be in order if paralysis got any changes.

Moirean

While I can see the merits in what is being suggested here, I'm pretty much always against adding more venoms/affs to the game. I'd rather see more mechanics and tactics - stuff that demands heavy system changes and bloats out the system (eg more affs to learn in an already extensive list) are unappealing additions in my eyes, as they just up that barrier to entry and make a headache for current/returning fighters with system maintenance.

Mastema

Main Gauche is a stupid idea, when you consider it is just boosting their already crazy aff rate.

Benedicto

I dislike the whole passive aff thing really. There's no ability or tactics required and the best case scenario is you have a bunch of stuff that doesn't really do a great deal and doesn't contribute to the overall kill goals of the class I.e. Mages, Domination etc. Or, they add to an already cray cray aff rate and make things slightly unreasonable I.e. Maingauche, Bloodmeld etc

Ezalor

As Serrice said, I didn't mention weariness because it's a focus aff.

Vharen I can see your points, and they are valid, but I just don't see it as anything pressing enough to warrant the big changes and rebalancing required. Even in teamfights paralysis isn't that noticeable, since damage/instakills are king there and everyone usually stacks all their attacks at once. It is possible to keep someone paralysis locked forever, but it's equally possible to instant Retribution them, oneshot bash, hangedman impale, slam BBT, etc etc. Sure it's stronger in teams but there are tons of other stuff that are even better in teams.

The reality is that something like this would have to be tested out and balancing done around it, and as is even the liaison changes have started to lag. With unlimited resources and coders, sure it's worth a look, but that luxury doesn't exist and it's such a minor problem (if it is one at all) in comparison with other stuff that needs to be fixed or changed.

As for the point about always using curare, that's going to happen regardless. If you change it it'll look just the same, except with insert new kelp aff and/or xentio instead of curare. There is, unfortunately, usually only one optimal affliction route to take, especially for venom classes as the affs that are actually useful to them are severely limited.