An aLUREing thread

Seir

As a unit, the Shadow side is capable of bringing more together and has far more versatility than we do. Much of the spirit side has legacy mechanics from Achaea and the game suffers from immense power creep and has for ages.

Malok

So, let me get this straight...

You start doing a lesser, and you know that means people will come. You know(you admitted yourself) that Shadow side has superior ranged capabilities. You know that these people are going to come attack you. Instead of creating a solid strategy against a predictable method of killing you(ranged strength of Shadow) you instead run around with no strategy or whatever, then try to bumrush us, then you lose and then you go on the forums and complain about ranged combat(instead of you know, coming up with a better strategy).

Yeah, uh, how about you do something about yourselves instead of complaining about the skills of the other side?

What a joke.

Arbre

I'd make a new thread, but this is only going downhill.  Move on.

Illikaal

Ellenia said:

You forgot to mention Shaman's "grove pull" ( or  whatever it is called) - and nothing stops it except a teradrim or shield\icewall ( which also stops every shadow based skill you mentioned)

I'm not sure why there was a "Nothing stops it except (insert 3 easily accessible things to stop it here)." comment to begin with? That's much like "Behead isn't stopped by anything except paralysis/sleep/web/stun/forced movement/leaving the room/prone". It was to my understanding that quite a few Bloodlochians and Spireans were convinced that absolutely nothing stopped it, despite being told otherwise. They'd probably know that Teradrim are the single best counter to Shamans, if Teradrim were played more. It's always best to test things for yourself, rather than taking the word of someone who probably has no idea what they're talking about, and is just looking for an excuse as to why they lost X battle. 

Also! YOU GAIS ARE FORGETTING ABOUT SHAMANS. We got some stronk ranged stuff. Problem is, nobody plays Shaman because it's apparently too hard. Teradrim apparently suffer from this same problem, because I guess people have gotten to used to Use-these-three-attacks-and-hope-your-target-dies style of offenses. Both classes require quite a bit of thought and skill to use effectively, else you'll only ever be able to kill newbies. You also forget that Shamans can negate a pretty huge chunk of ranged abilities, and as I said previously, have some very powerful ranged attacks of their own. 

There's still some level of disparity between the two sides, but its definitely to a much smaller degree nowadays than ever. The only real problem i'm seeing with 'ranged combat' at the moment is Vampire lure being a long range (5 room not including the room it was casted from) beckon that requires writhing. I'm fine with it being stopped by a slew of things (flood,block,icewall, sitting) and the like, but it being what is essentially a ranged writhe aff is what bothers me. Other than that, we have counters to just about everything these days. Just gotta pick up the classes that counter the others, etc.

/end derail.

Calipso

^ My only issue there with Shaman (and Teradrim as well) is that it requires another class in order to counter it. Seems like a mechanic that is far too dependable upon player investments.

I personally wouldnt mind if Flood deactivated the effects of Shaman Overgrowth and Teradrim Sand in the room, or some such.

Ezalor

I have to say, Lure probably does need some work IMO. At the moment it is basically Doppie Hangedman that also forces movement. Perhaps change it so it doesn't act like a legit entangle, with the writhing just stopping the movement part of it. Make it so when lured you cannot move of your own free will, cannot use escape skills (lightform, blackwind, etc) and get dragged towards the lurer unless you writhe BUT are still able to outcache, attack people, and so on even without writhing out of it.

Dunno how feasible it is to code something like that since I don't think there are any skills that act like that currently in the game.

Seir

Or we just change it to beckon, which is already powerful in its own right.

Also:
An arrow flies in towards you.
It strikes you, gouging a deep and bloody wound.
Health Lost: 1812, cutting.
A prickly stinging overwhelms your body, fading away into numbness.
You are afflicted with paralysis.

Proof that ranged damage needs looking at. You're doing more damage to me at range than an artifacted stormhammer in person

Angwe

H:85% M:93% E:99% W:104% Bl: 112 XP:78% [pb eb] PARALYSIS
dourif has < insulation, rebounding, sileris >
An arrow flies in towards you.
It strikes you, gouging a deep and bloody wound.
A prickly stinging overwhelms your body, fading away into numbness.
H:44% M:93% E:99% W:104% Bl: 266 XP:78% [pb eb] PARALYSIS -2125h
(cutting)

lol

Illikaal

Calipso said:

^ My only issue there with Shaman (and Teradrim as well) is that it requires another class in order to counter it. Seems like a mechanic that is far too dependable upon player investments.

I personally wouldnt mind if Flood deactivated the effects of Shaman Overgrowth and Teradrim Sand in the room, or some such.

Well obviously, you don't know, so allow me to enlighten you. 

First off, ALL of the offense Shaman Overgrowth group/utility skills can easily be stopped by conventional methods, including monoliths, icewalls,  blocking, shields. I know what Teradrim are capable of with their Sand skills, but have not yet tested whether theirs can be stopped by conventional methods or not.  I'll be more than happy to confirm what conventional methods do/do not stop Sand abilities once I find a Teradrim who's willing to test. 

That brings me to my next point. Most (if not all) Overgrowth/Sand abilities cannot be used without their respective environments. Overgrowth/Sand also can't coexist in the same room. Shamans have emergence to remove Sand, and Teradrim have Dessication to remove Overgrowths. They are the BEST ways to counter each other, since one can eliminate the other entirely. Still, you can very reasonably deal with the skills via easy to access methods. 

Moving on to this now: http://pastebin.com/vqH1nAvy

I understand that most of the arrows were from people who spent a large amount of credits on artifact bows (and probably dexterity), but I still don't feel comfortable being hit with that much damage from any ranged attack.That damage was also taken from a 49/49% cutting/blunt audit. The Firelord wasn't super extreme, but that was also with 49% fire audit. 

This past Liaison round, I'd submitted a report about Grove Cage to help remedy this problem. The report was to essentially move Grove Cage from an Grove ability to an Overgrowth ability. The reason behind this is because Shamans, unlike old Druids, have absolutely no way to move their groves round. Grove Cage stops movement similarly to an icewall, except you have to CRASH to get out of it. It also stops LoS projectiles from entering or leaving the caged room. When I'd submitted the report, I had the intention of making it so that the movement restriction was removed from cage, and just the LoS ranged block remained. The reason for this is because Shamans already have a lot of movement impairing effects. Adding a portable cage would put them over the top. I forgot to add that into my report after I submitted it, and (not sure if bug) was unable to unsubmit it to fix it. It was at that point I messaged a few of the Liaisons to say "Oh hey, I forgot to add in my report that I'd like the movement restriction to be removed from the portable cage if it gets approved. Would you please mind adding that into the comments?"

I was then informed that the report was rejected, because as I said earlier, the reason given was "Giving Shamans a portable cage would put their hindering abilities over the top." which is not what I wanted to convey. I was then informed that all of the Liaisons that I sent my request to did not follow through with what I asked, because they were too busy/forgot about it. I don't see what the problem would be with a portable cage stopping incoming/outgoing ranged LoS attacks, because we already have canopy that stops incoming/outgoing area-wide outdoor attacks. I was just more disappointed that the Liaisons didn't do their jobs

Ezalor

Skill disparity etc etc. I'm sure if they wanted to change it to a copy of Beckon it would have been done long ago.

EDIT: Also Daskalos has been sniping me for 2.2k damage for months and I never heard a peep!

Xavin

It's been debated for a long, long time but has never come up in an actual report to my knowledge. that said, I have a lure report sitting for the next time we can submit.

Angwe

Should have made a peep .

But srsly, people on both sides have been crying out against the insane damage arte bows can reach since the old forums. I doubt anyone is surprised to see it's still stupid.

Xavin

The lulzy part about that is that it's been nerfed at least once before.

Illikaal

Ezalor said:

Skill disparity etc etc. I'm sure if they wanted to change it to a copy of Beckon it would have been done long ago.

EDIT: Also Daskalos has been sniping me for 2.2k damage for months and I never heard a peep!

I'm not okay with ANYONE'S snipe doing -that- much damage, including Daskalos'. Its insane either way you look at it. It doesn't matter who's using it on who's side. Nobody should ever get sniped for that amount of damage, period. Low risk, extremely high reward. 

Daskalos

Dexterity    : 21(+6)

Level 3 artifact bow.

 

That's why I do that much. Now imagine if I went dexterous

Ilyon

Stats are capped at 21, so the damage would be coming faster, but wouldn't be higher.

Ezalor

Daskalos said:

Dexterity    : 21(+6)

Level 3 artifact bow.

 

That's why I do that much. Now imagine if I went dexterous

Right, and people hitting you guys for the damage being posted in this thread also have level 3 bows and dexterous. It's the same for both sides really. The same thing is available for both lifer and darkie. Whether it needs to be toned down in general, well, I don't really have an opinion either way. I personally am not a huge fan of ranged combat but it certainly adds a strategic element.

Daskalos

<P>That's what I meant, Ilyon. It would be coming faster. I'm intimately aware of the stat cap, considering it was put in after I got 23 STR and went around 1 smiting vampires a long time ago :)</P>
<P>The bows I don't have an issue with, it's the hammer I do since that WASNT artifact enhanced and was doing what my artifacts do! But my BIGGEST complaint is and always will be LURE.</P>

Angwe

No one is trying to make this into a tether issue, @Ezalor. Arti'd snipe doing a bit too much damage to everyone is the topic, I think.

Serrice

I put seven arrows in a row into someone who was curing through retard and they didn't die Buff unartied snipes plz.

Illikaal

Tbh, i'm perfectly fine with unartied snipes. It's the artied snipes I have an issue with. The removal of artifact bows would make balancing around bow shots a lot easier, instead of having extremely weak nonartied bows, and insanely over the top super artied ones. 

Daskalos

The problem is if you remove artifact bows you rip out the only ranged some of us have.

Illikaal

A simple idea off the top of my head: 

Add bowmanship to weaponry after removing artifact bows. Balance could easily be done around generalized bows. Becoming proficient in bows would then give you access to aiming. It'd eliminate the insane 2.2k damage snipes on decked out bows, while giving everyone some sort of ranged option. It also will make Teradrim's Golem's anti-ranged thing and Shaman stuff useful. 

Calipso

Illidan said:

A simple idea off the top of my head: 

Add bowmanship to weaponry after removing artifact bows. Balance could easily be done around generalized bows. Becoming proficient in bows would then give you access to aiming. It'd eliminate the insane 2.2k damage snipes on decked out bows, while giving everyone some sort of ranged option. It also will make Teradrim's Golem's anti-ranged thing and Shaman stuff useful. 

Give everyone access to ranged combat...

Nothing could go wrong there >.>

Xavin

Well, considering that everyone technically has it via throwing...no, I don't think much could go wrong there.

Illikaal

Xavin said:

Well, considering that everyone technically has it via throwing...no, I don't think much could go wrong there.

Not only that, but considering that everyone could (in theory) buy artifact bows, i don't see why not. 

Calipso

Xavin said:

Well, considering that everyone technically has it via throwing...no, I don't think much could go wrong there.

Throwing a javelin or axe and shooting with a bow are two very different things. If you can throw weapons LoS now, then boy have I been missing out.

Also dont forget that access to a bow means access to meteors too.

Moirean

Anyone can already buy an artifact bow and gain archery as an ability, which is exactly why I got one (meteors + handaxe/charge as a sent was great). People have been asking for years to have archery moved to a general ability, and make arti bows refunded or a slightly better version (archery runes?).

Calipso

Moirean said:

Anyone can already buy an artifact bow and gain archery as an ability, which is exactly why I got one (meteors + handaxe/charge as a sent was great). People have been asking for years to have archery moved to a general ability, and make arti bows refunded or a slightly better version (archery runes?).

Right but as a general consensus those people specially paid to have that ability, also they do not gain the Aim or Wind ability, so they cant really shoot accurately at anyone, only thing they have is meteor. If archery was to be placed in weaponry, then it wouldnt change much in the LoS department since without Aim they will be missing half the time, it would only really give everyone access to meteor arrows.

Edit: Apparently  you can buy aiming >.>.

Moirean

You can buy aiming.