Bounties

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Moirean

Novices being bountied for hunting in Torston because the defenders from Enorian gave up on killing them after voyria arrows didn't work. Instead of the newbies getting a fight they could have learned from, now they are going to be randomly jumped, and it's probably going to be by someone at top tier. It's a big overreaction and a shame, I think - killing people bashing there creates some good PK, but bountying escalates it.

And these aren't super newbies or obviously alts or anything. At least one of them is a friend I brought in who has never played Aetolia before. 

Malok

Moirean said:

Novices being bountied for hunting in Torston because the defenders from Enorian gave up on killing them after voyria arrows didn't work. Instead of the newbies getting a fight they could have learned from, now they are going to be randomly jumped, and it's probably going to be by someone at top tier. It's a big overreaction and a shame, I think - killing people bashing there creates some good PK, but bountying escalates it.

And these aren't super newbies or obviously alts or anything. At least one of them is a friend I brought in who has never played Aetolia before. 

 Now now Moirean, we all know it's their fault that they are getting jumped and will be killed by someone top tier. They just need to die to get better. It's clearly important for someone like Illidan or Daskalos to come by and slaughter people new to the game. You're clearly in the wrong here. Shame on you. Make sure the next time they're logged off the game they start programming a system right then. Otherwise, I just don't know what to tell you. Deal with it.

Phoenecia

Moirean said:

Novices being bountied because the "defenders" from Enorian couldn't kill them when they went bashing in a village. Instead of the newbies getting a fight they could have learned from, now they are going to be randomly jumped, and it's probably going to be by someone at top tier. It's a complete overreaction.

And these aren't super newbies or obviously alts or anything. At least one of them is a friend I brought in who has never played Aetolia before. 

It's written as plain as day in Enorian's laws that hunting in Torston/Jaru/Arbothia/Tainhelm is an enemyable and bountyable offense. If they didn't die, they'd be bountied, plain and simple. I WAS amenable to removing said bounties and offered to do so as long as reparations were paid, but then they got cheeky and refused, so I left it up.

Now, what I consider to be an overreaction is you enemying me to Spinesreach with a super-vague clause. Namely: "NEGLIGENCE. Causing the Republic harm or otherwise compromising its interests or security through careless behavior or gross negligence in
public service."

Moirean: "You are demonstrating gross negligence in your role as security
aide, which falls under public service."
Moirean: "I think it's about on the same level as bountying novices because you aren't strong enough to kill someone 1/10th your size.

I was just doing what's specifically and explicitly defined in Enorian's laws. You, on the other hand, bountying me in retaliation is kind of going beyond the bounds of what's written in Spinesreach's laws.

Edit: Also, just to be clear, I DID offer an option to get the bounty cleared without any dying involved, but they opted to not take it and got snarky, so the bounties stayed.

Moirean

I didn't bounty you.

Phoenecia

Moirean said:

I didn't bounty you.

I meant enemying, but whatever. The reason for it is still pretty bogus.

Moirean

As is bountying newbies. Only difference is that you've been playing the game more than a week.

Phoenecia

They were bountied, and I did explain that it was a protected area. I offered to remove the bounties if concessions were made so nobody would have to die because I know it's not fun having people out to PK you when you either don't PK or aren't good at it yourself. They refused and got snippy, so the bounties were left as-is.

They were given a chance to opt out, which, if it had been someone else doing the bountying, probably wouldn't have been made otherwise. They refused. Simple as that.

My own rage (though it's more of a LOL) is at being enemied to Spinesreach in retaliation for bountying them, which I do think IS an overraction and kind of lulzy.

Illikaal

Malok said:

Moirean said:

Novices being bountied for hunting in Torston because the defenders from Enorian gave up on killing them after voyria arrows didn't work. Instead of the newbies getting a fight they could have learned from, now they are going to be randomly jumped, and it's probably going to be by someone at top tier. It's a big overreaction and a shame, I think - killing people bashing there creates some good PK, but bountying escalates it.

And these aren't super newbies or obviously alts or anything. At least one of them is a friend I brought in who has never played Aetolia before. 

 Now now Moirean, we all know it's their fault that they are getting jumped and will be killed by someone top tier. They just need to die to get better. It's clearly important for someone like Illidan or Daskalos to come by and slaughter people new to the game. You're clearly in the wrong here. Shame on you. Make sure the next time they're logged off the game they start programming a system right then. Otherwise, I just don't know what to tell you. Deal with it.

Back the hell up. 

1. I haven't been in Enorian for ages. 

2. When -I- was in Enorian and i noticed people hunting Torston, I always gave them fair warning, informing them of Enorian law. Most newbies said "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know." and I'd tell them not to worry, because they DIDN'T know, so I couldn't fault them for it. There were some people though, like Kerryn, Akimoto, and Lyl who knew the laws (after I explained it to them), but insisted on hunting Torston anyhow. Those people I killed with absolutely no problems or any further warnings, because they knew the law and chose to break it. 

3. IF it were me handling the situation, I'd have asked said newbies in question if they knew the law. If they said no, I'd have informed them of the law, and let them be. If they knew the law and continued hunt Torston anyhow, then I'm sorry, but I have to follow the rules of my city. 

4. I honestly don't care that people go "Bawww, a noncom got killed by a top tier combatant." Being a noncom does not make you exempt to the rules of PK. If you don't want to be PK'd, then don't put yourself in a position to be. If a newbie keep coming into a city to attack its citzens, then gets enemied/killed by that citiy's top tier combatants, I wouldn't have a single ounce of sympathy because they brought it upon themselves. 

People often perceive this is 'newbie griefing' and it really isn't. In fact, anybody that looks at it that way just completely infuriates me. If a 10 year old in real life knows how a gun works, shoots and kills someone with it, they're not going to left him off the hook and go "Lol it was a kid." No. They're going to send his ass to jail. 

In -this- instance, I don't know whether the newbies knew the law or not. If they didn't know, then they should have been let off with a warning. If they knew the law and continued to keep hunting, then oh well. I'll personally be coming for their bounties. 

Fenrir

Bountying a novice is stupid. End of discussion.

Toz

I agree, but they were giving me crap because I /didn't/ get bountied tonight, on web.

...I've decided I'm keeping them.

Illikaal

Fenrir said:

Bountying a novice is stupid. End of discussion.

Sorry, but no. If a novice actively came along with Mazzion and Co to raid Enorian, help kill its guards, and know what they were doing, they're going to get bountied. They've got to learn at some point or another that breaking an org's laws are going to result in consequences. I furthermore don't even see why people look at it as 'griefing' when it's just ONE bounty. 

If/When it gets collected, one of two things is going to happen. They're gonna go, "Boy, I sure don't wanna go through that again." and avoid repeating what they did to earn the bounty in the first place, or they're going to act a Calipso, keep doing what they're doing to earn multiple bounties, and then whine about being griefed. 

I don't know why the concept of breaking a city's laws resulting in punishments that the city sees fit (bountying, enemy status, etc) is so hard to grasp, really. 

Toz

Illidan said:

Fenrir said:

Bountying a novice is stupid. End of discussion.

Sorry, but no. If a novice actively came along with Mazzion and Co to raid Enorian, help kill its guards, and know what they were doing, they're going to get bountied. They've got to learn at some point or another that breaking an org's laws are going to result in consequences. I furthermore don't even see why people look at it as 'griefing' when it's just ONE bounty. 

If/When it gets collected, one of two things is going to happen. They're gonna go, "Boy, I sure don't wanna go through that again." and avoid repeating what they did to earn the bounty in the first place, or they're going to act a Calipso, keep doing what they're doing to earn multiple bounties, and then whine about being griefed. 

I don't know why the concept of breaking a city's laws resulting in punishments that the city sees fit (bountying, enemy status, etc) is so hard to grasp, really. 

My issue is more the first thing that'll happen is they will more than likely get a top-tier combatant on them. Sure, they should face consequences for their actions. But at the same time, if some novice wandered in to the Keep and kicked the Wraithlord, I'd probably send a Cohort out to kill them instead of posting an open bounty. More fun for the novice (while still 'conflict'), who gets a fight they could potentially win, and the Cohort gets to feel special/potentially learn something as well.

...Should the Cohort die, then yeah. Curbstomp time, because kid has to die/be punished. But at least give them something fun to play with first, in my opinion, even if it's an obvious alt. Always feels a bit lame to gank someone who doesn't even have a trans skill, but I do recognize the need to do what you gotta do.

Illikaal

Toz said:

Illidan said:

Fenrir said:

Bountying a novice is stupid. End of discussion.

Sorry, but no. If a novice actively came along with Mazzion and Co to raid Enorian, help kill its guards, and know what they were doing, they're going to get bountied. They've got to learn at some point or another that breaking an org's laws are going to result in consequences. I furthermore don't even see why people look at it as 'griefing' when it's just ONE bounty. 

If/When it gets collected, one of two things is going to happen. They're gonna go, "Boy, I sure don't wanna go through that again." and avoid repeating what they did to earn the bounty in the first place, or they're going to act a Calipso, keep doing what they're doing to earn multiple bounties, and then whine about being griefed. 

I don't know why the concept of breaking a city's laws resulting in punishments that the city sees fit (bountying, enemy status, etc) is so hard to grasp, really. 

My issue is more the first thing that'll happen is they will more than likely get a top-tier combatant on them. Sure, they should face consequences for their actions. But at the same time, if some novice wandered in to the Keep and kicked the Wraithlord, I'd probably send a Cohort out to kill them instead of posting an open bounty. More fun for the novice (while still 'conflict'), who gets a fight they could potentially win, and the Cohort gets to feel special/potentially learn something as well.

...Should the Cohort die, then yeah. Curbstomp time, because kid has to die/be punished. But at least give them something fun to play with first, in my opinion, even if it's an obvious alt. Always feels a bit lame to gank someone who doesn't even have a trans skill, but I do recognize the need to do what you gotta do.

I absolutely agree to that. If I had some little Shamen to be like, "Oh hey, go handle this lightweight for me." then I'd do it. And in the same way, if my Shamen failed, then I'd go handle it personally.

Though, the case at hand appears to be "OMG DON'T BOUNTY NOVICES EVER." I absolutely disagree with that. They've got to learn, at some point or another. 

Teani

Toz said:

My issue is more the first thing that'll happen is they will more than likely get a top-tier combatant on them. Sure, they should face consequences for their actions. But at the same time, if some novice wandered in to the Keep and kicked the Wraithlord, I'd probably send a Cohort out to kill them instead of posting an open bounty. More fun for the novice (while still 'conflict'), who gets a fight they could potentially win, and the Cohort gets to feel special/potentially learn something as well.

...Should the Cohort die, then yeah. Curbstomp time, because kid has to die/be punished. But at least give them something fun to play with first, in my opinion, even if it's an obvious alt. Always feels a bit lame to gank someone who doesn't even have a trans skill, but I do recognize the need to do what you gotta do.

I agree with this. I don't think low-tier fighters know much about bounties or how to claim them, mostly because they are considered the province of top tier fighters. Speaking for myself, I know I don't get involved much in that because I don't know much about it, even though I've started to slowly get involved in PK and such.

Say a top tier fighter, who often goes for bounties, notices a novice/low- or mid-tier person on the bounty list. Instead of going after the target, wouldn't it be neat if this person said:

"Hey, this person here has a bounty on them and I'd say they're about as skilled as you. Are you interested in helping out? I can help you with instructions and everything!"

I don't think I've ever heard that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have this feeling that those who are into fighting have a generally good idea on the skills of those around them.

Illikaal

Illidan said:

If/When it gets collected, one of two things is going to happen. They're gonna go, "Boy, I sure don't wanna go through that again." and avoid repeating what they did to earn the bounty in the first place, or they're going to act a Calipso, keep doing what they're doing to earn multiple bounties, and then whine about being griefed.  

Calipso said:

Moirean said:

Novices being bountied for hunting in Torston because the defenders from Enorian gave up on killing them after voyria arrows didn't work. Instead of the newbies getting a fight they could have learned from, now they are going to be randomly jumped, and it's probably going to be by someone at top tier. It's a big overreaction and a shame, I think - killing people bashing there creates some good PK, but bountying escalates it.

And these aren't super newbies or obviously alts or anything. At least one of them is a friend I brought in who has never played Aetolia before. 

Hun when has the Bounty system -not- been abused, especially by Enorian. I've taken it as normality in everyday Aetolian life.

Called it. 

Arbre

Illidan said:

If/When it gets collected, one of two things is going to happen. They're gonna go, "Boy, I sure don't wanna go through that again." and avoid repeating what they did to earn the bounty in the first place, or they're going to act a Calipso, keep doing what they're doing to earn multiple bounties, and then whine about being griefed. 

Or they're going to quit Aetolia.  That's what I don't like about PKing/bountying/enemying newbies. 

Phoenecia said:

It's written as plain as day in Enorian's laws that hunting in Torston/Jaru/Arbothia/Tainhelm is an enemyable and bountyable offense.

They're NOT gonna read the laws of every city/guild/order/House because that's overkill.  I'm in Bloodloch, I know the laws of Bloodloch, why should I go read Enorian's?  That's a ridiculous thing to expect of them.  Illidan's way of going 'hey. Don't bash there yo' first is better, because then they get the benefit of the doubt of going 'oh, my bad' and rolling out somewhere else instead of feeling like they're being attacked in being bountied because of ignorance.  We need to make the game more newbie-friendly if at all possible, not less.

Illidan said:

If I had some little Shamen

Teeheehee, as if we had guild members.

Damonicus

Is there  way to level limit bounties? Like if a novice or younger player say level 50 gets bountied, the only ones that can get any reward for them are within 10 levels +/- of said toon. Sort of like tiered bounties. Just a thought.

Arbre

Keep in mind that everything I've said is based on the assumption of true-newbs.  Unless they give me valid reason to believe otherwise, I assume all newbs are true-newbs.

Phoenecia

The thing people seem to be missing is that they were bountied and then told what they did wrong and why that was the case. They didn't seem at all sorry about it, and even after I offered to have the bounties removed provided they did something to make up for it, they essentially said 'lolno' and started sassing me.

I'm more than willing to allow people to resolve things in ways that don't involve being curbstomp PKed, but if you turn that down AND start being snarky about it? Sorry, but you've lost my sympathy. You've made your bed, so now you've got to lie in it.

Arbre

You came at them with hostility first I think is where people are going (it's where I'm going).  Yes, when they start sassing, just lolno them, but they're gonna feel immediately attacked when you bounty them and then ask them to go make 'reparations' (what do you mean when you say this term, specifically) when they probably don't even know how to spell Enorian.

Illidan said:

If a 10 year old in real life knows how a gun works, shoots and kills someone with it, they're not going to left him off the hook and go "Lol it was a kid." No. They're going to send his bum to jail. 

The problem with this analogy is that life isn't a game we're hoping kids will keep playing (that sounded better in my head).  We need to give a lot more leniency to novices to encourage them to understand that there are rules and consequences to them, but we're not gonna screw you over because you didn't read every help file there.  'You need to stop hunting here because it's against our laws and if you don't Imma have to kill you' is a whole lot more encouraging than '/bounty Well you can go be our indentured servant to not get killed.'

Edhain

When I used to get bounties as a relative newb, I used to think it was cool. I'd feel like I'd done enough damage and now my head was worth monies. It's only later on that I used to get somewhat tired of it, because I arrogantly figured everyone already knew my name and I'd get jumped probably while bashing and have to protect my reputation or whatever by at least putting up a good fight, but as a bright and happy newbie I loved it. 

It was a chance to prove myself not necessarily by beating the person who'd kill me but by not whining about it.

So while I think we should be lenient to newbies (by warning them as Illi does, giving them chances to opt out as Phoe does), they're not exceptions to laws. 

/two cents

Arbre

I'm all for killing smarmy unicorns.

Edhain

That's what I was and sounds like these particular newbies may take after me, judging by Phoe's story. Dunno the details though.

Seir

I also like having bounties on my head as I picture a wanted poster of Seir in Spinesreach that has been defaced by scrawlings of a handlebar mustache, a third eye, etc.

Orus

In my brief stints playing in Eno when Edh was around, I seem to recall you getting smiliarly leveled/skilled people to take care of them rather than  bountying them, Edh.  Or maybe you bountied them and told similarly skilled people to handle it, I honestly am not sure.  Either way,  to me that feels a lot more interesting and gives people a chance to form a realistic and fun nemesis rather than  being rolled by PileofArtifactsfighter#22435.

Which one is more likely to keep people around an in the game?

Daskalos

@Malok - I haven't collected a bounty on anyone other than Borscin and Kaeus in... forever? Why you be trollin', foo?

Calipso

As much defense as is being put into the current bounty system by the same 3 players over and over again (not a shock that they are the same players accused of griefing people out of the game) it is clear the fact that this -same- topic is being brought up time and time again that the current Bounty system is not only flawed by extremely over-abused. As @Arbre said, you cant expect new players to go around reading the laws of every city because "hey they should have known!". This is a game, not a class assignment. 80% of what the bounty system has been giving to Aetolia is exactly as was said above: Players quitting, players being beaten up by top fighters for stupid mistakes, and players who arent even interested in combat being forced into it.

The system needs a major overhaul. It was a Mistake to ever have given players the power to place Open PK status on others players and im really not sure why this was ever approved.

Alistaire

On the contrary, the bounty system (if handled correctly) is a very good tool to prevent grief. If you raid a city, you get bountied. You will die once for your efforts. That isn't grief, that is retribution. In other IRE games, there've been examples of a single raid against a city getting people killed five and six times, if not more. Can you imagine attacking the enemy once and then being unable to leave the city without fear of someone attacking you for months, if not RL years? 

That is why the bounty system was approved.

Seir

While I believe the players have demonstrated in the past that we can't have nice things concerning certain mechanics, I don't believe the bounty system has been so blatantly abused to that point. That being said, I can imagine the confusion in some players when they go to bash certain areas.

Not that I'm targeting you, Calipso, but rather using you as an example in this case: you then have aspects of bounties that are obvious. If you exterminate a forest room, you can generally expect Duiran to go after you for it. I can understand Enorian's laws concerning those areas being pretty vague and not readily known. Personally, I don't agree with the Enorian law allowing folks to go after others who bash those areas since it establishes a pretty bad precedent. What's stopping Bloodloch from saying one day that they want to bounty people who go hunt the Lich Gardens or Torturer's Caverns? Suddenly, we find that most areas in the game worth hunting are now avoided by many non-combatants because they don't want to be subjected to a bounty.

Xavin

Yeah, I don't get where you're pulling a lot of that from, Calipso. Nine times out of ten someone will be told why they were bountied when it happens or when they ask, assuming they're not warned about what they did in the first place.

In other cases, bounties are placed for obvious things. I don't think the bounty system is as terrible as it's being made out to be, though it does have abuse potential. I don't think this situation is an instance of abuse, though.