Roleplay Courtesies

Haven

This discussion was created from comments split from: Quick RP Questions.

Setne

What is the best way to approach someone, especially someone of an enemy org, to see if they'd be willing to get involved in some rp that, in a way they can't really control the overall flow of. Example being, kidnapping someone and torturing them.

Haven

Setne said:

What is the best way to approach someone, especially someone of an enemy org, to see if they'd be willing to get involved in some rp that, in a way they can't really control the overall flow of. Example being, kidnapping someone and torturing them.

I'd say just do it and pray they run along with it and don't PK you. Also be realistic unless you've got delphinium cookies or something.

Emelle

@Setne: Maybe others will disagree, but I think sending someone an OOC message asking if they'd be interested in such a plot might be a good idea.

Minarael

I definitely think you should send an OOC tell or message before engaging in kidnapping/torture RP. 

Aarde

Minarael said:

I definitely think you should send an OOC tell or message before engaging in kidnapping/torture RP. 

That spoils the surprise.

Areka

It may spoil the surprise, but it's also easier/more accessible with making certain the other party is OK with what is going on (same thing with rape RP, etc). Some players are cool with this and just roll with the punches, but with how many drama/detail/content thresholds the player-base has, at least in my perspective, it's better to play towards the side of consideration in these areas, than assumption. 

Minarael

Some people can have serious emotional triggers attached to violent RP like that. You don't know what kind of junk you may be digging up by what you think is not that big of a deal. 

If you want to keep an element of surprise, ask in advance, then work out an understanding that it will happen at any point within X amount of time. Make it a large enough block of time that they will probably put it in the back of their mind. Then, bam, surprise retained, sanity intact. 

Atrapoema

You people make me wish FirstAid was a proper curing system. If it was, opting out in the form of killing/attempting to kill the aggressor would be better for all involved, rather than checking ahead OOC. Just my opinion.

Toz

Going to go out on a limb here and say that he was not being serious with his post. >_>

Setne

I was only using it as an example, though that doesn't mean, if someone is up to that line of rp it's off the table. While the line of rp I'm following may involve kidnapping, torture does not play a big part in it and is a sort of last resort in an ic sense. The question largely involves how to get someone involved in a line of rp that they have no control for the majority of it and are largely regulated to reacting.

Aren

I would just ask. Most of the time you should try to involve someone who you know will RP and not just, lol get out of shackles and PK ALL. Checking first through an ooc message or tell will assure it'll at least be worth it.

Teani

@Setne: Some people are more open for that kind of RP than others. I'd totally be down for just about anything, surprise or no (at least if there's an emote starting things up that makes sense), but I know there are some who would just escape and call on friends to PK your donkey first moment they get without even trying to figure out what's going on.

Perhaps checking if they're simply down for some RP (no details) and letting them know they can opt out at any time if things get out of line is a better way.

Irruel

If I forcibly, through use of pvp abilities, abducted a player-character - ought I check first?
If so, why? How is it different from just pking them?

At what point does it become griefy?

I'm not saying we shouldn't ask first. Particularly if part of the abduction is intended to be torture; I get the need to be oocly courteous with that sort of thing. Just like I wouldn't expect everyone to watch 'Hostel' whether they were comfortable with it or not.

I'm just wondering where the line (roughly) is. I mean, read the lycan attack messages. Really read them, I mean. Every spar is torture, it's just that nobody reads them, yet RP is different. More personal. So where is the line?

Teani

In a way, I think it's up to each and everyone to let those they end up RPing with know if they feel uncomfortable in a specific situation. If not it's up to them to walk away. The only problem I see is when those who are 'ambushed' by RP immediately take it to PK or bring in others to do the PK for them. Might not be as common now as it used to be, I don't know.

As @Irruel says, normal attack messages are torture. They can be really gruesome, but it's part of the game mechanics. Use the same thing in an emote and it's suddenly a bit more harsh, explicit. If you bring that into the RP, you'd better be sure you know who you RP with, or at least, if they seem like/are backing away, let them and apologize if it made them uncomfortable to prevent awkwardness later on.

Grieving is something I've always connected to repeatedly going after someone else who is clearly not interested in that kind of interaction, whether it be RP or PK, and having said asked them to back off.

Just my thoughts.

Minarael

Not everyone chooses to engage in PK. It's actually fairly easy to avoid if you never want to deal with it. RP is a lot more emotionally visceral than PK, in any case. I can tell you that I've never really gotten emotionally invested in the 'scene' created by PK messages. I'm too busy focusing on being attentive to what is or is not sticking and plotting my next move to think about the fact that my spine just got yanked out or whatever. Plus if I am truly disturbed the idea -idea- of those messages, I can code around them and never have to actually see them in combat with subbed messages.

I get your point, but it is not at all the same thing.

Further, there is a very real reason why games that -focus- on heavy topics have 'ask ooc before engaging in exceptionally violent or traumatic scenes'. Even in games where such things are commonplace, there is an exception made for stuff like this. 

I don't know if anyone arguing in favor of 'do and let them respond' have ever experienced a triggered emotion. I have. I haven't for a very long time because I've worked my way through the trauma which caused it. I do know that nobody should ever be put into a situation that will cause one that is super easy to avoid. I do know that they can be caused by things that -seem- innocuous to other people, and that often the person who experiences them has some idea what will induce them.  I know that some people have triggers that are text-based. If they -read- about something that is akin to what they endured, they are triggered. I never had that issue, but others do. 

It does not detract from your potential RP to fire off a quick, "Mind if we engage in -intense scene brief desc-?" beforehand. It does not lessen this game, nor restrict anyone's ability to do crazy, intense, disturbing, violent RP. It potentially saves someone from having to deal with some very sucky, awful feelings and physical reactions. 

Teani

Teani said: If you bring that into the RP, you'd better be sure you know who you RP with...

Minarael

Yea, the original question was essentially about new RP partners. If you already -know- the other party and understand how they'd react, that obviously changes how you'd go about initiating the RP. You still might want to ask in advance. There are some folks I would do that with and some folks I wouldn't that I've RP'd with for years. Some of the 'I'd check first' people have gleefully engaged in some pretty screwed-off stuff, and declined others. 

Haven

Hmm... I'm torn on this subject mainly because of the fact that the game is centered around and promotes this sort of violence. I mean, we're not playing the Sims here. For any sexual act, willing or otherwise, I feel that one should always ask if their partner is comfortable with that sort of experience prior to engaging if and only because those themes aren't the sort of kits/themes/whatever you want to call them that IRE promotes/centers their games around. They're not standard or given themes to the game. Those sort of developments are purely inventions of the "mature/adult" players in the community.

However, for kidnappings? Torture? Or any non-sexual violence in general, especially towards the enemy? That avenue of conflict is one of the given and expected themes of the game. If we're going to ask for permission for that sort of thing then... you might as well be asking people to ask for permission before they role-play with one another period and that seems silly to me.

If someone is going above the standard set then I don't see a problem with someone stating "Hey, this is too much for me." and leaving or even asking the person to tone it down.

Minarael

IRE really doesn't cater to that sort of RP. IRE RP, by and large, is fairly tame. Yes, the themes are dark. Yes, sometimes the RP goes to dark places. But for the most part, IRE roleplay is pretty fluffy. 

If you don't see a problem with someone saying, "Hey, this is too much for me," then why do you see a problem with saying, "Hey, are you interested in some rape/torture/extreme violence?" first?  Saying, 'this is too much for me' is after the fact. Damage is done. Asking first prevents any potential issues. Why is this a problem?

There are games that have a much more consistent element of dark RP, games where players may be put into indentured servitude, murdered, raped, and have lots of other very, very nasty things happen to their characters commonly. And nearly every one of those that I have encountered has very strict warnings about asking for OOC permission before engaging in certain types of RP. 

If an RPI with darker themes than this game, with an expectation going in that your character is not going to have a good time of things, that bad things WILL happen to you, is still asking for players to take a little OOC consideration about the potential ramifications of their actions, why is it so hard to do here? 

If you think this is an overreaction, then I am glad you have never had to deal with what some of us are trying to explain. 

FYI - as a blanket rule, I'm pretty much always down for whatever crazy RP people come up with. I don't have triggers. I don't have squicks. I'll follow along with most things, I am comfortable being on the losing side of RP. I'm comfortable losing control of my character's surroundings and outcomes. I like challenging scenarios for my characters to deal with.  I am not challenging this on my behalf, but because I know that it does very profoundly affect some people.

Toz

That sounds like an awful line to get randomly. 'Hey, up for some torture?' - although the RPI I play has you oocly consent to any mature content, including torture. Otherwise you have to fade to black it.

Haven

Minarael said:

IRE really doesn't cater to that sort of RP. IRE RP, by and large, is fairly tame. Yes, the themes are dark. Yes, sometimes the RP goes to dark places. But for the most part, IRE roleplay is pretty fluffy. 

I can't help but say that you're wrong here. There is an abundance of skill messages, mechanics, classes, lore, Admin-driven events, artwork, etc that say otherwise. Some players might be fluffy or even a portion of the communities might have become tame but the game itself is not.

Minarael said:

If you don't see a problem with someone saying, "Hey, this is too much for me," then why do you see a problem with saying, "Hey, are you interested in some rape/torture/extreme violence?" first?  Saying, 'this is too much for me' is after the fact. Damage is done. Asking first prevents any potential issues. Why is this a problem?

Rape and other sexual things of that nature are NOT standard features of the game. Therefor players should and I'd dare even say must ask permission prior to engaging in that sort of thing with another player in the game. However, torture and violence ARE standard features of the game. It'd be like a customer purchasing Grand Theft Auto knowing full well that the game is about drugs, sex, and violence in the criminal life and complaining when they're exposed to a pair of breasts while their interest is solely in the driving aspect of the game.

"They should've asked my permission prior to showing me the scene with those tits covered in <drug>!" ...well. I'm not sure what else you could have expected with a game like this. If you're only interested in the driving aspect of the game, either go play a different game focused solely on driving or prepare yourself to deal with the fact that you might be exposed to any one of the game's standard features and themes at any point in time.

 

Areka

Torture and violence aren't active standards for roleplay, and putting it purely on the victim is encouraging rape culture (it's just the victim's fault/responsibility) just as much as if you'd abused that way. Violence is PART of Aetolia's environment and scenery but this does not make it okay to force it in a personal manner upon others, let alone without checking with them for their thresholds. 

Mechanics can set off triggers as well - it has happened. Mechanics can be gagged so as to not face such again, as well, meanwhile roleplay gives the options of ISSUEing, IGNOREing, and qqing, all of which can have greater consequences socially and impact gameplay in a very different way than gagging an automated line. This becomes the players in the playerbase being -willfully negligent and disregarding- the well-being of their fellow players. Aetolia has lost potential players, and existing players, due to such boundaries not being considered or respected.  Aetolia is also PG-13 - what you do WITH CONSENT in your personal RP with other people is on you, but that needs to be considered. 

Minarael

Haven said:

Minarael said:

IRE really doesn't cater to that sort of RP. IRE RP, by and large, is fairly tame. Yes, the themes are dark. Yes, sometimes the RP goes to dark places. But for the most part, IRE roleplay is pretty fluffy. 

I can't help but say that you're wrong here. There is an abundance of skill messages, mechanics, classes, lore, Admin-driven events, artwork, etc that say otherwise. Some players might be fluffy or even a portion of the communities might have become tame but the game itself is not.

Note the -RP- part of my statement. Mechanical background is not RP. 

Minarael said:

If you don't see a problem with someone saying, "Hey, this is too much for me," then why do you see a problem with saying, "Hey, are you interested in some rape/torture/extreme violence?" first?  Saying, 'this is too much for me' is after the fact. Damage is done. Asking first prevents any potential issues. Why is this a problem?

Rape and other sexual things of that nature are NOT standard features of the game. Therefor players should and I'd dare even say must ask permission prior to engaging in that sort of thing with another player in the game. However, torture and violence ARE standard features of the game. It'd be like a customer purchasing Grand Theft Auto knowing full well that the game is about drugs, sex, and violence in the criminal life and complaining when they're exposed to a pair of breasts while their interest is solely in the driving aspect of the game.

"They should've asked my permission prior to showing me the scene with those tits covered in <drug>!" ...well. I'm not sure what else you could have expected with a game like this. If you're only interested in the driving aspect of the game, either go play a different game focused solely on driving or prepare yourself to deal with the fact that you might be exposed to any one of the game's standard features and themes at any point in time.

Torture as a mechanic is (generally) less intense than suddenly finding yourself immersed in a detailed and drawn-out torture scene being roleplayed. (Though Moirean pointed out to me that mechanics can be just as problematic on occasion). There is a difference here you are failing to understand, or respect. 

Stuck in a quote box again.  

Edit: Fixed trapped quote box issue. Just hit the source button (looks like a piece of paper with the less than and greater than symbols on it "<>") and add <br> after the /blockquote stuff. This means break into a new line. Then reclick the source button to return to normal.

Phoenecia

Violence and gore and all that dark stuff DOES exist in the game, but there's a marked difference between when it happens in PK and when it happens when you're emoting it. In PK, there's no real emotional investment in it. It's all flavor text that flashes by while you're fighting, and for the most part, you disregard it because it's 'useless' information aside from the amount of damage it does to you or what afflictions the attacks give. It might be your character that's fighting, but they're not really 'reacting' to anything beyond you mashing buttons for them to attack.

With emotes, it's different. Someone is taking the time to write out doing things to your character - in excruciating detail, if they want - and you have the time to respond. There's build-up, there, and there's also a great deal of attachment. With emotes, players have a lot of control over the situations their characters are in, and I'm pretty sure most people don't take too kindly to having something shoved down their throat that they don't enjoy.

Asking a person what they're okay with or how far they're willing to go with something is a courtesy thing that, to me, says that you actually care about the person you're RPing with, and it also gives the other person some measure of control in regards to the situation. Even if you think you know someone well, you never really know what they're comfortable with until it comes up. Asking beforehand can mean the difference between an interesting and engaging story arc, or things falling apart and leaving both players unsatisfied.

Some people go along with certain lines of RP even if they find it uncomfortable because they feel they have no other choice. Some people go along with it, even long after they've been made utterly miserable because they feel they don't have a way out, and the other person isn't willing to tone things down even when asked. It's not always about YOU or what YOU find interesting because what you think is awesome might be something the other person hates, and clearing that up beforehand is really important if you want things to be fun for everyone involved and not just you.

Haven

Areka said:

Torture and violence aren't active standards for roleplay, and putting it purely on the victim is encouraging rape culture (it's just the victim's fault/responsibility) just as much as if you'd abused that way. Violence is PART of Aetolia's environment and scenery but this does not make it okay to force it in a personal manner upon others, let alone without checking with them for their thresholds. 

 

Torture and violence aren't active standards? Indorani, Carnifex, Necromancy are just a start to some of the content in the game that state otherwise. I'm an avid dog lover and I must say it really, really hurt and disturbed me reading a lot of those messages regarding training your warhound but I also understood what I was signing up for when I clicked Agree to the Terms of Service and chose to login. Aetolia has made it clear what its themes are and not only with just the mechanics but in the standard of role-play that both the Admin and community encourages. There's even a help file as to what role-play is and considering the prevelent themes and standard features... it's not a large leap in getting an idea of what can be done.

Secondly, there is a real and distinctly large difference between a game and real life. As a player in a game, you have the absolute power to control your level of involvement in any situation that befalls you at any given time. No matter what or when it is. There's ignoring the person and logging out of the game, both of which are the equivalent to gagging any lines delivered by the game. There's the abundance of artifacts and escape abilities to allow you to escape conflict. There's the issue system to get the Administration involved to review what's up. Hell, if you really wanted to, you can even reject anything that's happening to you via emote. The list simply goes on.

In real life, however, there is no such option. You can't just opt out of any situation any time you want. The same logic is not and should not be appliciable for the real world. Unfortunately, it's very real and very possible to be forced into participating in something, heinous or otherwise, outside of a game.

Areka said:

Mechanics can set off triggers as well - it has happened. Mechanics can be gagged so as to not face such again, as well, meanwhile roleplay gives the options of ISSUEing, IGNOREing, and qqing, all of which can have greater consequences socially and impact gameplay in a very different way than gagging an automated line. This becomes the players in the playerbase being -willfully negligent and disregarding- the well-being of their fellow players. Aetolia has lost potential players, and existing players, due to such boundaries not being considered or respected.  Aetolia is also PG-13 - what you do WITH CONSENT in your personal RP with other people is on you, but that needs to be considered. 

I don't believe that to be true. It's the person with the lower threshold that's being inconsiderate of the standard set by the game.

It's like a very conservative family going to a nudist beach where the standard is clearly and explicitly stated then approaching a person taking their pants/top off and saying, "Excuse me but I find that offensive. You're being inconsiderate for not asking my permission first prior to removing your clothing."

Minarael

It's pretty clear we are going to have to agree to disagree, so I'm going to hop off this train of fail. 

My point: It takes a moment to inquire with someone prior to engaging in intense RP, costs you nothing, and prevents emotional fallout. Every reason to do it, none to avoid it.

Your point: Mechanics already exist that imply or clearly state intense concepts. Therefore, consent to intense concepts in RP is implied by logging on. Folks should just suck it up or pick up their toys and play in a different sandbox. 

No way to bridge these two, so I suppose folks who don't see things your way can just avoid interacting with you when possible. 

Irruel

How about responsible surprise then? I use pvp mechanics to kidnap and immobilise a player. It is a complete surprise to them, and they are helpless. I've even gone so far as to remove their ability to ask friends for help, using a telepath friend.

Then, I send them a quick ooc tell asking them how far it can go? Do we just agree to pretend we had a long drawn out torture scene that ended with X result, and skip straight to that result, or would they prefer to play it out?

That way, the surprise of the abduction is there, but the player isn't completely oocly ambushed.

Phoenecia

This post is big and kind of soapboxy, so I'm spoilering it in case people don't want to read it.

[spoiler]The big thing some people neglect is the whole courtesy thing. Yes, Aetolia is a dark game. Yes, there's some really effing messed up crap all over the place. But this is also a multiplayer game. If you're going to take the time to RP with someone, you have to consider whether or not THEY are actually going to appreciate what you're doing.

In another game I played, I had just started up a character, and I got dragged into a big plot. A bit later down the line, the person largely responsible for it asked if it was okay if my character got kidnapped, or beaten up and tortured, and asked me what exactly I'd be okay with. I said I was fine with it, and I felt like I was really involved in the storyline because the person I was RPing with actually asked for my input, and set things up for my character to escape if I wanted. Never once did I feel trapped or forced into anything. If said person had just randomly decided to grab my character and hold them hostage, I'd have reacted way differently, and probably not have gone along with the plot at all in the first place.

In a similar vein, say I wanted to have my character drug and rape someone they'd been flirting with, and just pushed through that line of RP to the end because I thought it'd be fun and interesting. If I had learned later that the person I'd been RPing with really didn't enjoy that interaction, but didn't speak up because they didn't want to offend, I'd feel like a jerk. If I had asked them about it beforehand and said 'Hey, just so you know, I'm thinking about having my character do x to your character. Are you alright with that? We don't have to if you don't want to'. It gives them at least some kind of warning, but also makes it clear that they have a choice. And hey, maybe asking them might make them more receptive to what you want to do, and then everyone is happy.

Same thing with torture. Say my character has another character in their clutches, and I think it'd be an awesome idea to hack the other guy's arm off. Or hey, why not maim their genitals while I'm at it? Something like this is a big deal, and from a certain standpoint, not easily fixed once it happens. If the other character is tied down, for example, would the player feel like they have a way out or a way to avoid getting limbs lopped off? Would I know for sure if the other player is enjoying this line of RP or are they just resigning themselves to going along with it?

That's why it's important to ask. If you want things to be enjoyable for the people you interact with, it's important for you to be on the same page. You have to be at least a little bit mindful about what you're forcing onto people. You may have a particular story in mind for your own character, but they're not the only character who matters. And ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS make it absolutely clear to the other player that they can drop out of whatever it is you're doing - even if it means completely retconning the whole scene, or just ending it abruptly. It's not hurting you to ask if the other player if they're okay or not okay with something, or if they're enjoying themselves. You are NOT a mind reader; NEVER assume that someone is enjoying one of those touchier RP subjects.

People seem to forget that some people go along with some RP because they feel like they're forced to. Why don't they speak up or try to get themselves out of the situation? Maybe it's because they don't feel like they can. Maybe they're worried about upsetting you or ruining 'your' story if they just suddenly drop out. We all play this game to have fun, but if you're going to drift into potentially uncomfortable subjects like rape, torture, or SAW-sadistic levels of maiming and violence against another character, you really want to make sure they are actually enjoying it.[/spoiler]

Haven

I just don't believe this stance makes someone inconsiderate or a train of fail. If these things weren't a norm/standard in the game then I'd agree with you 110% but the fact of the matter is, they are. Fortunately, if something does bother you in any way or goes beyond your personal threshold you have the option of simply leaving/ignoring/rejecting the situation in an abundance of ways.

I mean... we've had gods kidnap player character babies, rip people's eyes out, possess their bodies, inflict psychological traumas and curses on player characters, etc. Are they inconsiderate too for not asking those involved first? Where does it end? :-S

But fair enough. We'll agree to disagree.

Phoenecia

Irruel said:

How about responsible surprise then? I use pvp mechanics to kidnap and immobilise a player. It is a complete surprise to them, and they are helpless. I've even gone so far as to remove their ability to ask friends for help, using a telepath friend.

Then, I send them a quick ooc tell asking them how far it can go? Do we just agree to pretend we had a long drawn out torture scene that ended with X result, and skip straight to that result, or would they prefer to play it out?

That way, the surprise of the abduction is there, but the player isn't completely oocly ambushed.

For me personally, the minute someone starts using PvP stuff on me, I automatically assume they're just out for the 'lolpk', and aren't interested in RPing at all, and I avoid them entirely even if they do want to RP. Even with the OOC tell, I'd probably be all '**** no, why should I go along with it? I have other things I want to do'.

If you do that sort of thing, you're still pretty much 'trapping' them into going along with whatever you want to do. You've already captured them, and you're only presenting them with the option of 'how far do you want to take this' instead of 'are you okay with being kidnapped'; what control do they feel they have with that first option?