Announce 2149 & 2150

Illikaal

Stathan said:

2. Comet kick isn't used to troll, contrary to what Illidan thinks. It's designed so you can roam combos around to stay ahead of parry, because there is no guarantee you will be able to break both legs in a timely fashion to get BBT kills. However if you can get the double break and pull off comet, you effectively can prone them easy enough in 2-3 combos, get off a single or double bbt, and repeat the action again before numb arms is gone.

I guess you didn't know that I mained monk for 2 years, and my alt is also a monk, and doesn't have any other classes. I took down the worst, and the best, so I'm pretty sure I know what the class is and isn't capable of, because I've kept up with the updates. There's really no such thing as a 'timely fashion' with monks, because they're not exactly time based. Hell, even if that were the case, you could just argue that "You can't get 2 arm breaks in a timely fashion." since its more or less the exact same thing. Cometkick is just an incredibly redudant skill BECAUSE you don't have to land the cometkick to kill the target to begin with, unless you just want to toy with your opponent. You're already roaming your combos across bodyparts to stay ahead of parrying and pre-restoration to begin with, in an attempt to get a double arm break. You could do just that in roughly the same time it takes to get a double leg break. The only difference is that when you get the double arm break, you land the cometkick and their parry is gone. If you get the double leg break, its a guranteed kill, provided you're dexterous. 

Stathan

Illidan said:

Stathan said:

I guess you didn't know that I mained monk for 2 years, and my alt is also a monk, and doesn't have any other classes. I took down the worst, and the best, so I'm pretty sure I know what the class is and isn't capable of, because I've kept up with the updates. There's really no such thing as a 'timely fashion' with monks, because they're not exactly time based. Hell, even if that were the case, you could just argue that "You can't get 2 arm breaks in a timely fashion." since its more or less the exact same thing. Cometkick is just an incredibly redudant skill BECAUSE you don't have to land the cometkick to kill the target to begin with, unless you just want to toy with your opponent. You're already roaming your combos across bodyparts to stay ahead of parrying and pre-restoration to begin with, in an attempt to get a double arm break. You could do just that in roughly the same time it takes to get a double leg break. The only difference is that when you get the double arm break, you land the cometkick and their parry is gone. If you get the double leg break, its a guranteed kill, provided you're dexterous. 

Even as Dex, with a double leg break I only get in 2 BBTs and that doesn't guarantee a kill vs anyone with sip bonus or con artifacts. However, every time I throw out comet kick to set up for leg breaks, I get a double break, typically 2 BBTs, they stand and I rebreak the legs before they have parry/guard back for the final BBT.

Illikaal

I don't have that problem 95% of the time. 

Restoration is 4s of salve balance + 1 potential second of mending balance. 2 leg breaks = 8s of Resto bal and 2 potential seconds of mending bal. 

You land a double leg break, and your combo takes up 3s of bal (assuming dexterous.)

You land 1 bbt as soon as you regain balance (after 3 seconds) which means the target has 5 seconds of resto bal and 2 potential mending balances.

You land a 2nd bbt as soon as you regain balance (3.44 seconds later.) leaving them with 1.56 seconds of resto bal to deal with, and another 2s of mending bal still accounted for.

Lets say they tree or renew away the first mending break. Cool. They still have one more, and they're still off salve balance for 1.56 seconds when you're back on full balance.

Assuming you use the in game queue system (which is what I do), you shouldn't have much of a problem landing that 3rd bbt within that 1.5 second latency window. Even then, they'd still take roughly a half second to respond to that mending break that was attached to their second resto break. 

tl;dr Numerically speaking, a double leg break should gurantee 3 bbt's. 

Benedicto

That's without any passive skills ticking on you (vibes, ents, rites etc) Or any hindering prone abilities. 

Illikaal

The only thing that I could think of that would cause problems are balance upsetters, which monks are 100% immune to. If vibes on their own, at that point, would slow you down enough to deny that 3rd bbt, then I'm not sure you could have gotten there in the first place. I also don't see how rites would slow you down either. 

Xavin

An unlucky plague tic could do it. Dat double leg break.

Benedicto

Yeah I got carried away with listing passive stuffs when I said rites. With regards to ents it wouldn't have to be just the balance upsetters, you could get unlucky with lethargy tick from bubonis/slime I forget which one. Vibes would be plague like Xavin said. All of those things have annoyed me by occurring on more than one occasion.  It just takes the slightest delay.

Having said that, if you Tekura right, a double arm break is 99% of the time an indication of a 3 BBT win. In order to get it you've had to spread your tekura around and prep has already been done on legs so it should take two combos at most to get that double leg break. Resto will likely have been applied to the second arm at this point, buying you the timefor 3 bbts provided you aren't delayed.

Haven

Is it just me or does stupidity seem to be a helluva lot more potent now? Especially among the classes that have to enter 123432423 commands for one combo.

Illikaal

I thought it was just me, and Ezalor called me crazy when I said I was hitting secrets procs pretty damned often.

@Oleis PLZ TO FIX.

Oleis

I'll be honest with you, I have no clue how that could be possible. There is literally a 1 in 30 chance of hitting secrets, and that's only if you're hitting stupidity at all, which is a relatively modest chance in itself. Same for relax insomnia, vial drinking, and trying to move in a random direction.

If this is an issue with the way Rapture randomizes its numbers (which is possible), I'll look at reassigning the chances and seeing if that helps.

Ezalor

Yeah in my tests I really don't see what's so bad about stupidity. Secrets rarely ever happens and everything else the aff does is negligible. I wouldn't even bother using it if it wasn't to cover impatience in the cure order.

Hadoryu

I'm flabbergasted that stupidity still procs secrets. Talk about punishing you for learning skills.

Oleis

Hadoryu said:

I'm flabbergasted that stupidity still procs secrets. Talk about punishing you for learning skills.

That's a fair point in itself.

Kaeus

I seriously considered making a trigger to /yell I DONT WANT TO KNOW ANY MORE SECRETS, given how often I hit that in stupidity. This might also because my offensive round, I do 2x envenom, dsk, and then 2x envenom again (MG/Engage prep). Combine this with the fact that I have to send those commands 2x each to ensure they don't fail...yeah, I hit secrets a lot.

Ilyon

Oleis said:

There is literally a 1 in 30 chance of hitting secrets

1/30 is not a low number, considering how many commands get sent around.

Ezalor

You have to be on balance/eq to use secrets, so it's just every command before your attack command that puts you at risk (beyond standard curing stuff). So yeah, venom classes get screwed more by it, Templars and Syssin especially.

Illikaal

Monks too! Well, at least until Oleis fixes the combo command. 

Stathan

In a spar with Haven, and he checked the log on Teamviewer since I use his system and he had to fix something, I hit secrets 3 times and lost I don't know how many commands, in 1 attempt to combo him. Namely because my combos are stacked so I can hit multiple limbs.

Oleis

I'm all about nuking SECRETS from the list of options. I just wanted to promote, as much as possible, the knowledge that the odds on stupidity actions haven't changed.

Ezalor

If you remove secrets from it, you might as well just nuke the aff entirely and make a second goldenseal anxiety to replace it, because the only purpose the aff will serve (beyond its place in the cure order) will be to annoy the crap out of everyone by forcing them to spam.

I'm not a fan of how the aff works with or without secrets and would rather see it replaced by something else entirely. Or, if secrets will be taken out, just make it an anxiety because forced spam is no fun for anyone and that'll be the only effect left to it.

Irruel

Stupidity is an example of an affliction that made sense 15 years ago, and slowly over time changed from effective to  annoying as people learned to spam through it. Having it do things that are more than just random emotes, does give it a point.

It's a bit like the old illusion system though. Once you accept that its effects are x, y and z, then you can replace the spam with the same proc chance of one of the actual effects. Eg:

Pretend for a moment that aside from spammy emotes like worshiping pipes, stupidity does the following:
1. Movement attempt
2. Skills like secrets that use balance or eq
3. Prone
4. Ridiculously flavoursome nothing.

Now, change stupidity to attempt to proc no more than once per second. Give it a 1/3 chance to proc. When it processes successfully, let it do one of the four above things, but change the off-eq skill to a simple off-eqbal like a raven dive  - something that is 1 second only and unique to stupidity so that we can adjust the length to be balanced (~1sec)

What do we have? Something that has a 33% chance to proc each round, regardless of how many lines you spam each round. When it does proc, we have complete control over the actual effects it causes, because we can adjust them without it affecting other skills in the game.

Hadoryu

Ezalor said:

If you remove secrets from it, you might as well just nuke the aff entirely and make a second goldenseal anxiety to replace it, because the only purpose the aff will serve (beyond its place in the cure order) will be to annoy the crap out of everyone by forcing them to spam.

I'm not a fan of how the aff works with or without secrets and would rather see it replaced by something else entirely. Or, if secrets will be taken out, just make it an anxiety because forced spam is no fun for anyone and that'll be the only effect left to it.

Even though you can spam through it, stupidity still messes up stacked commands; it's certainly not useless. And let's not forget it's the top of the goldenseal stack - that's a good place for an affliction that isn't terribly debilitating, but blocks curing impatience.

Ezalor

Hadoryu said:

Ezalor said:

If you remove secrets from it, you might as well just nuke the aff entirely and make a second goldenseal anxiety to replace it, because the only purpose the aff will serve (beyond its place in the cure order) will be to annoy the crap out of everyone by forcing them to spam.

I'm not a fan of how the aff works with or without secrets and would rather see it replaced by something else entirely. Or, if secrets will be taken out, just make it an anxiety because forced spam is no fun for anyone and that'll be the only effect left to it.

Even though you can spam through it, stupidity still messes up stacked commands; it's certainly not useless. And let's not forget it's the top of the goldenseal stack - that's a good place for an affliction that isn't terribly debilitating, but blocks curing impatience.

Yeah but if you remove secrets, people are just going to send every command they have 5 times to completely bypass it. Which is just annoying for everyone and useless functionally, unless you get excited by the thought of your opponent wasting herbs and venoms I guess.

And yes, that's why I suggested making it like an anxiety. So it blocks curing impatience but doesn't force people to spam the crap out of their commands. That was the entire point of my post.

Hadoryu

There's a lot of nuance there that you're ignoring.

Spamming EVERY command five times is going to slow you down. Spamming every command five times doesn't even work right a lot of the time. You can want to hfp left and hfp right, in the same combo, but you obviously can't spam hfp left then. You generally don't want to spam directions either, venoms/herbs too in most cases and so on.

So it's still going to be a balance to do JUST enough to ensure you only spam as much as you need to, to get the optimum out of your success chance without hampering yourself in other ways.

There might be plenty of benefits to making it an affliction that doesn't require spam in the first place, but those should be seen on their own merits. Without secrets, there is still plenty of impact in having it block 1/3 of commands, however.

Ezalor

No, because if you send the command block all at once, there is no delay. People already deal with stupidity by sending all their commands multiple times at once, secrets provides some penalty to this. Without secrets it's just there to annoy.

Fair point on limb classes that want to target different limbs, but then stupidity is unfair to them since it actually affects them while only making everyone else spam. 

Toz

I think they would be good to get stupidity a new effect entirely. Currently it punishes classes that have to spend multiple commands to get an attack through, but those that don't have to do anything / those who only do a few things aren't punished quite as heavily. I also dislike rng as a whole for combat.

Hadoryu

Spamming does delay your commands, Ezalor. Theoretically you might think it doesn't, but there are milliseconds between each command being executed and when you spam command 1x5;command 2x5;command 3x5, the first of command 3 is going to come in a measurable amount slower than just doing command 1;command 2;command 3.

I'm saying this as someone who spammed stupidity precisely because people regained herb balance more slowly from curing it with herb spam.

Other than that, I think this is mostly getting to a nitpicking stage and I just wanted to make that one point anyway.

Ezalor

Right right. In either case it's an annoying as hell aff in its current or non-secrets incarnation, and I don't think I'm alone in wishing for it to be redone completely.

Haven

Haven said:

ANNOUNCE NEWS #2149
Date: 7/2/2013 at 1:09
From: Oleis
To  : Everyone
Subj: June Liaison Cycle - Round 2

General
-------
- Fitness will now have a 'penalty' balance associated with multiple
uses in the span of 90 seconds. Each use extends the next use's balance
time by a quarter-second and refreshes the 90 second cooldown. You will
be notified of the added balance and the end of the cooldown. [1293]
- Additionally, Fitness will now consume 1.5s of equilibrium in addition
to any balance cost. [1341]

Can we see a similar change to the shield tattoo and shield-like abilities? I would say just copy it over but I'm not entirely sure of the implications it'd have on team-combat, particularly considering that zerg rushes are pretty punishing already and there are ways of stripping shield quite easily in team scenarios.

Vharen

I would say that's a pretty significant change that should probably be discussed properly, but at a glance, I like it. I'd probably go farther with it myself, cause argh turtling, but the concept of "eq cost penalty for successive shield attempts" seems solid.