Class Specific Counters/Imbalances

EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baenCanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
Some classes have certain skills that just blatantly overpower certain classes while not doing much to others. I know class disparity, unique mechanics, etc etc is not a bad thing but I don't think classes should have skills that make them ridiculous to fight for specific classes. I'm sure I'll miss some, but some examples of what I'm talking about:

Stupidity
This aff is just odd really. The normal effect of it is usually just spammed away, the real killer is when it procs something like secrets. Against classes like Monks and Templars (who have to send a huge block of commands for each attack - Monks have the "combo" command but stupidity still treats each kick/punch as its own chance to proc) stupidity becomes infinitely better than against a class that only has to do a single command to attack.

Confusion
As a Mentis user with access to this, I have to say this aff is way too much. It doubles equilibrium time - killer against eq using classes. The balance counterpart, lethargy, only increases balance time by 1 second I think; doesn't really make sense for confusion to double the time. IMO it should be put on par with lethargy so it retains its original use but without being so damn ridiculous. Vampire vs vampire fights usually devolve into who gets confusion to stick first, cause at that point confusion just completely annihilates your offense. It also makes vampires very hard to fight for eq using classes.

Main Gauche
This skill has a chance to deliver a counterstrike and a venom when you hit the Templar. Aside from boosting their already crazy aff rate, this skill just absolutely shuts down any combo class. Tekura user? Your kick lands, they main gauche paralysis, you don't get to punch. Vampire classes as well; slash with weapon, main gauche gives you paralysis, you're unable to follow up with your whispers. (I think) It's bypassed by paralysis, which gives vampires the ability to just slash with curare every time to avoid this skill, but that's a pretty hefty nerf to Praenomen considering you will overlap with the ghast. Other combo classes who don't deliver venoms don't get that luxury. It is possible to follow up with the rest of the combo once paralysis cures but that still introduces a pretty significant slowdown to classes who rely on combo attacks, especially if you are off herb balance when it hits (which is almost certain, Templars already aff like mad).

Astralblur/Wisp Bloodshield
Ahh, my beloved Astralblur. I love this skill and it's an amazing luxury for me, but it completely shuts down a kill route for Mentis users/Lumifairies while not doing much against anyone else. Wisp Bloodshield is similarly annoying as it procs like crazy against a weapon user while doing nothing against other classes.

Passive/Active Curing/Aff Shrugging
This is a big peeve of mine. Why do classes need additional curing/aff ignoring beyond the standard? It makes balancing aff classes ridiculously harder since they might be OP against a class without additional curing while unable to make progress against a class with additional curing. Some classes basically have an extra tree tattoo that cannot be disabled, making it ridiculous for aff classes to make any progress at all on them. Active curing has the tradeoff of taking up your offense to perform it, but it's still crazy against classes that rely on affs. I can trigger purify blood to activate every time a Templar vorpals me and suddenly it becomes infinitely harder for them to kill me as opposed to a class without extra curing. Passive curing is just...ugh. Double parry was essentially removed because it shut down salve classes, passive curing IMO is pretty much the same thing for aff classes.

Those are the ones I can think of right now. I'd like to ask everyone to please be as unbiased as possible when discussing - you may notice most of these are actually nerfs to stuff -I- use, because I have the most experience fighting in my classes. Also to provide more instances because I am sure there are many I haven't thought of/experienced.

I think eliminating these specific imbalances would go a long way to making PvP more enjoyable/balanced all around. I don't want to have to switch to a salve damaging class just to fight Luminaries because of their passive curing, I'm sure people don't want to have to switch to a balance using class just to fight me because of confusion. While complete balance is obviously impossible, balancing should still aim to make each class equally effective against every other class. As is, some classes have specific tools that just make them unbalanced against certain classes.
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KaeusAngweAlexina
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Comments

  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pretty much agree on all of the points listed.

    Stupidity can be resolved by reducing the amount of text blocks that are required for classes. We've already got most of that solved already by the combo ability in most classes. For Templars or any affliction class, you can cut down on the rest by allowing individuals to append whatever toxins/charges they want to use at the end of the syntax.

    For example:
    dhuriv combo Ezalor slash stab aconite curare

    Syssin would be a bit more... difficult since they usually hypno, shadow balance, and dstab in a combo.

    Vampire: slash target curare and whisper blah blah

    Appending commands will go a long way, but they may very well make Stupidity a largely filler affliction. Hard to say.

    Confusion: Agree with this point. Doubling eq seems pretty harsh to some classes compared to lethargy and I don't think having lethargy double the balance is the answer. Bring Confusion down to lethargy's current level. Still potent without being overbearing.

    MainGauche: Yeah, have seen this in action. It's been downgraded in the past, probably still too powerful. Hard to say what it could be changed to though in order to compensate if it was downgraded.

    Astralblur: Pretty unfair to both Luminaries and Vamps. Maybe just change it masquerade when you try to assess the person's health.

    Passive Curing: The multitudes of curing balances that exist already are enough. Extra forms of passive curing are overbearing. I'd be fine with stuff that passively heals health/mana, but curing affs is a bit meh.


  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    The combo appending doesn't actually negate stupidity. Monks can do combo whatever whatever whatever but even though it's one command on the user side it still treats each kick/punch as a separate possibility to trigger stupidity. At least, that's what Benedicto's told me, I haven't tested it myself. If combos were changed stupidity would still be nice, just not as overbearing against combo classes. Swandive/secrets procs are powerful and stupidity is largely used to cover impatience in the cure order (for Mentis users) or as the only aff that eats up focus before anorexia (for venom classes).

     
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  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You missed guarding. As much as I love not having to fight as monk against any class that targets limbs, giving anyone the ability to play BBT Roulette with a limb class is a terrible idea. Guarding prones you and functions like parry - all you have to do as monk against a lycan or something is guard them three times and bbt off of that, while otherwise not moving. It's far, far, far too powerful.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

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    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

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    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

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    Mastema
  • CorlinCorlin Member Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    They should give monks a normal parry option.

    Then tweak guard to only work if you've got all your limbs unbroken or something. Removing guard entirely would mean that getting some people prone for bbt is next to impossible, and we haven't really got much else to kill you with. Axekick is only really powerful if you're prone too, because it's too slow to just.. use.
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    You get people prone by breaking limbs, not by as Toz puts it "playing BBT Roulette." It's nowhere near "next to impossible" or you would just see Monks completely fail against classes they can't use Guard against.

    Also in my (limited and very brief) testing with Conner, axekick doesn't actually do more damage to proned people. Bug maybe?
    image
    AtrapoemaLin
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Keroc said he was working on nerfing passive curing across the board a few months ago in a thread somewhere.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
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    Ezalor
  • StathanStathan Hot springsMember Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    Ezalor said:
    You get people prone by breaking limbs, not by as Toz puts it "playing BBT Roulette." It's nowhere near "next to impossible" or you would just see Monks completely fail against classes they can't use Guard against.

    Also in my (limited and very brief) testing with Conner, axekick doesn't actually do more damage to proned people. Bug maybe?
    Axe is based on head damage, not prone last time I checked it out.

    Usage: AXK <target>

    Like the swing of an axe, this head-aimed kick is somewhat slow but with
    an emphasis on power. Should your opponent's head already be damaged,
    the force of the blow may snap their neck and kill them instantly.
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    I think they have to be prone with a damaged head in order for the chance of instakill to proc, but I'm not 100%.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
  • StathanStathan Hot springsMember Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    Prone and head damaged for the chance of the insta to proc. It's overall damage isn't affected by prone though. And the % chance for the insta is low enough that if you have that much head damage on them and they are prone, you can just BBT.
  • XiuhcoatlXiuhcoatl Member Posts: 248 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    Wait, so they changed AXK from being the old 5% random instant kill? Woah, now I only have to worry about it dealing 2k damage flat. 
    Also on the topic of lethargy, it seems to affect some skills in very weird ways. Flinging seem to be like balance and a half, (Indo) but with soulthirst I've hit hidden lethargy and right when I'm about to hit 1.5 second polespinslashes it doubles the balance time to 3.0ish or even more if I didn't get down to 1.5. 
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only classes that need passive curing/mental resistance is Shaman, but that's only because their offense is incredibly slow compared to the other classes that have passive curing, and largely uncontrolled. They can't reliably stick hindering affs like paralysis, clumsiness, etc much unlike a Luminary or a Templar can. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
    Luthien
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    >:[ Get rid of class specific passive curing all together.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    EzalorLuthien
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you do, make fitness a survival skill, because passive curing is the only way I can break a vlock+paralysis.

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

    AtrapoemaHaven
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some classes can't break a vlock+paralysis. Indorani and Teradrim, for example, have active curing options that can slow down the build up of affs, but no option once they are stuck.
    Mephistoles
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fitness and block to survival! Fix classes accordingly afterwards.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Luthien
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doesn't focus break a vlock + paralysis?
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  • MastemaMastema Member Posts: 298 ✭✭✭
    If I vlock you, you will not be able to focus from memory, touch tree, etc
    Carnifex failing since 2011. Fixes coming Soon ™
  • LunaLuna Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    Alexina said:
    Doesn't focus break a vlock + paralysis?
    e: just confusing the issue, rewriting

    Focus will break it if it's just a softlock (asthma, anorexia, slickness) + paralysis

    A proper vlock will probably include stupidity, which is higher on the focus list and thus you can't focus the anorexia.

    Either way, we all have endgame curing as a lockbreaker, but with its hefty cooldown it's not very convenient.
    Post edited by Luna on
    Illidan said:
     if you ever see me killing someone (newbies especially) it's because I've had good reason to do so
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pfft. Focus is every what, 4 seconds? Most classes can deliver affs much faster than that. A Templar shouldn't have much of a problem keeping the stupidity stuck on the target by looping between the dsk + whatever else they needed for retri. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
    Hadoryu
  • LunaLuna Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    I don't see anyone suggesting that focus alone will tide you over? That's not the point of a lockbreaker anyway.
    Illidan said:
     if you ever see me killing someone (newbies especially) it's because I've had good reason to do so
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That wasn't what I was referencing. I was talking about you saying that stupidity is 'hardly reliable', though it's unclear whether you mean it's unreliable to prevent them from focusing via the stupidity ticks, or it's unreliable to stick since most classes can't pop impatience on them to convert the vlock into a hardlock. 

    In either case, stupidity's real function is to eat up the focus balance, acting as somewhat of a focus anxiety, and prevent the target from focusing off anorexia so that classes that can't hardlock via impatience can still at least keep the target softlocked long enough to do whatever it is they need to do. 
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
                                                                                                    
              
    Hadoryu
  • LunaLuna Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Illidan said:
    That wasn't what I was referencing. I was talking about you saying that stupidity is 'hardly reliable', though it's unclear whether you mean it's unreliable to prevent them from focusing via the stupidity ticks, or it's unreliable to stick since most classes can't pop impatience on them to convert the vlock into a hardlock. 

    In either case, stupidity's real function is to eat up the focus balance, acting as somewhat of a focus anxiety, and prevent the target from focusing off anorexia so that classes that can't hardlock via impatience can still at least keep the target softlocked long enough to do whatever it is they need to do. 
    Yeah, I worded that badly. Rewriting it now and essentially agree
    Illidan said:
     if you ever see me killing someone (newbies especially) it's because I've had good reason to do so
  • EzraxEzrax Member Posts: 407 ✭✭✭
    I thought we were going to be discussing single skills targeting skillsets (chaoscalm, deflect, orb sigil etc) but I was wrong. :(
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To add on another one, secrets time should probably be made uniform and unaffected by recovery. As is, stupidity is more potent against non-Wise statpacks (especially if they hit dat un-endgame-skilled-confusion-enhanced 8 second secrets proc).

    I'd also like to see all the anti-passive stuff added into Survival or something. Banishing ents, detecting/disarming traps, destroying Rites, stuff like that. In the Holy War a month or two ago Luminaries were able to leave their Rites (the fear one) at shrines and people would be unable to sanctify/defile them unless they happened to find a Necromancer/Teradrim on. These skills should all have a hefty channel, obviously, so it's more of a clean-up utility than something to actually give a combat advantage.
    image
    Lin
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You can (or could) pray while in warding, just icewall yourself in.

    image

    image


    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Make warding require the person to be in the room for it to work, or adjacent to it. Make soulchains, gravehands, etc. respect this too. It can get silly otherwise.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    AtrapoemaEzalorDaskalosHadoryu
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure. Make pit work exactly the same. Oh, and vibes. And traps. And anything else that's a room wide attack.

    image

    image


    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

    LuthienEzalor
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Absolutely. It's absurd that you can go on your merry way leaving a trail of obnoxious behind, with only certain classes (or in the case of sentinel, NO class) that can disarm/get rid of it. Maybe area-wide, but nothing much more than that.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    AtrapoemaEzalorHadoryu
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fitness should probably be given a 10-20s cooldown, especially since vamps can dwhisper with it.
    image
  • KaeusKaeus Member Posts: 209 ✭✭✭
    Ezalor said:
    Fitness should probably be given a 10-20s cooldown, especially since vamps can dwhisper with it.
    Thisplz, I'mma never lock you now =(
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