Roleplay Courtesies

Areka

That stance does make someone inconsiderate, yes. Evisceration may be a 'standard' in the game due to mechanics, but that doesn't mean everyone is OK, nor signing up to having/with going through detailed RP either enduring or witnessing it. Same with rape, or other forms of torture and violence. You projecting your tolerance onto other people is harmful and disregards the others in the community as secondary or disposable when it comes to your enjoyment. It makes them, and their experience, irrelevant. It also encourages the rape culture that exists in Aetolia and in IRE, where it's the victim's issue/victim's fault for there being an issue, when people are extremely complex and it isn't always such a cut and dry issue of 'you control your level of involvement' as you make it. It may be that way -for you-, but that isn't so for everyone, -especially- in a game with a 13 year old threshold.

There's a difference between PK and mechanics, and forcing someone into a session where you go Ramsay Bolton all over them. 

Draiman

If someone runs up to one of the Enorian City Leaders, drop kicks you in the face with a PK skill that stuns you, and then their buddy shows up, hog ties you with more PK skills and they drag you off to a torture chamber in Bloodloch and start grueling them for information about this or that, then I'd say so long as it was kept short and sweet then they are perfectly within their rights. PK is just as much an RP thing as the "emote" mechanic. Quit trying to say they're from two different worlds, because they're not.

/2 cents

Haven

Areka said:

That stance does make someone inconsiderate, yes. Evisceration may be a 'standard' in the game due to mechanics, but that doesn't mean everyone is OK, nor signing up to having/with going through detailed RP either enduring or witnessing it. Same with rape, or other forms of torture and violence. You projecting your tolerance onto other people is harmful and disregards the others in the community as secondary or disposable when it comes to your enjoyment. It makes them, and their experience, irrelevant. It also encourages the rape culture that exists in Aetolia and in IRE, where it's the victim's issue/victim's fault for there being an issue, when people are extremely complex and it isn't always such a cut and dry issue of 'you control your level of involvement' as you make it. It may be that way -for you-, but that isn't so for everyone, -especially- in a game with a 13 year old threshold.

There's a difference between PK and mechanics, and forcing someone into a session where you go Ramsay Bolton all over them. 

...but there is a set standard. x_x If your threshold is below that standard, you're projecting your lowered tolerance onto others as you have said. How is that okay?

IRE has set the standard. You cannot possibly place blame on someone for following said standard. If they go ABOVE then I see your case and agree...but if they're doing what's normal then I don't understand why there is suddenly an issue. Especially if the person with the lowered tolerance can just leave at any time or speak up.

IF they are feeling trapped then I feel that we as a community need to help establish the fact that they have a lot more power than they think OR the game producers need to lower the standard theshold. 

Eleanor

You're not expected to think about and write a detailed description of your character responding to a decay slung at you in combat. Therein lies the difference of why it's so much different to roleplay.

Haven

Eleanor said:

You're not expected to think about and write a detailed description of your character responding to a decay slung at you in combat. Therein lies the difference of why it's so much different to roleplay.

...I don't understand why there's a double standard for what's essentially the same thing.

decay Eleanor and You have emoted: Haven reaches out to grab Eleanor's arm, withering her flesh in agonizing pain. (or however detailed I decided to get so long as I matched the scope/lore of the actual skill) are the same thing... why do I have to ask permission for one and not the other? The only real difference is that one literally does damage to your character in a mechanical sense and the other may include more flavor.

 

Eleanor

Because when you do it as roleplay, you are engaging me as a roleplayer, and I (with my integrity as a roleplayer, self-imposed but something I value) am expected to respond in roleplay. That means I have to consider, hmm, my character's flesh has just been withered and she's being grabbed onto by a dude who's probably got the physical advantage, she's likely in agony and can feel all her cells withering and dying and oh god this is reminding me about how I got bitten by a white-tail and got necrosis of the flesh help help I'm having an episode.

If it's in combat I get to go 'oh balls that's a decay emote, he doin' damage, I better run' or a similarly less in-depth response. There is a double standard in regard to what a roleplayer is expected to react to and in what depth, but that's the rope you walk in a game that combines both fightey-combat-mechanics and serious-business-roleplay.

Edit: for clarity, I guess what I'm saying is, engaging in emotes expects response in emotes, but engaging in mechanics tends to expect response in mechanics (physically GTFOing being the example here)

Phoenecia

You're entirely missing the point, Haven, or just not reading my posts. Some people DON'T speak up or just walk away from RP because it's not made clear, and the option is never presented to them, and in many cases the other person constructs the situation to make it look like they CAN'T just walk away. It's like an abusive relationship.

And I am not going to accept that the person with the lower threshold is to blame because the way you're saying it, you're describing players with lower tolerance as being a 'problem' like they're somehow lesser than you and not worthy of playing the game. Well, you know what? That's total bullshit. We all have different standards of roleplay. We have our likes and dislikes, but that does NOT make anybody better. What DOES matter about our roleplay is making sure that the people we interact with regularly - and most importantly of all, the people who we want to open up avenues of RP with - will have a good impression of us and want to keep RPing with us. We're all players, and we're all responsible for maintaining a welcoming atmosphere.

When I had Xenia and Barda enemied to Enorian for hunting in Torston, people called me out on it even though it made sense from an IC standpoint. If I had a chance to go back and redo things, I'd have handled that entire situation way differently because I realize now that I had been a huge jerk, and had probably closed off lines of RP that could've been interesting, and if they weren't playing now, that one experience might've been enough to make them stop playing.

There is no one true standard for anything in this game aside from not being a jerk. No one likes feeling trapped. You aren't the only person who matters. Your character isn't the only one who matters. Aetolia may be a game with dark themes, but that doesn't mean that there can't be lighter things within it too; the game world is much more complex than 'ALL DARKNESS ALL THE TIME'. Everyone has their thing, and there's no real wrong way to play unless you're trying to be an ass to the entire playerbase. Everyone has to accommodate to EACH OTHER.

Arbre

Let's go ahead and move on; you've all stated your opinions clearly and are now running in circles.

Sessizlik

I really don't think mechanics should be used to initiate an rp-session. Basically because if I see someone using a skill that is doing damage, my initial reaction would be to run (or possibly fight back. <.<) My initial reaction would most likely -not- be "Oh, let's emote to this guy/girl and see if they want to play!"

 

I think that when it comes to torture and rape rp, it's highly different from game mechanics. Not from the character standpoint, but from the player standpoint. Players might have experienced something similar and could react very strongly to what is going on. Be sensitive about it. If they say no from the beginning, don't do it. Also, be prepared to fade to black or end things if they become too much for the victim.

Irruel

For me personally, the minute someone starts using PvP stuff on me, I automatically assume they're just out for the 'lolpk', and aren't interested in RPing at all, and I avoid them entirely even if they do want to RP. Even with the OOC tell, I'd probably be all '**** no, why should I go along with it? I have other things I want to do'.

If you do that sort of thing, you're still pretty much 'trapping' them into going along with whatever you want to do. You've already captured them, and you're only presenting them with the option of 'how far do you want to take this' instead of 'are you okay with being kidnapped'; what control do they feel they have with that first option?

Point 1:
It always upsets me when people separate pvp and rp. The lolpkers are as lame as the lolrpers, in my book. Sure, I understand where the attitude comes from, but there are plenty of people for whom the choice to pk someone is the result of the best RP.

Which brings me to point 2:
You can either kidnap me, or you can't. Some people might agree to emote it out, but so long as there are game mechanics allowing it to happen, that would be my answer to someone asking permission of me (i.e. "You're welcome to try.")

If someone attacked your character, truelocked it, bindings, summoned to a remote locked room etc, and left you there all without saying a word or making an emote, you'd probably chalk it up to them being a lolpker bordering on griefer. But you wouldn't say they ought to have asked permission first.

Hadoryu

As a community, you should not forget that there are very real negative consequences to expecting more and more consideration from each player. The mechanism is similar to what you'd call 'chilling effect' in a different context. This BS new social movement that's apparently gaining speed among young people (basically political correctness from hell, imo) seems to be all about how bad the 'aggressor' is an how everything should be written-in-triplicate-consensual. Somewhere along the way people forgot that for things to happen, someone has to initiate, and if you put too much of a burden on initiation, people will no longer bother.

If you're telling me I have to firstly ask OOC any time it would make sense for my character to drive an axe into an enemy's ribcage via emote, you're going to make me not want to bother. It is not that hard to be context sensitive. You do not go up to Desian as Enorian militia and then expect him to first ask you OOC if it's OK to emote swinging a hammer at your head. It would be stupid of him to ask and it would ruin the moment. Being sensitive to context shouldn't be THAT hard for either party and mistakes can be discussed and learned from. All the while you possess the literal, final option to end an interaction that makes you uncomfortable unequivocally and refusal to disengage in those circumstances is inexcusable. It has nothing to do with 'victim blaming' and if I read the words 'rape culture' just one more time...

Eleanor

The kidnap/rape/torture-ee can just break character and leg it if they're being triggered, it's true. But it sure does ruin their day/longer timeperiod and kill your intended roleplay dead before you got to have the intended fun with it. There might be no problem at all (Elea's been the subject of a few surprise kidnappings and I gleefully played along), but seems like going 'hey I'm thinking of doing something lengthy and a bit scary, you dig' would save everyone a bit of heartache if it did go bad.

Hadoryu

Use common sense. If you're going at a topic that's HIGHLY controversial, like rape, you know there's a decent chance it can lead to a negative experience for your partner. It's a matter of decency to either steer away from that sort of scene or to ask. It's subjective, but socially functional people should be quite capable of drawing the line in the right place. Providing enough familiarity, you may be comfortable enough with each other to not need to ask too. It's all about the context existing between the people in question.

You'll note rape is not a common theme in Aetolia, for perfectly good reasons. Violence and torture, on the other hand, is a common theme. The barrier to entry, as it were, is much lower there. Whether you agree with that morally is irrelevant - that's just how the game's context is. Let's be perfectly clear about a very important point here - Aetolia is a game that romanticizes violence and torture. If you are playing this game, you have made certain implications about what you are OK with in fiction. If you are NOT OK with such elements in your interaction, you should be mindful to put that across to your partner. It is no harder to send a tell saying 'this is making me uncomfortable' than it is to send a tell asking 'would <this> make you uncomfortable?'

And now a personal anecdote. There has been RP that has made me uncomfortable. There has been RP that has left me feeling like shit for a week or for a month or more.  I became a father at 18, with a woman who was 25 and who I had known for two months, a woman I wasn't serious about. It was the hardest time of my life, watching my family break itself in two, watching my mother's health decline over worry and anguish, trying to make ends meet and saying goodbye to all the plans I had about my future in a bid to do the responsible thing. I still feel like I haven't done all I should have for my now eleven year old son, and I continue to try my best. That is my context, a fragment of my worldly experience, one most people aren't aware of.
My character was in a relationship with another. I was starting to find the relationship toxic on an OOC level, because as these things are wont to do, IC/OOC separation was an issue. So I was in the process of RPing my way out of it. The other character, in a bid (one of many) to force the relationship to continue, asserted that she's probably pregnant. It should be clear now, knowing my context, why that bothered me deeply.
But here's the thing - that person was not aware of my context. That person was not maliciously trying to make me feel like shit OOC. That person, and the world at large, aren't solely responsible for my emotional well-being. I am, first and foremost.

My being made uncomfortable doesn't mean rules (social or written) were broken. It doesn't mean others should modify their behavior so it doesn't happen again, because that too comes at a cost. If there is a thing I have a problem with that most other people in my social context don't, it isn't society's problem when someone 'triggers' me. Sometimes shit happens and we have to deal with it.

Atrapoema

Hado, I've missed you.

Maghak

You are ultimately participating in this game as one of many players. While some things are implicit in the mechanics, such as the capacity for violence and the ability to act as your own agent if you are slighted, things that fall outside of mechanical purview - such as rape themes, extended kidnapping and the like - can be upsetting for people for various reasons. Asking for OOC permission before engaging in something like that - something unnecessary for a mechanical resolution, and done at the whim of the initiator - falls under common decency and respect for your fellow players.

Aetolia is a dark setting but it's also PG-13 unless otherwise indicated, and it isn't unreasonable to the point of stifling freedom of expression to request warning for things that wouldn't normally be expected within the confines of the game world.

Vharen

You do always have the option to QQ. Being kidnapped mechanically and kidnapped through roleplay is a wishywashy level of distinction. Most people out of novicehood should also have necrosis, so even if you truelock them in a sigild haven room, there's an out.

That doesn't mean that just going out and doing it is something 'socially functional people' would do without asking. It being possible for someone to declare their discomfort with a scenario does not preclude you from having to worry about them, if you want to at all appear like a person who gives two unicorns about anyone but yourself. No, you can't always avoid making someone upset or uncomfortable; that's life. That doesn't mean you just go stomping through without a care in the world, either. Going "Play my way or QQ" is not an acceptable stance.

This is not me saying that the idea that someone would prefer it to play out mechanically is wrong. That is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, but it is a *personal* one. It's even the one I believe in personally, but I still say you need to ask. I'd also wager that there are enough people of questionable social functionality that an overall stance of "Ask if you get into uncomfortable territory" is the best way to go about things.

Moirean

Socially functional is a big assumption to be making. Quite a few of the people playing MUDs have some sort of issues they are grappling with. That sounds harsh, but I mean it...almost fondly, I guess. I had pretty crippling social anxiety when I first got into MUDs and being able to interact with people in a more remote setting helped me get past that. However, I found myself just going along with some pretty uncomfortable, shady stuff when I played Avalon and Achaea because I was a confused, lonely, insecure person who didn't want to upset or alienate my new internet friends. I agree that there is a point where it can be silly to ask permission for everything, but we should also consider that MUDs tend to attract the more fragile, damaged and awkward types, types who may find it scary or hard to tell someone to stop when things go too far.

Hadoryu

Discomfort in a RP situation is not going to kill you. Once again we're back to justifying this hyper-sensitivity on the basis of the supposed damage to be done should a person eventually find themselves in an unpleasant RP scene. I've been there, it sucks, but you get over it. It makes no sense to penalize every single future encounter on the off chance that one might lead to a few uncomfortable emotes before both people can make a call on whether they want to willingly be a part of this or not. Yes, expecting everyone to go OOC before proceeding with a scene that MAY toe the line of comfort is a significant cost to incur to the roleplaying experience. It is not OK to just discount that - being 'safer' is not always better, because there are costs to safety.

And I don't mean to be harsh here, but if you aren't socially functional, if you have crippling emotional issues that can lead to traumatically experiencing a RP scene, what in the world are you doing in an emotionally provocative, darkly themed, mature roleplaying game? You should be addressing your issues and it should not be the burden of every person who comes in contact with you to accommodate the specifics of your well-being. I touched on this already - I have been in crap situations myself, I have had my emotions provoked in very unpleasant ways, but it is NOT the responsibility of the people I'm playing with to protect me from that. It is ludicrous to expect everyone to walk on eggshells around everyone else, because vulnerable people put themselves in a situation where they make themselves available for interaction that can be potentially harmful to them. It is literally impossible to anticipate every way in which someone can be 'triggered' or in which they can 'consent without really wanting to consent.'

I'll reiterate this point, because I think it's crucial for the health and enjoyment of everyone in the game: If you have deep emotional issues that can be triggered by a RP scene - do NOT RP on Aetolia. Sooner or later somebody won't get the memo that they're supposed to ask. Or they won't ask because they don't give a damn about you. Even if you get every decent person to feel forced to ask before going forward with a scene - your problem weren't the decent people to begin with. You are opening yourself up to trauma by participating in this activity, until you can get your emotional well-being in order.

It is furthermore completely unjust to expect every person who's come here to cooperatively craft a story to try to accommodate all possible emotional issues their RP partner might have. If I am on this game trying to RP, I do not want to be placed in a situation where I represent a real risk to someone's well-being for simply telling a story as I feel is appropriate. This is really, really important. It is absolutely NOT OK to put someone in a situation where they might unknowingly become responsible for harm that has come to you from them simply developing a narrative - even if it's a controversial one.

Vharen

Stupid hyper-sensitive people, not wanting to torture or kidnap people without their consent. Stupid people with any sort of emotional handicap playing this game. Seriously?

Even your scenario barely touched what the conversation here is really about. Your ex-boo throwing out "I'M PREGGO" is still a bit of a wtf, but I wouldn't expect the average person to have some sort of mental issue with it. If you are going to try and torture and kidnap someone without their consent and it's not someone you know incredibly well, I say you get what's coming to you, and no amount of "WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO ASK, STUPID POLITICALLY CORRECT YOUNGNS" will stop it.

Hadoryu

The average person would be traumatized if they were kidnapped in Aetolia? Seriously?

You should perhaps pick a position. Either you're for protecting people with emotional triggers, whatever they may be, or you're not. Your personal attitude toward me shouldn't be definitive in whether I get denied this 'protection', while other hypothetical people have it granted.

And are you seriously disagreeing with me saying that people that are likely to be seriously emotionally traumatized by a RP scene in Aetolia that involves violence/kidnapping should not play? Because whatever your position is on having or not having to ask, that is completely irresponsible for everyone involved.

Vharen

You're trying to disguise the point, and adding words to what people have been saying.

I, nor anyone in this thread, have said that you have to protect everyone from every emotional trigger. There is a line, and extended torture and kidnapping are on the unicorn rainbow princess other side of it. If you can't ken that, then I daresay you need to go reevaluate your priorities.

And, that last paragraph, seriously? Man. I'm at a loss, and your inanity is about to make me break forum rules.

Sessizlik

I don't think the main thing here is rp that toes the line of what might be uncomfortable. What is being discussed is severe torture/rape/kidnapping. These things -can- be extremely uncomfortable for some people. I am up for most things, but I have my limits and I see no reason to stop playing Aetolia just because I wouldn't agree to them. Also, @Moirean made a great point in that some people might be a bit too insecure to say no in some situations, which could cause things to get out of hand.

 

What I think is important when it comes to these extremely dark themes, which are not the norm in emoted aetolia, (even though it might be in mechanics), is that we show eachother respect. Of course you can start a darker rp an hope the other person tags along, but when it comes to the really awful things, the big, bad things, show your fellow players some respect, unless you know them well enough to know they will agree to it. If you are unsure if a person can/want to handle it, then ask. It's not too difficult and if you are a good roleplayer, you won't let one ooc tell break the mood.

Minarael

Nobody is claiming that you must get consent for literally every engagement in this game. 

The request is for consent when you are intending to potentially foist really intense themes on someone unexpectedly. This takes no time, does not at -all- detract from the game, and shows respect for the players behind the characters you interact with.

Asking for consent before you randomly kidnap and maim player X in a RP sense (which, as has already been explained, frequently entails more emotional investment than mechanical actions) is a far cry from asking if you want to do anything vaguely violent. 

A collective voice asking that RPers respect the potential thresholds for violence other people have is not a sign that these people are incredibly damaged, emotionally ruined people. Nor does playing Aetolia imply that you are always and forever bound to engage in really intense RP because sometimes the game includes intense themes.

tl;dr 

It's not ridiculous to ask that one have a basic level of compassion for the players behind characters, and demonstrate it by asking before engaging in extremely intense RP at random. 

Toz

It is poor form to RP beyond mechanics. If I emote about having wings, but my character is a level 5 rajamala, I'm wrong if I don't have any way to actually codedly fly.

It is not, however, wrong to RP below mechanics- plenty of people have been blind/deaf/mute and bypassed the 'lol epidermal' thing.

So, when you start to limit someone mechanically, or attempt to, using RP? You're asking them to limit their character unnecessarily. Torture potentially crippling, rape potentially(definitely) scarring, what have you. You emoted cutting my hands off? Cool, apply restoration. Limbs grow back - basically, there's nothing permanent you can do to kill me short of overloading me with pvp affs (I can still necrosis to get out, fyi), and there's not a thing you can do about it. If you want someone to limit themselves, the LEAST you can do is make sure they're okay with it. You don't wander into a bank and demand a loan, you don't go to a library and steal books, you don't emote raping someone in a text game without being sure they're okay with it. Anyone who says otherwise either holds a distinctly casual disregard for their fellow players, or doesn't really understand what they're asking.

Irruel

The discussion is not and never was about rape. Someone brought rape into it, but it was never part of the original question and not one single person has suggested that rape RP should ever even occur, let alone question the need for consent.

i.e. stop lumping it together with kidnapping/torture, because it is not the same thing and trying to suggest that it is is a derail and a purposeful misdirection.

Toz

Kidnapping/torture is fairly intensive as well- the point stands. There's no coded way to hold someone there, you can't do it, etc. etc. replace all points with torture and you still have my core point, which is that you are essentially forcing someone to do something by playing along with you, and it is (as such) on you to ensure that you have some form of consent.

Eleanor

As an aside, this thread is providing roleplayers with concerns with a list of people to avoid the unicorns out of. Just watch the disagree patterns!

Missari

Having an opinion on something should not be cause for shunning, imo.

Aarbrok

Bottom line being, if you want to roleplay a sadistic unicorn, then do it.  I have done it, its alot of fun, but you can easily offend people on an OOC level, and it is absolutely not hard to do.  You need to have communication and it is as simple as prefacing something to that character before you let your emotions take over your roleplay and do something you regret, also something I am guilty of and look back and regret doing.

The administration albeit understanding have guidelines in which you need to be able to follow, HELP LANGUAGERULES, if you feel by any means you are about to violate this, confirm with the other party, or risk what may happen.  Most characters have little problem with cursing, sexual reference, weird fetishes, whathaveyou, but there are some who are Young, New to the MUD community, Not willing to participate in these things.

Be mindful, or you can and will get issued, and you will take it as a lesson and avoid making those strides in the future.  Again, this likely wont get you banned, but it will get you a warning from one of the Administrative team.  If you want to be a raging pheromone charged free loving psycho, so be it, but dont publish it on the City channel, in front of the masses who may not be comfortable, keep it to a small setting and work others into understanding that your character has a couple bricks falling from the chimney or some quirky criminilistic traits.

Also keep in mind, that these things will reflect you should you wish to build a reputation like that.  It will follow you and it will make things difficult in the future, not impossible.  The forums are a great place for feedback but also a feeding pit for hungry trolls, know who the core players are that will give the best feedback and listen to them, and dont let those who consistently slang insults and venom bring down your gameplay experience.

Also, have fun, Aetolia is about creativity, immersion and creating an alternate reality.  But have understanding and knowledge or you will be shot down if you dive in claiming to be the greatest scientist ever to exist in sapience set on discovering the ins and outs of the underhalls, or taking over a city and claiming it as your own.  The divine, guild, and players will help you open up to something so drastic, but dont claim it off the isle.

Lots of love, and good luck, this has been my two cents.

Tralendar

Eleanor said:

Because when you do it as roleplay, you are engaging me as a roleplayer, and I (with my integrity as a roleplayer, self-imposed but something I value) am expected to respond in roleplay. That means I have to consider, hmm, my character's flesh has just been withered and she's being grabbed onto by a dude who's probably got the physical advantage, she's likely in agony and can feel all her cells withering and dying and oh god this is reminding me about how I got bitten by a white-tail and got necrosis of the flesh help help I'm having an episode.

If it's in combat I get to go 'oh balls that's a decay emote, he doin' damage, I better run' or a similarly less in-depth response. There is a double standard in regard to what a roleplayer is expected to react to and in what depth, but that's the rope you walk in a game that combines both fightey-combat-mechanics and serious-business-roleplay.

Edit: for clarity, I guess what I'm saying is, engaging in emotes expects response in emotes, but engaging in mechanics tends to expect response in mechanics (physically GTFOing being the example here)

You're saying that if I ran in and emoted smacking you with a stormhammer that sent you reeling to the ground with immense pain, you'd stick around vs. me just whacking you with the real thing?  Wouldn't your fight/flight response be the same in both situations if you are sticking to your RP in that you'd run away in both situations?  It's not like it's unprecedented that Tral hits hard and kills people and your character isn't a fighter.  Why in the world would your character stick around for my RP fight when mechanically I'd be very likely to kill you?  Every character is at least a competent fighter (all those mobs you murder will get you that), but there are the true masters of fighting out there and claiming to be on par with them when you aren't mechanically is like trying to beat someone in a footrace when they get a level track and you have to run up a 45 degree incline.

Seems like a bad roleplay to me to do something like that as your role becomes inconsistent with itself.  You have to roleplay within the mechanics, not god mode your character above what he can mechanically do/put up with.  I'm not saying you can't mix and match them by any means, but you should respond similarly to both things if I just ran in out of the blue and did that.  Nothing wrong at all with using mechanics to RP with and they aren't separate realms.  Half the stuff I've done for RP over the years came about through mechanics of the game and that RP was only enhanced and reinforced by the mechanics.  You aren't likely to see me running around paramoting at people, but you also don't see me breaking character either.