The thing I did

Tetchta

Hey so this is kinda weird and I'm not sure if it's even against the rules or not, but there's probably a log of my floating around with me saying something insensitive. Heck, I'll just post it here in its full context: https://ada-young.com/pastebin/ImPWKZ05

Given I've made posts about talking about how we treat each other in the community before, I feel like I should probably put my money where my mouth is. The final reaction of mine was an uncool response brought about by frustration given the entire previous conversation. I'm sorry, @Oriana.

I shoulda just left web but I instead went with a stress response.

That's it.

Seurimas

Man, is this the vitriol that floats around Shadow web late at night? I see now why people say it's a bad place to hang out... My eyes have been opened.

Rihrin

Seurimas said:

Man, is this the vitriol that floats around Shadow web late at night? I see now why people say it's a bad place to hang out... My eyes have been opened.

It happens during the day, too, unfortunately. It's why I have been limiting how much I join and hang out. But frankly, it's not just Shadow side like this from time to time. Spirit has cases of it, too, but they somehow stay more less spoken about.

The whole game could do well to treat each Human behind the screen a little better and with more respect (and consider how their actions/talk may affect others), and that's coming from someone who has been a part of the problem in the past/from time to time. We all get caught up in it and let it get the better of us here and there.

@Tetchta It's good for you to recognize that you should have stepped away from it and are trying to make up for it.

Kirill

Gonna be that guy, especially since I don't know who you are. Why would you post a log of people flipping their shit at each other?

Definitely not a post that adds anything of value to the forums, and if I'd seen this kind of crap floating around the forums when I was looking at Aet as a new maybe home, I would've passed. You're better than this. Make your apology all you want, but the context in that paste isn't needed.

Toz

Y'all motherunicorns need @Mazzion

Aeryx

Logs like this make me continue to not miss being on Shadow. Glad when I came back after retiring that I decided to try the other option. And to @Rihrin 's point, sometimes we get toxic in Spirit ooc clans/webs too, but I have never seen anything to the degree in this log. But it's also not wholly surprising to me either, as it felt very familiar at the same time. I had just forgotten about it being a thing, since it's been so long.

I feel for you all, that just straight sucks, and there's not really another great way to say it.

Alela

I think I understand the reasoning, but I do wish this log hadn't been posted. That conversation was an extremely dark moment in the Shadow web. It escalated really fast. Multiple people were muted by Admin as a result. I, personally, feel a bit like I failed to rein it in, especially since I focused more on defending myself rather than telling people to cool it when I suddenly found myself one of the targets of vitriol. On the other hand, we simply lack tools to moderate once people are already in a web. It's a limitation of the format - one we've consciously embraced in an effort to keep people from splintering off into lots of angry little web-cells - and I'm not sure whether it should be changed.

What's done is done, though.

Eliadon

I would like to call out the most important part of this log:

The Log said:

(Web): Illidan says, "It's okay I usually dunk on wasps but i'll give you a pass this time buddy
(Web): Alela says, "... what is happening in here lmfao."

(Web): Bulrok says, "MESS WITH THE BULL, GET THE HORN."
(Web): Wjoltyr says, "YOU CAN'T MILK THOSE!"
(Web): Bulrok says, "Set warcry you can't milk those."
(Web): Bulrok says, "Yes."
(Web): Bulrok says, "He gets it."
(Web): Illidan says, "You don't even play alistar stop."

(Web): Bulrok says, "Illidan is 100% an unicorn and deserves every bit of flak sent his way. Stupid unicorns bee."

To which I have to say:

Illikaal

Eliadon said:

I would like to call out the most important part of this log:

The Log said:

(Web): Illidan says, "It's okay I usually dunk on wasps but i'll give you a pass this time buddy
(Web): Alela says, "... what is happening in here lmfao."

(Web): Bulrok says, "MESS WITH THE BULL, GET THE HORN."
(Web): Wjoltyr says, "YOU CAN'T MILK THOSE!"
(Web): Bulrok says, "Set warcry you can't milk those."
(Web): Bulrok says, "Yes."
(Web): Bulrok says, "He gets it."
(Web): Illidan says, "You don't even play alistar stop."

(Web): Bulrok says, "Illidan is 100% an unicorn and deserves every bit of flak sent his way. Stupid unicorns bee."

To which I have to say:

Bees can perceive time your argument is invalid.

#HGang.

__/ _
.__ __. \__/ __
.-`'-. / \__/
.-.( oo ).-. _/ \__/
__ : \".~~."/ ; \__/
/ \_`. Y`--'Y .' _/ \__
__/ `./======\.' \__/ \_
/ \__/ \======/ \__/ \__/
\__/ (_`----'_) \__/ \ (HG)
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Bulrok

I regret nothing I said. I'll shout it from the rooftops if I need to. I hadn't talked to or about Menelaus since I came back. Anyone who's of the opinion that defending myself in any capacity is toxic isn't worth much more effort than this response. And Wasps are superior to bee's in every way. \/\/


The log should not have been posted without the consent of everyone who was involved. Not because I'm ashamed of what I said, but because you're presenting one scenario out of context for the rest of everyone involved. People have already commented negatively on the situation, and all of them can get lost, honestly. They weren't there, they're not involved, they saw one tiny snippet from multiple peoples lives, and now we all get to be called toxic and vitriolic. Thanks for that, Tet.

Sryaen

Considering I've been pasted a handful of Shadow web logs where people are shit talking me and other Spirit players, this isn't really an isolated incident, but rather seems to be the narrative.

I've taken a big step back from Aetolia in terms of how active and engaged I am, partly due to the lack of global events and RP, but also due to the continued smack that's talked about me in OOC webs for IC actions my character does (looking at you Chassity, Didi, Mileta, Rhyot, etc). But apparently you can't call players out for being toxic like this, lest you catch a 3 week forum warning, as per my last post about this in the Pet Peeves thread.

What an absolute joke, because you have people like Elene, Alela, Mjoll (I may have missed others as well!) who try to rein in this behavior but largely go ignored. It's discouraging because some of these people are LEADERS on their tether and are trying to set the tone and make things less shitty, but seem to be spinning their wheels in the mud.

Eliadon

lol Illidan can't even post a bee ASCII art correctly get dunked nooblord.

Tiur

As it is a channel from the game, posting a log of it is valid. I get the consent argument, we certainly use it in regards to RP logs and all. I'm going to say, in this instance, it's posting a log of a conversation and not 'content' that needs to be okayed. It's arbitrary, I know. Drawing attention to OOC behavior and how people are interacting is good. However, the nature of the content... we can pretty much assume this is going to go off the rails.

So, it is good for the community to see this problem and be made aware. But the moment the thread itself veers off into that realm I'll have to close it.

Sidenote: We have discussed making it possible to let the web starter kick people from it. Or maybe add in a sort of non-speaking role where you can hear but not contribute. I know webs and the IGNORE command interact badly. I dunno, I'm open to it if people want to opine. I don't think it will fix anything, but who knows?

Illikaal

I didn't plan on responding to this because a wise person said its a lose-lose situation for anyone involved because it's hard to defend yourself without stirring the pot, but anyone from the outside looking in is free to make whatever speculations they want about how much of a jerk any of the individuals are. Still, I'll try to keep this conversation as constructive as it can be.

I think it's extremely important to note that perceived toxicity and actual toxicity are vastly different things. The problem is, people who do not know both parties are only going to hear whatever version or translation of "toxicity" the other person tells, or what they are seeing in a vacuum. I'll try to illustrate this with some transparency.

Many people know that for a number of years before I quit playing 8+ years ago at this point, I was an objectively toxic person in the sense that I would constantly grief people with PK, and otherwise start/go around looking for trouble so I could have any sort of excuse to kill someone. While my language was never homophobic or racist, it was colorful to say the least. I racked up a number of issues, and during those days, I was REPEATEDLY punished with curses, mutings, geas', and shrubbings when I -actually- broke the rules on a weekly basis. Sometimes several times in a single week. This is important to note, because I've been issued probably 50 or so times since I started playing again in June of 2020, so about 1 year and 2 months. Of all those issues, I've lost 2, and here is what they were:

1. I killed Yedan and mailed his head to Nebula via minipet delivery, because she in particular had been directly mentioning me. I wasn't aware at the time that minipet delivering an item to someone was considered bypassing ignore, as I thought that was meant to focus on blocking transmissible communication. I learned my lesson.

2. I said something sexually inappropriate to be mean to someone in character, who had otherwise used adult language with my character. Basically told them to SMD. There was a third person in the room who issued me because they didn't like it, and so I was muted for 3 days. Once again, in my mind I felt if someone is going to use adult language with me, then surely they could handle it too. This was an incorrect line of thinking because even within that, there are still fine lines that shouldn't be crossed. I haven't made any sort comments or remarks to anyone since.

3. My third and most recent punishment to date (a muting) didn't even come from an issue, but from an administrator watching the web conversation above. Someone who is on a mutual ignore basis with myself directly referenced me saying they've had disdain for me for 15 years, so I responded back to them essentially saying their disdain is delusional and misplaced which quite frankly is the crux of the whole point i'm trying to (eventually) make here. We both got muted because we both broke the same rule.


That's it. That's all I've been punished for in the last year and some change. I have seen the outright most insane and absurd issues filed against me that include but are certainly not limited to:

- Me PKing them in an open PK area.
- Me "harassing them" for repeatedly killing them in an open PK area they voluntarily re-enter.
- Saying I'm harassing them because I "killing you while you're open PK isn't harassment because you say it is"
- Using curse words at me unprompted and get surprised and offended when I use the same curse words back
- I'm in a web with them and they can't make me leave.
- PKing me outside of non open PK zone during an event, and then issuing when I returned the favor while they were afk
- Another issue followed up immediately after because 'killing afk people is illegal'
- Issuing me 2-3 times after any of the above reasons got rejected/dismissed accusing the administration of having a whale/pker's bias, in addition to cascading accusations regarding them enforcing/supporting bullying for people that spend money.

All of them have been some variation or the other of the above, including some I haven't even mentioned. The problem with everything I've listed above is because the people that think this way clearly have a questionable line of thinking by any person who is even moderately reasonable. I have seen time after time these sorts of people go around complaining about how toxic other people are repeatedly and otherwise unprompted except for the fact that they did something they didn't like the warranted results of, and don't know how to take the L. This in and of itself is in my opinion among the worst sort of toxicity - being upset and refusing to accept that you were wrong. Despite being administrative reviewed and the cases demonstrably proven to flimsy at best, those same people feel as if they were in the right and continue to decide that it was you and not them who were toxic.

I don't intend for this to be some sort of justifications for my actions or words because I'm not seeking any, and I fully stand by everything I said. What baffles me is seeing people picking and choosing who they want to paint as their villains. The worst anyone can say about me is that i'm an asshole, and I'll fully own that every day of the week. But there are people in the shadow community, and in that log that have documented years long history of sexually predatory behavior toward newbies in particular, even some happening as recently as a few months ago that caused 2 players as far as I'm aware to stop playing due to how uncomfortable they were made to feel. It BEYOND baffles me that this happened, and the players involved were in leadership positions then and still are to this day, but the people in their circles that love to point the toxic finger at who they choose knowing full well what these other people did and ignoring it.

I didn't say all of that to say that I'm some angel either, because I certainly have my days. But I don't think people should claim they are trying to fight toxicity and bad behavior when you have it festering right in your own backyard and walk right past it everyday without a word.

Tetchta

I don't love that I posted the log either, for what it's worth. I do believe transparency is important in our community, however, and I did have my reasons for doing so. But I think it would help to explain a bit more context. I didn't want to even post a second time in here; I just wanted to say my piece and move on. Heck, I wasn't planning on doing anything like this at all, but something someone I respected got me feeling a certain way last night, combined with a few other passive-aggressive comments regarding this event. I found myself in a position where I had several options:

1. I ignore it, which means ignoring when people use it to snipe at me
   
2. I apologize in private to someone who already doesn't like me while leaving the rumor mill and public opinion unaddressed
   
3. I apologize vaguely with no context
   
4. I double down
   
5. I apologize with some context but leave a lot open to interpretation
   
6. I apologize for what I specifically didn't do right and give people unredacted context to decide for themselves
   

I was going to go with number one, but the aforementioned comments got under my skin, and, if I'm being entirely honest, I will never have the self-control to do that option. None of these options are ideal to me, for lots of reasons; but, ultimately, when I made the decision to publicly apologize for what I did wrong, posting the log became, in my mind, a necessity, for several reasons. As you might have noticed, I tend to write too much, and I wanted to be short and to the point. I also wanted to avoid being exposed to a back and forth, "he said, she said" type scenario, where I would end up likely having to post some sort of contextualized log like that anyway in order to clear the air. Posting the log in the OP addresses both of these issues, one by essentially saying anything I could have said to explain my apology better than I could have, and by making a back and forth not really necessary. Maybe I would've made a different choice had I not posted this at 2:30 in the morning, but I can't go back and undo it, and I'm still not sure if I would have made a different decision if I could. I get that it doesn't really paint any of us in the most ideal light imaginable, but, like, idk-- that's who we are man.

Regardless, there were lots of choices I could have made handling that interaction that would have been better than the ones I chose. There's ignore, there's leaving the web; I could have replied with something a lot less flippant and dismissive. Regardless, I remain on my stance that I was wrong and I'm sorry for not being better about handling it.

Rhyot

I think we should get an expansion of the IGNORE command too in that as follows:

You do not see the person on IGNORE invited into web.
You do not see the person even if you do WEB MEMBERS.
If they are on IGNORE you do not see what they say if they do WTELLS FULL or WTELLS.

I'm not sure how intensive/difficult that would be, but hey... it's a start.

Eliadon

Rhyot said:

I think we should get an expansion of the IGNORE command too in that as follows:

You do not see the person on IGNORE invited into web.
You do not see the person even if you do WEB MEMBERS.
If they are on IGNORE you do not see what they say if they do WTELLS FULL or WTELLS.

I'm not sure how intensive/difficult that would be, but hey... it's a start.

I think something else that would help -this specific- ignore bypass case is literally just making it so any input you send to the game to a channel or says blocks you if you've typed in a name that you have on your ignore list.

I personally have ~*opinions*~ about ignore, but those don't really matter when it's pretty cut and dry here. If you put someone on ignore, you don't want to interact with them. So don't talk about them too.

None of this really addresses Tet and Oriana, but the rest of the shenanigans :P

Rasani

For whatever it's worth @Tetchta I think it takes a lot of guts to own up to when we make mistakes. I'm sure it feels bad for the folks in this log to see it out in the open, but I appreciate that you wanna be part of the solution to the toxicity problem.

Mati

I also would personally posit that, if you feel shamed because this log was posted and it wasn't because you couldn't mediate properly, perhaps that's part of the problem.

I would also posit that, while you may 'own' whatever you said, if you are worried about how it comes off to outside observers or feel otherwise defensive, maybe at least take a look at your tone and think about, if that's how outsiders observe it, how people involved or named observe it. And then think about how you would feel if it was directed at you.

No one is perfect, and we can all do better.

Bulrok

I would also posit that, no it's not part of the problem, and this type of accusation is something I didn't want to deal with. I can argue with you, which will ultimately paint me in a bad light, or I can do what Tet couldn't do and ignore it. Which is going to paint me in a bad light either way.

I would also posit that, if I walked into that situation and got context, I would probably side with the guy who has not interacted with Menelaus in over 3 months only to get bad mouthed by Menelaus.

Like Illidan said, I can't really defend myself without stirring the pot, which is going to just make things worse. And now every shot taken at me is free, and I'm suppose to just deal with it and 'become a better person'. Or it's my tone? Is this a debate? It's not about right or wrong, but presentation? "Oh yes so and so is clearly the aggressor but you didn't present that in a professional enough or well reasoned enough manner, so we'll be deducting points for that." God damn.

Xavin

I'm not gonna lie, there is a lot of bad look in that log but my god it was all started by one person in particular coming out swinging in a manner that appears to be entirely unprovoked. I think, as a general rule, we as a community need to look at how we talk to each other but ffs. Mighty big words from Menelaus for someone who is starting shit out of nowhere.

Mati

Honestly, Bulrok, I was not at all gunning for you (or actually anyone in particular), just the general vibe of that web and a dozen other logs I've seen, of which you were...basically never present, to memory. I'm sorry if it came off that way--I know I borrowed your phrasing, but that's because it was apt. I talk the way I talk, sorry if it struck a nerve.

Bulrok

No one's taken direct shots in the public yet, and yeah I am getting a little pre-emptive with my defense, but I got bout 15 years of experience and my spider sense is tingling.

Ayastia

I just want to defend myself with I haven't said a word about Illidan since I ignored him >.>

That said... geeze, is this what shadow web has become?

Honestly, all this seems like it could have been avoided. one person came out swinging and it ended up dragging everyone in. There are players I do not like, but a web with so many people is not the place to air it. This will always be the outcome.

Jaamir

As much as I shouldn't be surprised at my age, but boooooooy I am with what I read in that illuminating truth within the log. Personally, I see no reason that this should not at all be posted as it clearly demonstrates the true colors that sparked the offense that led to a chain reaction. Two things reverberate clearly to me since the web is ooc is that you should always treat each other with respect unless have given a valid reason to lose that sense of respect and they will have to do better on their end to right their wrongs. So as far as that point is concerned, I think Menelaus deserved every bit of lash back he received. Secondly to me is if you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

Other than that, again, this gives a profound glimpse into the mindset of those behind the computer in what they truly think of others as their colors. I salute you Tetcha. It takes much courage to do that and muster even more to handle possible criticism for exposing the toxic abscess within Aetolia.

Ehtias

I'll log in to police people.

Elene

I'll say it straight.

The unwarranted comment from Menelaus that started this off definitely shouldn't have happened, but this entire situation is a conglomeration of stuff that people definitely should have thought over before saying them.

For example, Tetchta had unkind intentions by inviting Illidan into the web, for the purpose of pursuing the comment and giving Illidan the platform to address what someone else said about him. Why address it personally and circumvent ignore when he can get Illi (perfectly knowing how the dude rolls) to do it himself? All parties did admit their fault to a degree anyway, but that's beside the point.

This whole log is an entire example of how we are not able to control what we say or ourselves at all, or if you do decide to rile people up, you better be sure you can take the backlash because what I commonly tell people is that if you talk shit, be ready to get hit.

This being said, Aetolia is a microcosm of the real world to me, but the safety net of it being an online community makes it so much easier to fling shit at people without any real slap back. If this is not something you would normally do in real life without thinking upon it for a little bit, don't do it.

Obviously, we can all learn to be better people, but in this cross section of what would be an off-day in Shadow Web Aetolia, it seems the fire just got really hot and spun out of control until the admin had to step in. 

Xavin

I honestly feel like it's worse than that. People, myself included, need to remember that we're all here to have fun. It's gotten way too common that people take the in-character divides and conflict personally and assume that everyone that switches sides or plays a character opposite their tether are acting in bad faith.

Elene

People are better off policing themselves first, before policing others imo, but we are all fond of doing that for others while conveniently neglecting ourselves.

Tetchta

Xavin said:

It's gotten way too common that people take the in-character divides and conflict personally and assume that everyone that switches sides or plays a character opposite their tether are acting in bad faith.

Honestly, this problem's not even close to limited to how people frame opposing tethers. I can't speak to how the microculture of Spirit is, but at the very least, in Shadow, I've noticed a pretty severe problem with people not separating IC actions and OOC people. It's led to a not-insignificant amount of acrimony for quite a few folk. It's not the sole cause of problems by any means, but, yes, overall there's an undue level of presumption of bad faith among a lot of people. I wish I knew what to do about it, but I don't, really. I can't fix other people, so I mostly try to ignore it. Sometimes, though, the choice to ignore that sort of thing often feels like I have to intentionally ostracize myself from the community, which also is an unfun prospect.

Xavin

I think it's safe to say that some of that does go on in the Spirit tether but I don't think it is all that widespread. I think some of it comes down to people digging in much too hard on the escapism of the game.