Announce post #3307: Defilement Aura

Autoposter

1/16/2022 at 3:08
Ictinus, the Architect
Everyone
Defilement Aura

Hi folks,

Following up somewhat on my last post and after talking over the problems with the defilement aura, I'm happy to announce the following:

- Defilement auras are now specific to the God whose shrines you have defiled.
- Defiling now tracks each specific aura timer separately.
- GODFEELINGS will list your defilement auras and their remaining times.
- This still shows up at large as 'aura of defilement' but the AURA ability in vision can be used on someone to determine which God's aura they have and whose shrines they defiled.
- Defences like Necromancy Soulmask or Oneiromancy Redoubt will not protect you from having your defilement aura read.
- All existing defilement auras have been wiped with this change.
- The "Heretics" shrine power is unchanged and lists anybody online with any defilement aura.

As a consequence of this, defilement aura now only confers PK cause on the order or congregation whose shrines you have defiled. It is no longer a carte blanche open PK status to everyone in the game.

Enjoy!

Penned by my hand on Gosday, the 16th of Ios, in the year 500 MA.

Illikaal

How does this apply to people not being in an order/congregation defending someone who is in the Order/Cong from attackers? Specifically, people not in Bamathis' Order defending people that are in the Order when they are defining or raising shrines?

Flimsy reasoning has been super prevalent lately with why people are involving themselves (They're my guild patron, they're my city mate, etc. to list some actual examples people have used) in conflict that should otherwise be relegated to Orders. Unless I missed more hard rules being written, I don't see why these same people won't continue defending someone who has a defilement aura from Haern etc. 

Nipsy

Probably the same way it will apply to the people of Haern's Order, Ethne's Order, and Omei's Order, who defend against the defilement of say, Dhar shrines.

Seems fair enough to assume, based on the rules, if we look at them exactly how they are written in the posts today.

I'm not sure what didn't make sense?

Toz

If somebody jumps in to defend without a reason to kill you specifically, you have PK on them later. That was handled in that other post from today.

Illikaal

Toz said:

If somebody jumps in to defend without a reason to kill you specifically, you have PK on them later. That was handled in that other post from today.

Right, I get that. But rules being laid out here carry an implication that otherwise wasn't expressly stated. The post strictly states that Orders are allowed to kill whoever has corresponding defilement, meaning if it has nothing to do with you then stay out of it. 

It does NOT cover other people inserting themselves, as they previously have based on flimsy reasoning. So if someone does it, is it punishable via the admin or is this supposed to be player handled? People cannot engage in holy war that they are not otherwise involved under penalty of administrative punishment. Is this meant to be the same?

Elene

I agree with the flimsy reasoning being prevalent lately, but I think if someone is defending other players in fights that are not their own, even in defilements, they open themselves for retaliation.

I don't think anyone should be allowed to claim innocence if they're standing in a room when a defilement by their ally is happening. If they die because of it, it is a justifiable death.

Also good question. I also want to know the answer to Illi's ask too. People cannot engage in holy war that they are not otherwise involved under penalty of administrative punishment. Is this meant to be the same?

Iesid

Ruling #6 in the last announce seems to cover this just fine, tbh. If you want it to be one on one so badly, start an actual holywar. Otherwise, be prepared for interference on one or both sides. Players can take some of the burden of policing themselves by setting lines or asking their allies to just let it ride unless something changes.

Illikaal

To clarify, I was never concerned about the legality of retaliating against someone engaging in such behavior because the answer is obvious. The one and only question i'm asking is if other players not directly in an Order are allowed to defend people with defilement auras, or are these new rules implying that it is illegal without expressly stating it?

Tetchta

Gonna just put this here for everyone in case it's helpful; under the new rules, you basically can't stop someone raising a shrine through PK-esque methods, even if they're nonfatal. Though it's probably irrelevant 'cause you can just defile and that still initiates a passive PK cause.

Issue #22650 Reported by: Tetchta
2022/01/16 00:59:42:
reading through the latest announce--is PK-esque intervention in raising a shrine a violation of note 3? Like say I'm raising a shrine and someone batters me a way to stop me? It doesn't seem quite the same, 'cause technically it would be giving ME PK cause, not them PKing, but I wanted to ask as a clarification.

Message #2562 Sent By: Ictinus Received On: 1/16/2022/3:57
"Hi! Regarding issue #22650: If someone is using abilities against you in order to stop you raising a shrine then I'd consider that the exact same as attacking you outright which would not be appropriate."

Nipsy

Long story short, our PK rules are not detailed enough and clearly have NUMEROUS exploitable loopholes.

So any post like this is generally not going to make it clear to the community.

That and there really isn't a culture of 1v1 retaliation, its deathball or no balls.

Tetchta

Maybe I'm just tired from hours of bashing, but if we're hoping for PK rules to cover all litigation scenarios of PK in the game, we're asking too much. There's definitely a level of judgement you're supposed to make as a player participating in the game on whether or not something you're doing is verboten or not--I've definitely seen people get an admin smack in the nose for violating the spirit of rules rather than the explicit rules. These sorts of posts do seem to drill down a lot more lines that weren't there before.

Illikaal

Tetchta said:

Gonna just put this here for everyone in case it's helpful; under the new rules, you basically can't stop someone raising a shrine through PK-esque methods, even if they're nonfatal. Though it's probably irrelevant 'cause you can just defile and that still initiates a passive PK cause.

Issue #22650 Reported by: Tetchta
2022/01/16 00:59:42:
reading through the latest announce--is PK-esque intervention in raising a shrine a violation of note 3? Like say I'm raising a shrine and someone batters me a way to stop me? It doesn't seem quite the same, 'cause technically it would be giving ME PK cause, not them PKing, but I wanted to ask as a clarification.

Message #2562 Sent By: Ictinus Received On: 1/16/2022/3:57
"Hi! Regarding issue #22650: If someone is using abilities against you in order to stop you raising a shrine then I'd consider that the exact same as attacking you outright which would not be appropriate."

True, but the problem that's been happening is a bit more complicated than that. Due to global events, and under direct order of Haern himself (to his Order specifically to be fair), no Bamathis or Severn shrines are allowed to be raised in our territories. So we've been destroying them outside the scope of holywar or war at all. This is where the problem has been coming in, because INITIALLY it was just myself and Valorie repeatedly killing Whirran and Blodwyn for attempting to raise them in said territories, before Yettave, Sheryni, Mazzion and others began inserting themselves into it. This is what caused it to escalate into the full blown tether vs tether fights we keep seeing. This is why I'm asking for clarification on these rules.

So, if Whirran has defilement aura while continuing his attempts at raising shrines in our territories, and people not of the same order come to his defense, is this or is this not legal?

As a side note, I wish Haern would just name a champion so we can declare holywar because presently, not a soul in the Order can do it.

Teani

Back when I was new to PK, I had it explained to me something like this, and it made sense to me then.
Imagine the following scenario: You are part of an Order and someone has defiled one of your deity's shrines/someone attacks you in some way for some reason. That means you have PK cause on said someone. You decide to go after said someone, and it turns out that they have a friend who defends them.

If you kill both the offender and their friend, it does -not- mean that you get to go back and kill the friend again later, because you already dealt with that during the initial clash. Neither does the offender's friend get to PK you later, because they made the choice to involve themselves in a fight that was not their own. The offender does not get PK cause on you for going after them after they have defiled. They were the aggressors, after all. If they decide to come PK you for PKing them, they start a new conflict (back to square one).

If you end up dying at the hands of the offender and their friend, your cause against the offender remains (meaning you are free to -die- as many times as you like to try to avenge the slight against you/your chosen deity, but you can only kill the offender once for that reason), and you also have cause on the friend, who attacked you despite it not being their fight (because they made the choice to open themselves up to PK when defending).

Again, you can go die to that friend however many times you like to try to avenge your death, but you can only kill them once for killing you. You can even bring friends to kill either of them, but if you do, the same thing applies to your friends as did the first offender's friend (meaning, they choose to open themselves up to PK for joining in your fight).

Illikaal

I feel like i'm either just not communicating effectively or nobody (save for Elene) cared to read/figure out what question I was asking, because the responses keep consisting of basic PK rules that I already have a strong grasp on and they do not answer or address the question I keep on asking.

The question is, once again: With the new rules that got put into place via this post, is it intended for players to deal with people not related to the order that insert themselves into defilement aura/shrine based conflicts outside of Holywar, or is this supposed to be something that is expressly illegal and subject to administrative punishment? There needs to be clarification here so the players know if issuing is appropriate, or if they need to handle it via in game means.

Yes, I get if someone commits a crime against your org, you have PK on them. I don't need that to be explained to me. This doesn't address or cover the live example I've listed above, as it's been an ongoing thing. Yes, obviously we have PK on anyone who assists Whirran trying to raise a shrine in Duiran territory while he has aura, etc. I don't care about any of that.

IS. IT. LEGAL. FOR. THEM. TO. ASSIST. HIM. IS. THE. QUESTION.

Akrios

Pretty sure he's asking if it's legal for people not in Bamathis' order (or any order at all?), to come and help him defile/raise shrines.

Teani

Autoposter said:

1/16/2022 at 3:08
Ictinus, the Architect
Everyone
Defilement Aura


As a consequence of this, defilement aura now only confers PK cause on the order or congregation whose shrines you have defiled. It is no longer a carte blanche open PK status to everyone in the game.

Enjoy!

Penned by my hand on Gosday, the 16th of Ios, in the year 500 MA.

Just by looking at this sentence makes me feel as though what I wrote is still pertinent. If someone who is -not- part of the Order/congregation, then they are to be seen as aggressors starting a new conflict. If they die during the initial clash, they have already died and so does the PK cause against them. If they manage to kill you, you have a right to avenge that death (once) in a later setting. If they keep coming after you for killing them when they got involved, then I suppose they need to be informed of the consequences of getting involved in a fight not theirs, because they cannot use that as a reason for PK. If they don't listen, that's when you involve Admin.

So, as an example, if I defile Tanixalthas' shrine and Toz finds out it was me, he can PK me. He brings Whirran along (because I am so mighty and powerful that even Toz can't kill me on his own), because Whirran secretly loves Dragonmom, even though he is in Bamathis' Order. Somehow, likely due to extreme lag on their side, I miraculously escape! This means that I have PK on Whirran, because the bastard attacked me for nor justifiable reason (he did not have PK cause as per the quote above). I don't really have PK cause to kill Toz, though, since I was a bad person to begin with by defiling the shrine of his Dragon.

If I somehow manage to kill both Toz and Whirran (because their game froze, their systems crashed and I stumbled on a good day), Toz is free to come after me again, because he still has PK cause on me. Whirran does not, so he can't unless he wants to give me another reason to kill him and possibly bring it to an Issue for being PKd for no cause more than once. Neither can I go after Whirran again later, because I already bested him.

TLDR: If they use getting killed after involving themselves in a fight that was not their own as a reason to PK you, that's when you involve Admin, because that's not a valid reason at all. Simply jumping into a fight that is not their own is still their choice, and they have to face the consequences of it.

Valorie

Teani said:

TLDR: If they use getting killed after involving themselves in a fight that was not their own as a reason to PK you, that's when you involve Admin, because that's not a valid reason at all. Simply jumping into a fight that is not their own is still their choice, and they have to face the consequences of it.

I don't think you're getting the point of the question. Your scenario is something that already happens all the time. According to these new rules, Whirran is not allowed to interfere, as he is not of Tanixalthas' order or congregation. Yet he does so anyway, hence breaking the rules. Are you now forced to fight an unfair 2v1, or are you allowed to call someone to help you to make things fair, hence having your friend break the rules too? Are these new rules admin-enforced like holy wars or player-enforced? Is it up to you to just suck it up and go claim cause on Whirran later or can you issue him and call it a day because we all know he should not be getting involved and that is blatant rule-breaking?

Essentially - is admin punishment going to be severe and swift enough to deter people from turning fights into tether vs tether instead of order vs order, or is it still largely player-enforced and we have to continue going in circles figuring out who has cause on who to duke it out later?

ETA - After some discussion, I think further clarification is required, so I'm just going to ask it this way: Is it permissible to defend someone who's getting attacked by people of the order they defiled, for having an aura of defilement? We're not allowed to bring attackers from outside the order, but the person with defilement aura is not disallowed from having all the defenders they want.

Elene

I'm also curious to know if this essentially means that shrine defilement conflict will always favour the defenders than the attackers.

Illikaal

Well if you simply look at help PK it just means you have PK cause on them later. 

Czcienn

I think the fundamental problem here is there actually 3 different levels of things people can do:
1) Things that are entirely legal and you can't get revenge for later; e.g. killing someone in an open PK area like Vortex or Iernian Fracture or in a lesser
2) Things that are entirely illegal and will get you punished by the admins; e.g. killing someone then rezzing them so you can kill them over and over
3) Things that are in between where you can justify it for X reason but will give cause so people can get revenge on you later.

Most things fall under the third, and that is why a lot of the fights in recent weeks have broken out into full tether vs tether fights, because we all have a million different reasons we could use to justify killing people from the other side - all it means is we're potentially giving them cause to go after us later. Unless it's specifically made to be against the rules (i.e. #2 in the options above) - like with holy wars - it's eventually just going to go back to the tether vs tether fights that fall under #3.

Lim

Can we just go with the suggestion that if you're defending a victim, it's enough that you're an ally; if you're defending an aggressor who's had a victim seek retaliation, you need something greater than just being an ally, e.g. you're actually involved in the conflict? I think the should address this issue/apply even in the case of other issues.

Tetchta

Saw people killin folk for raising shrines today. Figured I'd ping this thread in case everyone forgot that it's against PK rules to kill someone for raising a shrine.

Edit: Actually apparently it's this thread https://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/4276/announce-post-3306-pk-rules-issues-et-al#latest