An aLUREing thread

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Owned Part II.

Benedicto

<4087/6352h 5646/6050m 26345e 25055w <e- --> <cspdb>> <100>

Flying in from the north, a projectile hammer slams into your chest, leaving you dazed and winded.

You are afflicted with stun.

Knifing pain rips through your being as Toz's weapon hungrily devours part of your soul.

<1989/6352h 5646/6050m 26345e 25055w <e- --> <cspdb>> <100>bbt e

Here is my audit;

********************************[ Resistances ]********************************

Type           Defences     Miniskills   Armour       A. Total     

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cutting        25%          0%           21%          32%

Blunt          15%          0%           21%          24%

Also had Kaido Projectiles on as well.

Wow.

Toz

I throw at 4.45s. That is a 170 damage warhammer with 17 str!

EDIT: I am also the godunicorn Bat-Thor.

Daskalos

<P>It wouldn't be so bad IF it was stopped by icewalls (unless it is now) and IF lure wasn't so bloody overpowered to prevent shielding. Though, nearly 2k, any 2 Carnifex can kill anyone prone, so maybe it should be tweaked too. If you had 21 STR , maybe. I have to hit a level 3 bow with 21 DEX to hit those numbers.</P>

Moirean

It did 2k, as a blunt attack, against a rather low blunt audit. It's basically the darkie version of handaxes, except the only venom it delivers is camus. 

Toz

1) Yes you do

2) It is stopped by icewalls. You did not have an icewall up.

EDIT: 3) Nearly...4k? 4-2 = 4?

EDIT EDIT: Quit editing and making me have to go back and edit. > : (

Daskalos

Do handaxes stun?

Also, the bigger issue here is lure, but then, lure is the bigger issue 99% of the time and nothing is done about it.

Moirean

Handaxes stun, yes. It's one of their core features for use by Sents.

Toz

Handaxes can deliver a venom just like snipe.

EDIT: And bleed!

Clearly the solution is to delete lure and let me envenom my warhammer.

Daskalos

Your axe does more damage than a handaxe...

Toz

Daskalos said:

Your axe does more damage than a handaxe...

TIL I'm the /Dwarven/ Bat Thor.

Yes, my warhammer does more damage than a handaxe. Sentinel handaxe is an awful comparison (sorry Moi) because 1) its balance was hardcore nerfed by sentinel changes, and 2) they're getting crossbows soon. I have a high damage attack that is both slower than snipe, does not deliver venom, nor bleed. It's minmaxed fairly hard, sure. But you were taking comparable damage from snipe, and that was also throwing in a free venom + bleed - much better DPS/utility. All I'm doing is stealing kills.

Daskalos

The issue I have is the stun + lure. I was spamming shield and couldn't - and as soon as I did, it got meteor'd away.

 

I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to kill me in 7 seconds ranged.

Toz

With 2 highly artied snipers + me + Moirean, that's...not really outside the realm of possibilities. I agree with changing lure, because I hates it, but that's not got much to do at all with hammer axe damage.

Moirean

I was mostly joking (although I do think the utility of stun is fairly significant). Comparing individual skills will always be an exercise in futility. I think things are a bit unbalanced right now, but once Sents get archery that will swing and they'll have the advantage, as Syssin is a neutral class. 

Benedicto

I think my biggest issue with the ranged imbalance at the moment comes from the interference (?) refining ability. Telepathy is arguably the only real ranged ability for the lighters and it's completely negated in lesser fights whereas the ranged darkie abilities work through it. I understand it was done to counter things like radiance and force happening to whoever is extracting. But to have a defensive ability in refining which completely cancels out every offensive ability in a skill tree whilst not having anything to penalize any other class is odd and leaves lighters with very few (basically no) options.

Daskalos

Why do you think us getting Sents with Archery will swing it in our direction?

Sentinels (Duiran) with bolts

Templars with Javelin (lol) (Enorian)

vs

Carnifex Hammerthrow

Cabalist LoS affliction skill (tweak?)

Indorani Doppleganger

Vampire Lure

Teradrim ranged strip.

 

Lycan\Monks\Syssin are non-starters because both sides have them.

 

How is that going to be 'even'?

Ellenia

You forgot to mention Shaman's "grove pull" ( or  whatever it is called) - and nothing stops it except a teradrim or shield\icewall ( which also stops every shadow based skill you mentioned)

Toz

Daskalos said:

Why do you think us getting Sents with Archery will swing it in our direction?

Sentinels (Duiran) with bolts

Templars with Javelin (lol) (Enorian) Supposedly the same as hammerthrow/could be the same as hammer throw, gets venom delivery

vs

Carnifex Hammerthrow adjacent only

Cabalist LoS affliction skill (tweak?) No idea - are there even Cabalists any more?

Indorani Doppleganger Can be orb'd before they cast, also a rite to deal with these

Vampire Lure Kill it with fire.

Teradrim ranged strip. Requires sand in the room, I believe - shamans can counter

 

Lycan\Monks\Syssin are non-starters because both sides have them.

 

How is that going to be 'even'?

Even because you will have a damage-specific ranged attack that works adjacent as well, though yours will also have an ability that can be used with it - how is it 'even' that you all have room control in the form of rites/vibes/traps/overgrowth while all darkies have are vibes/sand? It's not - but that's kinda the point. Darkies tend to have better attacking abilities, and to compensate lifers have better defensive abilities. You guys dig in, it is really hard to get you out.

Daskalos

It needs to be better balanced. Period. The team combat, especially the ranged combat, has needed attention for about 3 years now.

It's Coming Soon. Hopefully.

Nerf Lure.

Moirean

Benedicto said:

I think my biggest issue with the ranged imbalance at the moment comes from the interference (?) refining ability. Telepathy is arguably the only real ranged ability for the lighters and it's completely negated in lesser fights whereas the ranged darkie abilities work through it. I understand it was done to counter things like radiance and force happening to whoever is extracting. But to have a defensive ability in refining which completely cancels out every offensive ability in a skill tree whilst not having anything to penalize any other class is odd and leaves lighters with very few (basically no) options.

Interference can be taken down. Nobody seems to bother, for some reason.

Calipso

Benedicto said:

I think my biggest issue with the ranged imbalance at the moment comes from the interference (?) refining ability. Telepathy is arguably the only real ranged ability for the lighters and it's completely negated in lesser fights whereas the ranged darkie abilities work through it. I understand it was done to counter things like radiance and force happening to whoever is extracting. But to have a defensive ability in refining which completely cancels out every offensive ability in a skill tree whilst not having anything to penalize any other class is odd and leaves lighters with very few (basically no) options.

Golgotha is cancelled in Foci locations and cannot be cast in the area. No defense needs placing up. Telepathy needed a form of block since a simple radiance by standing safely away in the area could make an extractor run and ruin the whole process. A balance needed to be met.

Benedicto

You have to be in the adjacent room and no-one wants to do that with lure on the cards. Besides it can just be put back up again so...fairly ineffective all in all.

Calipso

Daskalos said:

Why do you think us getting Sents with Archery will swing it in our direction?

Sentinels (Duiran) with bolts

Templars with Javelin (lol) (Enorian)

vs

Carnifex Hammerthrow

Cabalist LoS affliction skill (tweak?)

Indorani Doppleganger

Vampire Lure

Teradrim ranged strip.

 

Lycan\Monks\Syssin are non-starters because both sides have them.

 

How is that going to be 'even'?

Luminary Beckon

Sentinel Handaxes

Sentinel Drag

Shaman pull (adjacent)

Shaman Shift (area)

Monk Kaichoke (apparently monk is for both sides.)

Monk/Daru telepathy (apparently monk is for both sides..)



Missed a few there bub.


Edit: Edited

Daskalos

Except you can only take it down one room away, which puts us in range for that whole beast of abilities above that was defended as 'adjacent room only'

Moirean

If you want to use a very powerful ability, which can work without LoS or range, then you have to exchange a few moments of vulnerability for that. If I want to use MY forced movement, I have to ENTER the enemy room. Everything has its costs.

Benedicto

So that applies to Doppies and Lure how?

Benedicto

Also @Calipso I already pointed out that I completely understood about radiance and yes that should be blocked I completely agree. But not to the point where in order to do that it blocks every other telepathy skill. Even though Golgotha got banned all the other domination ents still work. Why not make that the same for telepathy? Or, even the playing field by making interference work against all non-adjacent ranged skills?

Arbre

Bene, I ban you from posting until you downsize your sig.  IT'S TOO BIG.

(inb4 that's what she said)

Seir

Skill disparity exists. Spirit has not had an answer to vast selection of group utility that shadow has had for ages. It used to not be as prevalent before multi-class because Telepathy was mostly exclusive to lifers so we had an answer. Now, Shadow has access to telepathy and most common avenues of conflict (see: lessers) have a means of countering it completely. We have no native classes that use archery, our Monks are countered by interference, we have nothing like lure, we have nothing like Sand Shred. You have access to every useful group mechanic that we do and then some.

I can put a list together again if need be.

Benedicto

Arbre said:

Bene, I ban you from posting until you downsize your sig.  IT'S TOO BIG.

(inb4 that's what she said)

I would but I don't know how!

Moirean

I really don't want to go into this ti-for-tat breakdown of every single skill and its counters. We already have a thread about that. We can discuss this there, but I've already stated that I don't think comparing individual skills achieves anything at all.

It is only when you look at overall potential and how skills work together, as a unit, that you can accurately and fairly gauge team combat. Individual skills will always have their perks and weaknesses. You have to look at the entire arsenal - if you are judging an individual skill, think about it in context of all the other options it will be working alongside.