Talking About Tethers

2

Comments

  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Iesid said:


    All this thoughtful stuff



    IesidReaveKurakLinKalenaSryaenRasani
  • SibattiSibatti Mamba dur Naya Amidst vibrant flora and trees
    Iesid said:


    Why can't it be used to supplement or re-direct world PK into more appropriate venues?

    Just sub in "Battlefields" for "the Wendy's parking lot after school" problem solved.

    IesidKalena
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    edited February 17
    Lenoriel said:

    Edit: I want to add one thing- I play a Spirit char and a Shadow char with about equal investment, and I noticed very strongly that as soon as it became known that I had a Shadow char, the Spirit community started treating me with a measure of paranoia that has been honestly really hurtful. As if that made me sus as a person. Deny it or not, but there /is/ an OOC bias across tethers- especially spirit to shadow- and I truly think that, too, plays a part in the desire to find reasons to stand together as a tether against them IC. Please, don't take this as an attack. I love my Spirit friends to pieces. But I need to speak what I see, and I'm not the only one who has experienced that.

    Anyone treating you this way is unicornsing stupid, fwiw.
    EakuSibattiRihrinIazamatKurakFyrren
  • Personally, this was my greatest frustration for Spinesreach in this event. They are pretty well split on undead and living. But because of tethers, if someone chose to fight for Dhar in this single case, which would be in their own personal best interest, they would be seen as traitors. So instead they had to either fight against their own best interest OR nope out of the event altogether, and when that happened, they caught crap for it. 
    Wjoltyr
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress Sweden
    Ayastia said:
    So instead they had to either fight against their own best interest OR nope out of the event altogether, and when that happened, they caught crap for it. 
    I haven't seen any of this happening and I'm one of the people who has essentially noped out of the event and kept on bashing instead. No shade thrown my way for not participating, and I haven't heard anything like that in web either. If there are people making IC comments about it, thatjust another RP point of view, where characters disagree on things. Oocly, though, I've seen nothing of this. If you have heard of it, please let us know so it can be addressed, because players are free to choose their character's path.



    IazamatRihrin
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited February 17
    Iesid said:


    The system was repeatedly villainized and disparaged as the reason why Spirit wins, which is not true.

    I just wanna step in here and point out that...I don't think it's ever been said with a negative attitude? I've literally never seen someone try to villanize or disparage Sunder. I do think its ubiquity and ease-of-access and distribution (and ongoing development) has been a bigtime benefit to Spirit's Group PVP scene. I can't speak to the shadow-side development at all, but all the chatter I've personally seen about Sunder has actually been a pretty admirable respect for how it's handled. If anything, it's more of a "we gotta start doing something like that" deal.

    IesidWjoltyrLenoriel
  • Iesid said:

    The only reason it doesn't seem accessible to Shadow is because nobody from Shadow is willing to come to me and contribute to the project.

    Now, I fully admit upfront that I could be misremembering events, and I want to make it clear that I don't blame you for any of the lingering resentment that there may still be as you were not responsible, but there was a point where at least one or two (maybe even more) Shadow players attempted to directly assist with the development of Sunder and the inclusion of Shadow classes. They were essentially told no or mistreated, which resulted in the forking of Sunder into Darkside. There has also been at least one instance of Shadow players being treated poorly in that Discord when they came for help. Clearly you're attempting to change that, but I think context for why people may not willingly approach you about assisting without an invite or may have the notions they do is necessary. Once bitten, twice shy, etc.

    That said, now that the invite has been extended, I hope people will assist. It's a good community tool and one that people should look into helping with if they have the time and inclination.
    Iesid
  • edited February 17
    Tetchta said:

    Iesid said:


    The system was repeatedly villainized and disparaged as the reason why Spirit wins, which is not true.

    I just wanna step in here and point out that...I don't think it's ever been said with a negative attitude? I've literally never seen someone try to villanize or disparage Sunder. I do think its ubiquity and ease-of-access and distribution (and ongoing development) has been a bigtime benefit to Spirit's Group PVP scene bigtime. I can't speak to the shadow-side development at all, but all the chatter I've personally seen about Sunder has actually been a pretty admirable respect for how it's handled. If anything, it's more of a "we gotta start doing something like that" deal.
    I should have been more specific about my usage of tense, so that's my fault. My statement comes mostly from lived experience a couple years ago, where the reputation or misunderstanding started. I endured a lot of Discord commentary about 'Sunderbots' and how 'Jory and Stine did all the work for them, so it doesn't count'. There was definitely negative language used, which is why I did emphasize that a lot of this tribalism comes from people who do not even play anymore, but their commentary seems to have had the lasting impression I wanted to correct here.

    As for 'gotta start doing something like that'... well, I'll repeat that I'm always glad to add stuff in. As more classes get mirrored, Spirit stuff will trickle down to conversions into Shadow mirrors and you will eventually have a system that supports every class in varying degrees of detail. For example, I'd posit that a Revenant stands to gain far more from Sunder than a Warden or Oneiromancer does, straight out of the box, because neither of the latter two had any dedicated Carnifex or Indorani users adding constant improvements the way Sunder did for the myriad Templar users.
    Iazamat said:

    Iesid said:

    The only reason it doesn't seem accessible to Shadow is because nobody from Shadow is willing to come to me and contribute to the project.

    Now, I fully admit upfront that I could be misremembering events, and I want to make it clear that I don't blame you for any of the lingering resentment that there may still be as you were not responsible, but there was a point where at least one or two (maybe even more) Shadow players attempted to directly assist with the development of Sunder and the inclusion of Shadow classes. They were essentially told no or mistreated, which resulted in the forking of Sunder into Darkside. There has also been at least one instance of Shadow players being treated poorly in that Discord when they came for help. Clearly you're attempting to change that, but I think context for why people may not willingly approach you about assisting without an invite or may have the notions they do is necessary. Once bitten, twice shy, etc.

    That said, now that the invite has been extended, I hope people will assist. It's a good community tool and one that people should look into helping with if they have the time and inclination.
    I recall this as well, but the course of events is a little different to my memory. I think it came down to philosophical disagreements on what Sunder 'should' do and that the individual who made that fork decided to do so on their own because of that.
    IazamatTetchtaKurak
  • It very well could be! Regardless, there's bad blood from a few years ago regarding Sunder and how some Shadow players might feel about it, so putting the invite out there and making it clear they're welcomed is the right move. Just wanted to provide some context for why people might be hesitant.
    IesidKurak
  • edited February 18
    Teani said:
    Ayastia said:
    So instead they had to either fight against their own best interest OR nope out of the event altogether, and when that happened, they caught crap for it. 
    I haven't seen any of this happening and I'm one of the people who has essentially noped out of the event and kept on bashing instead. No shade thrown my way for not participating, and I haven't heard anything like that in web either. If there are people making IC comments about it, thatjust another RP point of view, where characters disagree on things. Oocly, though, I've seen nothing of this. If you have heard of it, please let us know so it can be addressed, because players are free to choose their character's path.
    I cannot remember the exact term used, but it was something like dead weight. 

    Oh! SORRY! I never meant to imply it was ooc. I meant that the characters either fought for something that hurt them or catch crap. 
  • Ayastia said:
    Teani said:
    Ayastia said:
    So instead they had to either fight against their own best interest OR nope out of the event altogether, and when that happened, they caught crap for it. 
    I haven't seen any of this happening and I'm one of the people who has essentially noped out of the event and kept on bashing instead. No shade thrown my way for not participating, and I haven't heard anything like that in web either. If there are people making IC comments about it, thatjust another RP point of view, where characters disagree on things. Oocly, though, I've seen nothing of this. If you have heard of it, please let us know so it can be addressed, because players are free to choose their character's path.
    I cannot remember the exact term used, but it was something like dead weight. 

    Oh! SORRY! I never meant to imply it was ooc. I meant that the characters either fought for something that hurt them or catch crap. 
    I'd rather know what you think about the existence of tethers and whether you think it'll enrich the story and game by having more sides and emphasizing city identities, and whether it would make things feel more balanced and interesting, narratively speaking. You've been on both tethers. What do you think? 
  • My issue with tethers really is once you join one, you are expected to behave a certain way. I will use this event again as example. When a couple of Spireans came to us about wanting to fight with us, most of us were shocked. It was unheard of for Spinesreach to do so. But it made sense. When there is a battle of life vs undeath, and the outcome of a fight could have a real effect on one way of existence, why would Spinesreach side with a city of primarily undead? It goes against their own self interests. Yet, because of fear of retaliation because Bloodloch is the stronger city (at least, that is the reason I was given) they had to step back. I have always felt tethers should be more of a general guideline for your character rather than a set of shackles. 

    Stepping away from this event, let's look at Duiran and Enorian. They work together because they both want to see the Cycle prosper. But if Enorian launched an offensive that was something like 'We can wipe out the curse of undeath for eternity, but in return, Dendara will be destroyed', I full expect some Duiranites to help Enorian but most to say Pit no and them try and stop Enorian from them accomplishing their goal. 

    This is my half asleep ramble of saying Tethers are good so you can tell a character's general beliefs in the Spirit vs Shadow fight, but I do not think it should play as strong a role in RP as it does. 'I am Shadow so I cannot support this God in this event because he is a 'Spirit' God. Or vice versa

    Reave
  • I get what you mean. You're saying that tethers should only play a role in identifying where a character's morality stands, but everything else that they stand for shouldn't be automatically answered for them, because they stand on a certain side.

    Unfortunately, the way Aetolia's setting currently is has not allowed us to embrace diversity or roleplay distinctions. If you want to be competitive, then you're inevitably going to have to toss all of that aside and work for the overarching theme right now, which is Shadow vs Spirit.

    I personally think that the present conflict scene and the participation you get in them are just symptoms of a problem that needs to be looked at. It has shown that tethers definitely need solid work to make them worth fighting around for. If tethers are there as general guidelines of a character's actions, then I feel we should place more emphasis on events or activities that focus on challenging a city's identity and building it up.

    For example, I really like your hypothesized situation: If Enorian can wipe out the curse of undeath for eternity, but in return, Dendara will be destroyed, what will Duiran do?

    In the same vein, if Bloodloch decides they need to recklessly draw more from the Shadow Plane to make manifest their dominion over Sapience, what would Spinesreach do?

    Idle thoughts of fancy, I guess.
    Ayastia
  • I think it's less that tethers are dictating player behavior as much as it is city culture. As someone who pushed hard for Spines to take a stance in this event, the reasoning was literally never once 'fear of retaliation' from Bloodloch or blind tether allegiance, but a decision to stick to the theme of Spinesreach. To quote our own HELP file:
    Like the Ankyrean Order, Spireans bear an immense sense of pride, as their city is home to unequaled intellects and warriors who pursue progress and enlightenment while paying little heed to frivolous hindrances such as morality. Spinesreach is a city that bears a single-minded, inexorable drive towards gaining power in all forms, and it instills a sense of freedom in the will of its citizens, encouraging them to employ whatever tactics they deem necessary to obtain victory in this regard.

    Looking at this, and looking at the offer from Bloodloch for research into what was essentially a new field of magic, it made sense to be like "No, we should help them, not because they're our allies or because of the treaties or because ShAdOw-whatever, but because we stand to learn some new cool stuff from it, and that is, on paper, our schtick." Unfortunately, that's just really not what the city is. Spines doesn't have an identity right now strong enough to push us towards a singular goal. We're basically the Hufflepuff of Aetolian cities where "all the rest" go, and that makes it really difficult to involve ourselves in any sort of meaningful way in events.

    I guess the whole point I'm mentioning it is that the decision wasn't being made at a tether-based "SHADOW GOOD, MUST SUPPORT SHADOW" sort of level, but one from a city culture angle...and I think city culture is what makes the in-game world interesting rather than simply ShadowxSpirit, because that makes it four separate entities, rather than only two. I don't think tethers are an issue when those four cultures get their chance to do things uniquely them and shine for it. Double points if/when those things cause conflict on one side of the tether, like when Syssin and Consanguine were at war over the whole Ati situation.

    Undeath and blood and shouting strength? Go go gadget Bloodloch.
    Trees and Dendara and Spirits? Do ya thang, Duiran
    Light and Spirit and Truth? Praise it, Enorian.
    Spinesreach?...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    IesidFyrrenEleneValorieLegynWjoltyr
  • @Elene yes, that. Precisely that. 
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited February 18
    Feirenz said:

    Spinesreach?...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I'm not sure if this is threatening to break past the scope of the topic, because I really don't want this to become a "Spinesreach sucks, and they screwed everything up" conversation, because I truly don't believe that. Spines has some really dope RP going on, and it's not a mistake that they're (presently) the biggest city in the game.

    BUT, this RP and identity has basically boxed Spinesreach into a corner where the only real conflict it can be invested in (as a body) are things that directly threaten Spinesreach itself. Which, in a sense, is true of all the cities, but the things that can threaten Spinesreach aren't really ideological. Someone has to show up at Spine's gate with and army and be like "We think you have too many rights!"

    Spines became a de facto neutral city, or as close as we can get to having one. They don't really get along with Eno and Duiran because they do have existential threats going on in there regarding shadow, and they do let yucky vampires join up. But aside from that, they're kinda the forgotten city, with no real reason to get out of bed in the morning. Just as they don't really seem to have a reason to defend themselves, they don't seem to have a reason to go out and do something proactively (i stg italics better not linebreak me again or I'll rip my hair out).

    I think in a game that has effectively two sides to it, and one of the sides is almost unanimously unified on all issues while the other has one city that is Mordor But With Snugglies and the other is America But We Say Comrade, this is going to create some serious challenges when it comes to designing apparently balanced conflicts, especially if they're mechanical and require physical bodies to fight things.

    It doesn't seem like an unfixable problem to me, and I think it can be done without crunching the toes of any org's major RP. Just will take some creative thinking.

    I still think tethers as a concept, of two fronts opposed to each other, needs looked at. It seems overly basic, for a game that has four different orgs with different identities. I'm not sure under which conditions one might say Only Spines and Duiran fight each other, or Spines and Eno fight against Bloodloch and Duiran, or any number of strange scenarios one might conceive of could be justified. But I think it warrants consideration. Mechanically, I do still think you shouldn't have Wardens joining Spinesreach and all that jazz, and that definitely should stay.

    ValidanFeirenzAyastiaGalilei
  • edited February 18
    While I may agree that tethers are cancer and or have developed a special tribalism that's hard to unshackle... and gets in the way of some RP(and combat) - I feel some of the problems can be policed with organizations INTERNAL policing of bad seeds too which seems to go by the way side when let's say Unicorns-head Steve just keeps being a Unicorns-head and no one checks him on it. 

    The biggest irk with tethers is we only have "good" and "evil" ... no in between, no neutrality. You're FORCED to be one way or the other by specific city or guild laws that anchors RP to the wayside. Sparking the whole "did you see x talking to y?" Cross tether relations or communication is so taboo that breathing in those general directions is frowned upon. 

    As for combat - it's the same in my opinion. One way or the other, no give or take. Simply absolution of the 50/50.

    P.S. to throw in a artifact rant, anything ylem fields/mist gathering/antiquated gauntlets are all gated behind the tethers - if you're cityless to avoid some of the above issues you now have paperweight artifacts
    ReaveLenorielTetchtaKurak
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Validan said:

    P.S. to throw in a artifact rant, anything ylem fields/mist gathering/antiquated gauntlets are all gated behind the tethers - if you're cityless to avoid some of the above issues you now have paperweight artifacts.

    Dude this sucks so much.

    ValidanIesid
  • RhyotRhyot Bloodloch
    As a heavy Shadow player, I would abhor the idea of breaking tethers. I like the conflict it inspires, regardless of the numbers game that so often swings back and forth like a pendulum. 

    Tethers aren't bad, nor is it the tethers that are making things difficult. They are a good thing. They separate the identities of each side and how each side would play. If tethers didn't exist, you'd have players who want to make an actual Shaman, Sentinel, Templar, or Luminary but want to be in Bloodloch. You would have players who want to be an actual vampire, Indorani, or Carnifex join Duiran and Enorian. Excuse me, what? Each of these classes have actual lore tied to them that specifically go against what those cities stand for. If you eliminate the tethers, you eliminate lore. You eliminate lore, you basically have no reason to PK each other because you should all be supporting each other. If you're all supporting each other, then you have successfully created a utopia and we all need to close out of Aetolia and be like "We won!!". If we don't close out of Aetolia, then we would -need- the Albedi Gods to come mess up everything. (Granted, mechanically speaking even the Albedi gods would lose because you can't have them win if you want people to continue to play the game, so even putting minds in that direction the whole thing is moot really. Unless we want Imperian 2.0, Post-God killings....)

    I'm seeing a lot of commentary that bounces between tether, PK, and player interactions/mentality. So I'll expand further into that as well.

    Tethers aren't the make or break of an outcome in PVP events, the players are. Spirit has a solid foundation that stands upon solidarity, unity, and teamwork which is -why- they are so successful. Sure,  they have Sunder that accounts for 99.9% of their ability to form large groups when it comes to PVP (not knocking it, yall are doing awesome and I miss fighting against y'all) but they are also (from the outside looking in) generally more accepting of people who want to just be like "Hey, I have a stick. I 4 can smack people too?"

    Shadow has this mentality of putting on assless chaps and being like "Come get some" and then tearing each other down under the guise of "constructive criticism". This is further seen when people decide they want to demoralize and attack people for not participating, because they cant/won't code in some support thing, or because they don't like a specific group of people. This is toxic behavior on an internal level that bleeds to other facets of the game and players wanting to support. 

    As a former Bloodlochian, their ideals -will never- line up with that of Spinesreach. Spinesreach isn't about subjugation, might before right, destruction of everything around them, prove your strength, or whatever other schtick you want to throw in there. Just like Bloodloch isn't about making things fair or just in their city, focusing on research/education, or just allowing people to portray their opinions without being crumpled under a boot. While I do not know much about Duiran/Enorian, I will not speculate about their general differences but I have seen them at each others throats almost as much as Spinesreach and Bloodloch have been. At the end of the day though, Duiran and Enorian -will always- work together because "Bloodloch is the bad guy! GET THEM!!!" Whereas this call isn't always made against Spinesreach because, for lack of better terms, it is a neutral city that just so happens to support the Shadow tether because of RP reasons.


    As an end note. I'd love to see tethers get expanded upon with a true neutral city. A city that doesn't really push any goal other than "We exist" that is NPC ran to avoid every amount of political input that could sway it from one side or the other. If players want to join, then they can be any class they want, support any organization they want, and nobody can tell them not to because "You do you, boo-boo". This would eventually cause a bit of conflict when you see a Shaman giving away Dendara secrets to the Archivists, when you see a vampire openly feeding in Enorian (not that they'd allow it still, but the thought is entertaining), or when you see a Templar fight alongside a Carnifex. The upside of this would be that there is no organizational conflict because there's no organization to war against, putting all the onus on the player(s) that got involved. A literal definition of picking and choosing your battles. 

    This would no sway on the current build up of the cities either due to an actual city having far more content/RP available to them than a neutral city such as: guilds, clans, credit/gold reward systems, political intrigue, ministry positions, etc. The only thing a neutral city would have access to is a pylon that allows the players to continue to use their ylem powers, of which they'd need to kill ends or run minors. Then again, you could just make the neutral city be Delve and have infinite ylem so they didn't -have- to do that, but could if they wanted to. 


    IazamatValidanTetchtaLegynSryaenKurak
  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    edited February 18
    Rhyot said:


    Shadow has this mentality of putting on assless chaps and being like "Come get some" and then tearing each other down under the guise of "constructive criticism". This is further seen when people decide they want to demoralize and attack people for not participating, because they cant/won't code in some support thing, or because they don't like a specific group of people.

    I don't see this happen ever. I'm not online 24/7 but I literally haven't seen someone disparage anybody for not PKing, or attack them personally for PKing badly, in, like--I mean I just don't think I've ever seen it once, honestly. The worst I ever saw was probably nearly two years ago now where some folk were grumpy at losing and were being fairly negative about it. And while I'm not online every single minute of the day, I can say with confidence that this is not a ubiquitous part of Shadow's culture and is a massive mischaracterization, and I'm really gonna have to see receipts before I accept that this is a thing.

    IazamatLenorielKurakTeani
  • SibattiSibatti Mamba dur Naya Amidst vibrant flora and trees
    I really, really hate "did you see x talking to y" and will fight 'til my last breath to suffocate that weird culture.

    Don't assume malice in what can be chalked up to ignorance. I think that we do a lot of the former, as people. This isn't a problem unique to Aetolia, but it does tend to come up since it's a conflict-driven game. But sometimes that means that we need to pause and remember that other players (aside from a few little shit exceptions) have little to gain in harming others out of the game. We should all be thinking more like Dungeon Masters, in that we want to set up other players to enjoy the experience, even if something "bad" happens.

    When there are high stakes situations out there, I think the competition heats up considerably. Case in point: Sib doesn't tend to get involved in PvP, but this was significant enough to set off every alarm bell in existence. The ....health? well-being? ...of the Soul Mirror is one of those suuuuuper high stakes situations. When the fate of the world hangs in balance, it would be a hard sell to tell Duiran and Enorian to not fight so hard over it.

    Maybe we need some more medium or low-stakes stuff going on?? I dunno, just spitballing here.
    TetchtaLinValidanLenorielReaveSryaenKurakAyastiaIllikaal
  • edited February 18
    Rhyot said:

    Spirit has a solid foundation that stands upon solidarity, unity, and teamwork which is -why- they are so successful. Sure,  they have Sunder that accounts for 99.9% of their ability to form large groups when it comes to PVP (not knocking it, yall are doing awesome and I miss fighting against y'all) but they are also (from the outside looking in) generally more accepting of people who want to just be like "Hey, I have a stick. I 4 can smack people too?"

    I'm annoyed by this post and I should probably let it lie, but after your web rant last night, I can't. You have been Sunder's biggest detractor, to the point of having multiple people having to tell you to shut up and/or leave web. You have also been Spirit's biggest detractor, going on rambling conspiracy theory rants about their actions/behaviour whenever you get the chance in web, to the point of having multiple people tell you to shut up or leave web. Your web rant last night was a convoluted conspiracy theory about why Spirit gets away with certain PK actions and then pretending you were right in the face of multiple people laughing you down. And when someone finally had enough and lashed out, you refused to back down or remove yourself from web, instead antagonizing them for being fed up with your constant negative and toxic behaviour. You have a lot of nerve coming to the forums and pretending you're some bastion of reason when you're constantly like this.
    Rhyot said:

    Shadow has this mentality of putting on assless chaps and being like "Come get some" and then tearing each other down under the guise of "constructive criticism". This is further seen when people decide they want to demoralize and attack people for not participating, because they cant/won't code in some support thing, or because they don't like a specific group of people. This is toxic behavior on an internal level that bleeds to other facets of the game and players wanting to support.

    But to then cap it off with an insinuation that Shadow is less accepting of people who "have a stick and just want to smack people"? And accusing Shadow of tearing people down under the guise of constructive criticism? When it's your negativity and bitterness that people constantly have to mitigate? No one gets "attacked" OOC for not participating. No one gets "attacked" for being unable to code something in. No one gets "attacked" OOC for not liking a specific group of people. You lack a lot of context or refuse to see the actual issues, but this isn't it, and I'm not going to let you project your own faults and behaviour onto an entire tether that absolutely does not behave that way.
    TetchtaLenorielKurakSibattiLinTeani
  • Validan said:

    While I may agree that tethers are cancer and or have developed a special tribalism that's hard to unshackle... and gets in the way of some RP(and combat) - I feel some of the problems can be policed with organizations INTERNAL policing of bad seeds too which seems to go by the way side when let's say Unicorns-head Steve just keeps being a Unicorns-head and no one checks him on it.

    This ultimately is what needs to happen, but it's also difficult without a unifying identity to say "This person is a bad seed because we believe THIS and they believe THAT". As to getting in the way of RP, I'd argue against that. All actions cause consequences, both good and bad, and it's up us as the players writing the story of our characters to determine if risking bad consequences is worth it. Roleplay it out! Be the person breaking the rules because that's what your character believes in! That's infinitely more interesting than "Well I don't wanna get in trouble, so I'll do nothing"
    Validan said:

    The biggest irk with tethers is we only have "good" and "evil" ... no in between, no neutrality. You're FORCED to be one way or the other by specific city or guild laws that anchors RP to the wayside.

    I don't agree at all that the game is split into "good" and "evil". Every in-game culture, if viewed from the perspective of someone in that culture rather than the lens of IRL morality, is capable of being seen as 'good', and I think that that makes for compelling world building. As to being forced to act certain ways by city or guild laws? That's just putting personal RP over an organization's RP, and saying that it "anchors RP to the wayside" is just avoiding any potential RP of that conflict. Cities and guilds aren't just titles or boxes to slap on our characters, they're archetypes of certain ideals that if you're joining and pinning that name to your character, you should be at least willing to embrace those concepts, or accept that conflict is gonna result from it.

    Being a rogue is always an option, even if not a very appealing one. Yes, that will lock you out certain aspects of the game, but every one of those aspects is tied into conflict in some way.

    TetchtaValidanLenoriel
  • Ayastia said:

    My issue with tethers really is once you join one, you are expected to behave a certain way. I will use this event again as example. When a couple of Spireans came to us about wanting to fight with us, most of us were shocked. It was unheard of for Spinesreach to do so. But it made sense. When there is a battle of life vs undeath, and the outcome of a fight could have a real effect on one way of existence, why would Spinesreach side with a city of primarily undead? It goes against their own self interests. Yet, because of fear of retaliation because Bloodloch is the stronger city (at least, that is the reason I was given) they had to step back.

    Why would anyone in the City of Artifice help the two cities that destroyed almost all of Severn's shrines? For that matter, why would Duiran and Enorian ever accept Spinesreach's help after what happen with Bamathis, Severn, Haern, and Dendara?
    Elene said:

    In the same vein, if Bloodloch decides they need to recklessly draw more from the Shadow Plane to make manifest their dominion over Sapience, what would Spinesreach do?

    I'd expect the Sciomancers to take it over, thinking they could handle it safely, and if they don't, the Archivists 100% would. But again, I have no real first-hand experience with what "recklessly draw more from the Shadow Plane" means, only some context.
    Feirenz said:

    Looking at this, and looking at the offer from Bloodloch for research into what was essentially a new field of magic, it made sense to be like "No, we should help them, not because they're our allies or because of the treaties or because ShAdOw-whatever, but because we stand to learn some new cool stuff from it, and that is, on paper, our schtick." Unfortunately, that's just really not what the city is. Spines doesn't have an identity right now strong enough to push us towards a singular goal. We're basically the Hufflepuff of Aetolian cities where "all the rest" go, and that makes it really difficult to involve ourselves in any sort of meaningful way in events.

    I think Spinesreach has a well-defined cultural identity, but lacks a purpose for people to consistently rally around. It's the city that both studies and fights the Shadow, so if the Shadow isn't currently doing something, Spinesreach doesn't have much to do either. The other cities can actively pursue their purpose without constant admin support. That's one of the reasons why I think Spinesreach and Bloodloch's space within the Shadow tether needs to be defined more strongly. It would give Spinesreach a stronger sense for what it's supposed to be doing when there isn't a major event.
    ValidanReaveLenorielTetchtaGalilei
  • Feirenz said:


    I don't agree at all that the game is split into "good" and "evil". Every in-game culture, if viewed from the perspective of someone in that culture rather than the lens of IRL morality, is capable of being seen as 'good', and I think that that makes for compelling world building.

    So there's an underlying issue here, and that's that we in real life have a set of morals that we hold dear, and those morals generally align with Spirit. That means that people on Spirit tend to get way more caught up in the attitude of 'we're the good guys, we should win things, any mixed results in an event other than a clearcut good guy win means that the rug's been pulled out from under us and we actually lost'. This is something I have witnessed, over and over and over, whereas I've never seen a Lochian hold on super tightly to the idea that their baby-killing Carnifex should have no rp consequences. In a very real sense, a large portion of Spirit sees Aetolia as a game that they *should* win because they are the protagonists, the good guys, the one saving the world. And that attitude might not be conscious, but it does take conscious effort to overcome.
    Legyn said:


    I think Spinesreach has a well-defined cultural identity, but lacks a purpose for people to consistently rally around.

    I agree! Science, nationalism and pride, shadow research, art, etc is a pretty strong culture, which is why it is thriving in numbers and RP. However, it lacks an external purpose. A reason to get involved in the battles of others. It's a blessing and a curse, because we've had some incredible events like the ice abominations, the Cogger, the Shadowsnake remnants, etc. that harness that intense nationalism and powerful research impetus... but they were internal events.
    The Divine voice of Ictinus, the Architect echoes in your head, "I think you are cursed."
    TetchtaReaveLegynIazamatGalilei
  • Lenoriel said:



    So there's an underlying issue here, and that's that we in real life have a set of morals that we hold dear, and those morals generally align with Spirit. That means that people on Spirit tend to get way more caught up in the attitude of 'we're the good guys, we should win things, any mixed results in an event other than a clearcut good guy win means that the rug's been pulled out from under us and we actually lost'.

    There have definitely been times where this reaction is justified, however, and it has happened enough over the years that some players get very defensive about it. To the point where "It was Severn/Chakrasul manipulating Enorian all along" has become a meme.

    More to the topic, I do think that there are some valid points to the idea of it not being fair for Bloodloch to have to carry all the weight of combat on one tether. And I can't say that there haven't also been times over the years where Duiran or Enorian has had to carry the weight of their tether's combat. I think the thing that I am leery of, though, is any solution that would cause players who main Enorian or Duiran characters to feel like they're being punished because their orgs work well together. And while calling for tethers to be broken up now might not be intended to look like that, I hope that some of you can at least understand why it -can- look like that.

    One last thing, and maybe it's me reading into things or taking some things too personally, but I really hope that it isn't intended for some of this to read like unhappiness that in the narrative right now Bloodloch is not living up to some of the things it claims (in general). This wouldn't be the first time it's happened to that city, or to any of our cities, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Ultimately, I'm not convinced that the tether system is 100% the cause of all of this.

  • TetchtaTetchta The Innocent
    Bloodloch losing rules.

  • Xavin said:

    One last thing, and maybe it's me reading into things or taking some things too personally, but I really hope that it isn't intended for some of this to read like unhappiness that in the narrative right now Bloodloch is not living up to some of the things it claims (in general). This wouldn't be the first time it's happened to that city, or to any of our cities, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Ultimately, I'm not convinced that the tether system is 100% the cause of all of this..

    And I not sure what your implying? I lurk in Shadow web for the majority of the day and there has not been bad attitudes about this event or the PK portion. Your post reads to me: "I really hope you guys didn't post this cuz you got your asses kicked, cuz everyone has gotten their asses kicked." Shadow has pretty much accepted that it did not have numbers willing to commit to have a shot. But everyone has been good natured about it. Forcing people to PK or participate in PK just breeds resentment. Shadow has been really good about not pressuring people to pk that do not want too.

    It might be hard to accept, but I for one would feel this way if the tables were turned and Shadow had the numbers. I have never found one sided battles very compelling from either side. In Achaea I would frequently dip out of battles where we outnumbered the opposing side 2-3:1. The huge number disparity will always be a problem with the pendulum swing of the Tether system. In my experience when it is broken down to cities you have a better chance of aiming for an even battle.
    GalileiElene
  • Kurak said:

    Xavin said:

    One last thing, and maybe it's me reading into things or taking some things too personally, but I really hope that it isn't intended for some of this to read like unhappiness that in the narrative right now Bloodloch is not living up to some of the things it claims (in general). This wouldn't be the first time it's happened to that city, or to any of our cities, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Ultimately, I'm not convinced that the tether system is 100% the cause of all of this..

    And I not sure what your implying? I lurk in Shadow web for the majority of the day and there has not been bad attitudes about this event or the PK portion. Your post reads to me: "I really hope you guys didn't post this cuz you got your asses kicked, cuz everyone has gotten their asses kicked." Shadow has pretty much accepted that it did not have numbers willing to commit to have a shot. But everyone has been good natured about it. Forcing people to PK or participate in PK just breeds resentment. Shadow has been really good about not pressuring people to pk that do not want too.

    It might be hard to accept, but I for one would feel this way if the tables were turned and Shadow had the numbers. I have never found one sided battles very compelling from either side. In Achaea I would frequently dip out of battles where we outnumbered the opposing side 2-3:1. The huge number disparity will always be a problem with the pendulum swing of the Tether system. In my experience when it is broken down to cities you have a better chance of aiming for an even battle.
    Spirit side didn't have the numbers for a few months and yes, it was very demoralizing. I'd do much of the same and frequently dip out of lessers or majors if we were outnumbered 2:1 or more. I enjoy having a decent shot of at least pulling out a win, however, I suppose while I understand this argument, I also don't understand why the numbers this is being brought up again. I'm not going to police numbers on my side because that's neither my job nor my responsibility to tell other people if they can and cannot participate. If a global event is built up with this narrative that we should be invested in our side winning, then why shouldn't we play to win and use whatever is at our disposal to ensure a W?

    I think some of the feelings from Spirit players (myself included), is that Spirit rarely (if ever) seems to get a clean win. It's always "Congratulations! You've won..! But at what cost?" And that's just a real slap in the face, especially when I've never been more thrilled to see Spirit players really show up in force and band together during the past two major conflicts.


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