Can we talk about consumable buffs?

SibattiSibatti Mamba dur NayaAmidst vibrant flora and trees
edited March 18 in Harpy's Head Tavern
There's even a bigger discussion here around buffs needing a serious rework - it feels like the game has been balanced around having 100% uptime on these things, when in reality they are not always available or make sense to have going.

But, let me get straight to the point: pausing timers and buffs for things that you pay for is long overdue.

Having a timer running when other things are happening in the game facilitates an unhealthy playing experience - not just for the person burning a timer or a consumable, but anyone else who needs them.

Having a ticking clock running leads you to feeling like you are actively wasting real life money/credits if you aren't getting the most out of it. If you start a timer, you're going to want to see it out.

Seeing it out means ignoring events that are going to take 2-3 hours away, but you really want to participate and watch = bad
Seeing it out means making a hard decision as a leader of a guild/order/city = bad
Seeing it out means ignoring other RP situations, and virtually anything else = bad

Choosing not to log in so you don't have to make a choice between bashing and doing other things = bad.

A game is going to want to keep its players logged in an engaged/motivated to spend more time in the game, one of the most fundamental rules of game making / social media.

If I'm at the point where I have to log out and not play the game, something is wrong.

If you come at me with 'well thats ur choice to XYZ' just don't bother replying because that's the dumbest answer and you know it.


  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited March 18
    A classlead trying to fix this got rejected. Was kinda devastated, if I'm being honest, since we've all been asking for it for, like, a year or more. I wish they'd at least let you pause *once* if nothing else.

  • This is something that should have been addressed ages ago (or even been planned for with the introduction of consumable buffs). I cannot reconcile the fact that not only was a classlead rejected about it, but there has been zero communication regarding it - even if that communication was simply explaining why it wouldn't change so that players could then discuss that explanation and attempt to change minds.
  • Obviously the solution is a consumable buff that simply debuffs(pauses) for a period
  • Honestly, I can see why they're hesitant to allow us to pause some of these buffs. In short, they're numerically just too good. Just taking experience, we have two clear winners here being mint at 150% and chalice at 100%. Most other buffs in the game are in the 5-10% range.

    I think a better balance would be allowing us to split these buffs into smaller chunks for a slightly smaller numerical value.
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Honestly, if I could eat 1/8th of a chocolate for one hour buff, that'd be fine. Realistically, though, how is that any different than letting us pause them?

  • Give trans cooking ability to cut up chocos. Make them bound to you when done.

    Trans brewing for chalice.

  • SibattiSibatti Mamba dur Naya Amidst vibrant flora and trees
    There's merit in that idea - maybe the problem is just that they last for too long.

    The likelihood of losing your whole day to committing to something goes down significantly, which is what I see as the root of the problem.
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited March 19
    I just don't think I see the point if disallowing at least one free buff pause in a game where RP or Org Obligations or Events (all of which can more or less come out of nowhere) can all take several hours, and are considered a vital part of the gameplay experience. They almost always cost some sort of extremely-difficult-to-get currency (iron coins, silver keystones, promos, articart--most of those requiring real money in some form or another), so it's a ticking clock usually on a real dollar investment somewhere. I've heard the "well they're too strong" thing get bandied about here and there, but they're kinda ubiquitous at this point for major leveling pushes. I don't even think they're that much of a power creep problem, getting levels/exp at high end gameplay is a MASSIVE grind, and usually people end up sinking a decent amount of real money into the game if they're making an actual concerted push into the game.

    I guess they could be deleted or nerfed, but that really feels like punishing people for wanting to have a decent/fun play experience. Kind of one of those "how dare I want to not want to jump out the window while bashing at level 185" type situations.

    I just don't think we've ever been given a solid argument for why we shouldn't be allowed to pause chocolates AT LEAST one time for free, maybe subsequent times with a 1 credit cost or something silly. These things can jump to 15/20 credits. Pausing to play any other part of the game and letting the cooldown burn away is like buying a resealable bottle of coke and, instead of putting it in the fridge, you pour a little bit of it down the drain at a steady rate. I don't think it's totally fair to be put into a position where you have to choose between the chocolate cooldown and the rest of the game, especially if it's super important. We're not talking about roleplay stakes or difficult IC decisions here, like me choosing between being a my character being Carnifex or sidehopping to kiss Duiranites--this is purely about player value.

  • If I'm interpreting the artifact cart correctly, each chocolate is valued *by the game* at 3 credits. For 8 hours. @ 5000 gold/credit, that's 1875 gold per hour, which persists through logout. That is a fantastical deal. Compared to chalice, which is 2/3rds as effective, lasts 24 hours without pausing at logout valued at 30 credits, chocolates are already phenominal. Please note, this does not account for the secondary market nor scarcity. Or the 30-40% discount from the artifact cart.

    It certainly makes sense I should be able to sip the chalice and not chug the whole damn thing and get an hour or two at a time. Or nibble my chocolate and not pop the whole thing in my mouth like a monster. But buffing things that are already amazing is bad business. Would you pay more for a nibble-able chocolate? Because as is, the proposed changes would probably lose revenue for the game. Increasing the cost would be a way to preserve the anticipated revenue for the game from the consumables and allow for the proposed changes.

    Now, before Lin makes a jab about me being a capitalist loving pig scumbag, I would like to empathize with the described plights. I, too, have nommed chocolates and then faced that difficult decision to RP with cool people and waste the buffs, or bash. Would the QoL improvements be awesome? Heck yeah. But the alternative means to preserve revenue via increasing consumption by buffing the buffs seems highly unlikelyin this context as we're not encouraging more chocolates to be eaten. It may be beneficial to remember Ictinus and Co are running a business and decisions can often be better understood by reframing things in that context.

    Alright, smash that disagree button into oblivion.
  • I'm not even looking at it from a business point of view, but from a game design point of view when you have two buffs that are just so much better than anything else you just can't design any other buffs that will look anywhere near as appealing without also having crazy numbers. I'm surprised we haven't gone down that path of buff creep already.

    So, chocolates and chalices unfortunately need a trade-off to justify their astronomical numerical values. I don't think the current trade-off is healthy either, so I think allowing people to split the buffs up but with lower numerical values would be a better balance.
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Good luck getting a chocolate for 3 credits outside of articart bud.

  • What I can or cannot get a chocolate for outside of articart is irrelevant. It does not change the assumed valuation of a chocolate by the game. Just like the game doesn't care that you're unlikely to sell a chalice to another player for 30 unbound credits. Plus the combination of my infrequent use of chocolates and my stockpile of nondecaying means to generate chocolates, I'm highly unlikely to buy chocolates from another player. Ever.

    I also consider myself an off peak player, so attendance at any Celani lead events is extremely unlikely. I would consider it a positive change, though, if things like these Elder God events had a room-specific pause on paid buff timers. Because I agree, if you have the choice to attend a world event, it shouldn't be at the cost of the buffs you presumably paid RL monies for.
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited March 20
    Market value of chocolates is definitely relevant, and the price they're sold for on the extremely infrequent articarts is not the only way that chocolates are valued, especially if you want to get into the average cost per promo/giftbag and how frequently thoes do or don't give away chocolates***. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how much you value them at. A couple bucks or a few bucks, money's money, and it's a massive bummer to have no solution other than either pouring that money down the drain or avoiding every other aspect of the game (or logging out entirely) until the cooldown has been used up.

    I'm also not sure why we're resorting to rating on-topic comments as "off topic," but I suppose we all cope with opposing arguments in unique ways.

    ***edit: because I can't help myself as a person, I did run another evaluation on the cost of chocolates. Another method of getting them (aside form doing weeklies for 2 weeks just to buy one) is buying the box of chocolates for 15ic. You get anywhere from 3-5 chocolates from a box. This makes chocolates gotten from these boxes worth 3-5ic each. ic sell for about 2 credits each if you're lucky, making the cost, via this method, 6-10cr per chocolate, making the cost $2.09-$3.49 each. This is arguably cheaper (though ics are still hard to get), as long as you feel like ignoring membership costs and all that as a factor. Like I said, it's like dumping coke or pepsi down the drain for no real reason other than "They're good, so flushing money down the toilet is an acceptable tradeoff."

  • edited March 20
    I would take a lowering of how long chalices last for (12 hours instead of 24 hours) if it could be paused when I logged off. For someone who can only invest 3 hours or so everyday to bash and who wants to make the most of it, I do feel my heart ache everytime I use my consumable buffs and make the most of my time with the exp boost they grant.

    Unfortunately, this means my 30cr chalice can at max be used for 6 hours (3 hours today, and 3 hours tomorrow before it wears off), which essentially means I have only made worth 1/4th of the buff hours it gives or 1/5th of its credit worth. It's extremely painful.

    So, yes. Anything that will allow me to pause them even for a little bit, even at a bit of a penalty.
  • edited March 20
    My short thoughts on this, since I hate our new forum format: the way these timed buffs work right now really sucks. I hate being forced to choose between:

    a. an 8 hour block of logged in time where I interact with nobody and nothing besides NPCs and their health pools
    b. actively wasting credits per minute that I am not bashing because my character has some place in the narrative of their orgs.

    Leaders do not have the luxury of telling their orgs 'sorry, I'm on chocolates' - or, if they are, they probably should consider abdicating their position. It sucks when an event starts and I'm halfway through a chocolate, because I'm probably about to lose most of the remaining time due to my greater investment in the story going on.

    With that out of the way, here's an echo of some fixes you guys keep throwing around:

    Break chalices into 24 sips with hour long buffs each.

    Why? There should be not a single consumable item worth credits that you cannot get the maximum benefit out of. I feel that the current way a chalice works is actually just as egregious as how chocolates work, because it encourages you to be logged in for a lot longer than a player might want to be anyways. Every minute of it where you aren't is a flat loss of credits/gold used to obtain it. It is, in my opinion, very predatory to the consumer first and foremost. I do not buy chalices. I will take them from donations or promo chests, but I refuse to spend money on a consumable that ticks down when I'm logged off.

    Break chocolates into 2 or 4 bites with four or two hour long buffs each. Revise the decay time on these or bring back the mesh chocolate bag relic (I truly believe not bringing back is a tremendous mistake by terms of promo items)

    Why? Because even though being logged out is a way to pause these timers, 'just log out' is the literal worst solution to suggest for every single one of these problems - it doesn't matter context or content or issue, 'log out' hurts the player and the game long term. It will cause players to miss events and the game to miss players. Using chocolates is allowing the game to set your schedule instead of you setting it on its own. It also encourages another problem evident to me:

    We already don't have enough bashing areas to support the number of people who suddenly caught the Level 200 Bug. Forcing everyone to meticulously plan their chocolate schedule, etc when there's a big block of 'EVENT THINGS' most nights right now means that a lot of players have even less time to be spread out and thus fight over EXP sources constantly. It makes the 8 hours before the 'event start' range and the 8 hours after the night's scene much, much more busy.
  • On the off chance it helps underscore the cost of much more finely stratified buff timers, MANIPULATE PYLON FOR WISDOM TRANSMUTE is what, an extra 15% exp over non-transmute for an hour at 25k gold or basically 5 credits. With that in the back of my mind, I'm super happy with the comparative inexpense of chocolates and chalices, their bonuses, and duration. Would extra features and flexibility be nice? Yep. Wouldn't complain if they got added. Not going to advocate for it anymore though.

    But, everyone's valuation of credits, time, and even money varies dramatically.
  • I will also jump on the wagon adding that I can never get more than 6 or 7 hours on a chalice. So a two sip chalice would be most appealing, even if we take somewhat less XP, maybe 75 instead of 100 %. I have also been considering why admin is hesitant to do this and I am wondering if it is not to be fair to all whom have bought chalices and had to deal with this. But at a reduce XP I think it would be fair. Qeddwyn is getting rich, bastard. LOL
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress Sweden
    Maybe even reducing the xp per sip, if you decide to divide it up rather than chug the whole thing down.

    Chug chalice = 100% 24h buff like normal
    Sip # chalice = splits chalice into # parts, reducing the buff with 10% per stage.
    (2 = two sips with 90% for 12h each,
    3 = three sips with 80% for 8h each,
    4 = four sips with 70% for 6 h each)

  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Please do not make this a weird math problem with diminishing returns. Either leave them as is or let us split them, this would be awful lol

  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Someone suggested the idea of changing Chalices and Mints to "xp boost until n base experience is accrued" instead of making it a time-based thing, and I think this solves pretty much every problem we've talked about here, as long as the calculations were fair.

  • Dunno if that would work. There seems to be an issue with ascended exp. Like the daily will say gain 5000 xp from quests or whatever, you do one that says you gained 100xp, and the daily is done.
  • Ascendant+ levels have their EXP gains divided for presentation purposes, I believe.
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    And for overflow purposes afaik
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    It's not an issue, it's a basic math flag they could tick easily.

  • > @Iesid said:
    > Ascendant+ levels have their EXP gains divided for presentation purposes, I believe.

    That makes sense. Something that has crossed my mind before but I was never for sure if it was intentional or not.
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