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Announce post #3136: Question Thread
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I'll open the thread now to give a place to discuss/ask more, but please keep it from getting too heated. I know all of my answers aren't going to be good enough, or what you want to hear, but they're the answers.
If there are enough followups/addons, I might just keep doing a close/open cycle, but honestly this CONSUMED my life since it started and I'm scared of that.
Now the winner of this duel had a very clear and abusable advantage over everyone off of the sole fact that they were using one of two classes in the game that can give the faintness affliction on demand and stick it. It was a very clear and self admitted oversight that was not intended to happen. Furthermore, it caused the person that won to win against people that they otherwise, objectively and demonstrably would have lost to. After I lost to said person due to the exploit, I lost to Saerward fair and square. Why? Because I didn't reset my affliction counter on myself, used panacea when I had no afflictions on me at the start of the fight, and was locked and killed because of it. 100% my own fault, and therefore was beaten fairly.
During major esports events, when the smallest thing happens that gives a player an unfair advantage over their enemy happens, they often fix the issue in some way and restart the event. Why? Because, people work their butts off, take losses, learn from them, and get better so that they can ultimately win against their opponent who isn't improving or doesn't improve at all. It makes you feel absolutely cheated when that work is literally stolen from you because of an exploit that you can't counter, or even replicate yourself to the degree they are.
My actual question is this - Why was the duel not stopped, the issue fixed, and then rescheduled for a later time? It's okay to stop, admit there was a mistake, and fix it. Even so, IF the person was indeed going to win, then they should have no problem winning once everything was fixed. So why was the person just handed the win anyway despite it being acknowledged as a massive issue? You literally handed a trophy to someone for essentially what amounts to cheating.
HG probably has the most tangible and immediate rewards, but they're mostly just 1v1 and if contested are winner-takes-all.
Sect probably has the most interesting rewards, but again it's only 1v1 and something you mostly build up over time.
Lessers only give ylem which I don't think any city actually needs. I think Duiran can last a couple of RL years without any ylem income. It feels a bit ironic that the most common vector for group combat is actually the least rewarding.
Orrery is the only other vector for group combat but it's honestly an awful slog. At best it's winner-takes-all. At worse it's just both sides fighting for almost 3 RL days at a time just to come away with nothing - as we mostly did in the last Orrery, and completely did in the one before that.
We're lucky in that most of the time the sides are fairly balanced (if not at any specific time in the day, at least generally over a 24 hour period), but we have seen times where one side or the either are dominant throughout most of the day, and it becomes very unfun for both sides. When you can't compete there is actually no reason to compete because there is nothing to really be gained from it.
My question is do you think what we have as a whole is a healthy reward system that promotes combat beyond the intrinsic appeal of combat?
For example, 2019 did a lot in terms of adding life and fun in different avenues of the game. In your "End of 2019" post, you mentioned a scheduled update to Major Foci to make them more fun, new dungeons, bashing zones, a tradeskill/talent, and holidays meaning something. From reading the responses you've given so far, bashing zones seem to be on-track with one being released so far, Ylemnics as a talent has been released as well. What about the update to Major Foci conflict, and what do you mean by dungeons, and what sort of meanings are you looking to imbue into holidays?
I've also known a few Aetolians to slip back to Achaea (where they came from) because the content of engagement there has been far more than what Aetolia has offered thus far: Occultist class rework, Infernal class rework, IRE birthday unique event schedules, all backed behind solid events. When does Aetolia get their turn? I'm helluva excited to participate in things like these since I came back, and especially since I heard I just missed the Jox event.
You also missed answering Bulrok's real question, on dropping the ball with the meeting/communication with Toz, Bulrok, Mjoll, et al. It's honestly a very contentious subject that a chunk of the shadow tether players want some form of explanation or closure to. Can you facilitate this, or are we just going to dismiss it as a thing of the past you don't want to get into?
The mission boards/quest to get unenemied to the war factions do not seem to work. In particular, I did the mission that got me enemied to the Holy Impire of New Sehal and assured that I would get unenemied to the Mitrine's settlement (mission #70) but:
The Mitrine Ladhai'i unfriendly -300 -9999
This still exists. If you're talking about the quest to get unenemied to the Mitrine settlement, that gets you unenemied to the Anandhaz faction - not the Mitrine Ladhai'i.
That being said, annnnnd since it's related to what Mazzion asked about the Ophidian-Mitrine war, there's no special full-ranked faction wares for the Anandhaz or the Gullseye faction! Epicurean has the decanter and herb pot, and the SGS has the vases, while the Gullseye have (admittedly nothing) jigs and lures. Pls2add, I love these kinds of little things added. These things make faction hunting and doing so much more funnnn.
The only question I have at the moment is: How feasible or likely is it to decouple the Praenemon class from the Vampire subrace? Teradrim was decoupled in a way that Undeath is no longer a requirement, but the class we have that serves are our primary means to remove entrenchment, block reliably on its own, and a host of other abilities is locked behind a very heavy RP investment. I am one (of many) who would invest into Praenemon but the RP into becoming a Consanguine/Vampire does not match with my character's story.
On a scale of 1-10 (1 being never gonna happen and 10 being super likely and soon), what is the likelihood of Celani seeing compensation for their work, either in the form of Account Credits or actual pay? As more and more time goes on it seems more and more outlandish that they don't get compensated for the work they do, especially considering it's pretty much a form of content creation and development.
Gothic Horror RP!
As of right now we cannot tell stories involving: fire, disease, racial tensions, tyrants, injustice, anything too stressful, etc. Anything like that would just make people's life worse. So we chose to take an approach of small, sporadic stories.
The second quote directly contradicts the type of game you're trying to be. Please keep in mind what Aetolia is. This is a game where we partake in genocide, we behead each other, afflict people until they're helpless then drain the blood from their bodies, sever limbs, smash skulls, burn each other alive, and devour people while they're still alive. Some of us are even rumored to murder the family members of our enemies but those are likely baseless, unwholesome allegations with no evidence. Please, give us players some credit. We're not snowflakes, we understand the difference between fiction and reality and we're mostly all adults.
Question #1 - If you can't have fire, disease, racial tensions, tyrants, injustice, anything too stressful when stress is a relative term that varies person to person, what is left that you can work with in creating an interesting Gothic horror environment?
Question #2 - Will the recent changes that were made to the hide skill which also made the shadowslip skill and coldblood relic worthless remain in place despite the unanimous backlash that was received?
Question #3 - Are there any plans to add a new skill to the antiquated goggles since the usefulness of lifevision was severely reduced by the hide changes?
Question #4 - Are there any plans to compensate players who have purchased lifevision previous to the hide changes?
Question #5 - Can you give us some transparent answers as to some of the themes that are being considered (or have been decided) for mirror class themes? Will spirit fex wield polearms made of pure wholesomeness and sic their pack of trained war-squirrels on their foes? Will they drain salt from the soul of their enemies and turn it back against them?
This isn't a discussion so much as an AMA, so I'll make it into a question. Are serious drugs a possibility in Aetolia?
My character herself has also had some experiences with something stronger and more addictive, but that's offered by a Goddess to a person as a gift and not publicly available.
I'm not Tiur, but public wise we don't quite have drugs like gleam in Achaea. We have cigarettes where opium and poppy are possible ingredients to make blends with, and there's the sludge in Huanazedha, but that's about it, really.
While building the culture of a monastery is a very enjoyable and educational task for me because of how foreign it is to me and my background, I still have questions that I need answers to.
The last message I sent out to Imvra was August 8th,2020. The one before that was June 25th, 2019. (I'm not a very demanding player.)
I am certainly not asking to have my hand held or to be spoonfed anything and I'm not saying one question will lead to a flood of other questions either, I am just trying to avoid the same problems my predecessors fell into when they tried doing something and invested so much energy into their ideas only to find them entirely unwelcomed.
My reasons for asking these are many, but I'll share one: at times it feels like some people are allowed to get away with far too much, making other player's time in the game miserable in may different ways, without any noticeable punishment.
For some examples; killing off an existing NPC or introducing a new one, changing a few rooms, spawning creatures, something that anyone can participate in versus something that may be geared towards a particular tether, city, or org?
2) I know there were also talks about issues with fully formed ideas versus ideas, so would a brief layout of them be the best option?
An example would be like jotting down ideas in point format with some notes that further expand on a few while listing multiple options and routes that one could choose from, and what direction it might take in the actual execution. Rather than going more indepth and writing out all the actual story and some possible dialogue, etc? (Which of course one would have to allow room for improvisation.)
3) There was a list of subjects that one should stay away from, now this limits creativity obviously and the above post (Drystin's) shows another side that some people would like this. So if its too stressful for say the pools (or whomever else), can people still work on those subjects but keep them in reserve, or should we not bother until its a better time?..so to speak.
4) Is it possible for non-celeni to sign an NDA if willing or if an idea is too fully formed like Q#2, give over said rights of the idea(s)? Or at that point is it just recommended to become a Celeni?
5) As a Celeni, can people pick and choose what they work on and how they interact with the playerbase, or are they simply assigned tasks? Some people may be more comfortable working behind the scenes rather than engaging with the playerbase upfront and vice versa.
Edit: Just adding another question since I thought of it.
6) Depending if one is a volunteer or a Celeni (if there is a difference) what are the resources available when it comes to the lore of the game? When is it recommended they speak to another person in the pool or staff to get confirmation on things?
Thank you!
1) It seems short-sighted, letting a few especially contentious examples paint the playerbase as a bunch of softies. Two spring to mind: the race riots in Enorian, while not the most exciting subject, weren't reviled because of the premise, but because they were one of the worst examples of railroading Enorian's attempt to do the right thing, producing a shitty outcome no matter what they did. Then there's Bamathis. I'm not as stridently against him as some of my peers, but I have to concede they have a point. He was several elements that, in isolation, aren't too bad (no one minds Abhorash being a straight-up Hitler Youth posterboy because he's evil in an interesting and unique way), but put all together made for a very unfortunate juxtaposition. These are two extreme examples and i think letting things like this limit your creativity is a mistake.
2) You connected contentious real world events with gothic fantasy. What's up with that? Give us some nasty Cthulhus to fight. Surely there's more in Aetolia's future than a fantasy analogue of BLM or something?
I would only have issues if Iosyne's Order started calling themselves the Proud Boys and declare war against Slyphian Antifa and seek to defund the Ashtani Resistance due to their use of tear gas. (also why is this still a thing...not Aetolia tear gas but Ashtani Resistance?) -- Also made-up examples, I love Iosyne and Slyphe, but I had a long night and no coffee.
But if you have an angry space tentacle smash half of Spinesreach and speak in tongues about the Shadow Realm.
ALL FOR IT.
My actual question is this - Why was the duel not stopped, the issue fixed, and then rescheduled for a later time? It's okay to stop, admit there was a mistake, and fix it. Even so, IF the person was indeed going to win, then they should have no problem winning once everything was fixed. So why was the person just handed the win anyway despite it being acknowledged as a massive issue? You literally handed a trophy to someone for essentially what amounts to cheating.
For multiple reasons, really. It isn't an event that makes or breaks anything in the game. It isn't something people work for years to attain (in that you just join the Duel, there's no build up you work through). It also is something we advertise the date for a month in advance. To stop it and fix a problem would require setting another version a month from then to be fair. As it isn't the only event, nor worth a great deal, that seems too much effort. We might consider some extra event points if people who nearly finished in the top 5 were very close to the line of another reward tier, but that's the only case of harm I can think of.
Missed asking this the last time around so if you're still willing to answer I have a question about combat rewards. Outside of player-driven, RP combat, I see four vectors of combat; Lessers, Orrery, Sect, and Hunting Grounds.
HG probably has the most tangible and immediate rewards, but they're mostly just 1v1 and if contested are winner-takes-all.
Sect probably has the most interesting rewards, but again it's only 1v1 and something you mostly build up over time.
Lessers only give ylem which I don't think any city actually needs. I think Duiran can last a couple of RL years without any ylem income. It feels a bit ironic that the most common vector for group combat is actually the least rewarding.
Orrery is the only other vector for group combat but it's honestly an awful slog. At best it's winner-takes-all. At worse it's just both sides fighting for almost 3 RL days at a time just to come away with nothing - as we mostly did in the last Orrery, and completely did in the one before that.
We're lucky in that most of the time the sides are fairly balanced (if not at any specific time in the day, at least generally over a 24 hour period), but we have seen times where one side or the either are dominant throughout most of the day, and it becomes very unfun for both sides. When you can't compete there is actually no reason to compete because there is nothing to really be gained from it.
My question is do you think what we have as a whole is a healthy reward system that promotes combat beyond the intrinsic appeal of combat?
I'm not sure. It's very difficult to put in rewards that do not become snowballs rolling down a hill. If a reward is too good, it makes it easier to get the reward next time, and just starts a cycle. I'm totally game to fix up reward systems if they feel too small, I'm just extremely cautious about how large their effects are.
I was in Achaea for both the birth and death of Landmarks, which changed from a combat thing necessary for daily life, to a system of boosts, to nothing, all without finding that sweet spot. They certainly made combat happen, but they usually just made a lot of people mad. And let's also note that I don't want them to approach the level of a chore; we have enough of that.
It is a line that I have a tough time walking. Too good of rewards, and the thing becomes a chore because having the reward becomes the norm, so you 'have' to participate. Too low reward and it's a waste of time.
More uses for ylem, though. That's a fine idea.
The only question I have at the moment is: How feasible or likely is it to decouple the Praenemon class from the Vampire subrace? Teradrim was decoupled in a way that Undeath is no longer a requirement, but the class we have that serves are our primary means to remove entrenchment, block reliably on its own, and a host of other abilities is locked behind a very heavy RP investment. I am one (of many) who would invest into Praenemon but the RP into becoming a Consanguine/Vampire does not match with my character's story.
I'm not sure I can answer this one well enough to make anyone content, I'm sorry. I haven't given much thought to it because the status quo is so entrenched that I feel like deviating from it requires significant push. Yes, we could, and I see the argument for it, but it's a lot of work for what might be a small amount of gain. I'd need the incentivize being a vampire beyond the class a little better? Or maybe Duamvi already made a standard for that.
Regardless, I'm thinking about it! I just don't know if I can answer firmly. Partially, I am beginning to think that my confusion means it's not important and I should just go ahead and do it. But again, difficult code-wise.
On a scale of 1-10 (1 being never gonna happen and 10 being super likely and soon), what is the likelihood of Celani seeing compensation for their work, either in the form of Account Credits or actual pay? As more and more time goes on it seems more and more outlandish that they don't get compensated for the work they do, especially considering it's pretty much a form of content creation and development.
I'd love to outright pay Celani, but we don't make enough to keep that up. There are other kinds of compensation, but due to the nature of the job, I don't want to advertise what that would be; they aren't something I can promise, as situations differ.
Brax (edited a little): Getting paid would be awesome, but ultimately we know what we’re getting into when we sign up. Volunteering looks good on a resume (several of us that have done it before/have done it in the past have successfully used volunteering and skills learned through it to help get jobs), producers have offered letters of recommendation before, things of that nature. So not directly paid, but much like other volunteer pursuits, it can pay off in its own way outside of the game.
The second quote directly contradicts the type of game you're trying to be. Please keep in mind what Aetolia is. This is a game where we partake in genocide, we behead each other, afflict people until they're helpless then drain the blood from their bodies, sever limbs, smash skulls, burn each other alive, and devour people while they're still alive. Some of us are even rumored to murder the family members of our enemies but those are likely baseless, unwholesome allegations with no evidence. Please, give us players some credit. We're not snowflakes, we understand the difference between fiction and reality and we're mostly all adults.
My email, messages, forums, etc all disagree with this. And that is absolutely fine, if something affects you, let me know, the entire point of a small curated game is that I can take things into account. But it does mean not everyone knows the quantity of people who have been affected, and I'm not going to out the ones who talk to me.
Brax:
Just wanted to chime in here quick re: subject material from a volunteer perspective. Not insinuating that all volunteers feel this way, but I'm sure there are common threads here:
From the volunteer side of things, we try to be conscientious of subject material as-is. The last thing we want to do is cause stress. If you guys are stressed out doing an event that we've put time into making happen, we're going to be stressed either trying to rush a conclusion for it that stops stressing you guys out, or working to modify the event so that it stops being stressful. That's not really good for anyone involved.
That was the headspace before all of 2020 happened. Now we're still in that same spot, but with all sorts of craziness happening outside of the game. Aetolia, now more than ever for a lot of us, is an escape from the utter insanity going on around us outside of the game - it feels that way for me too, and I know I'm not alone there.
Personally, I don't want to be responsible for running an event that involves players and NPCs dying off from a disease right now if there's a chance that somebody witnessing and/or participating in said event just lost somebody to COVID.
Could some players handle that just fine? Of course. But if we do an event involving a disease, it's not going to be just a one-or-two-people event, it'll likely get much bigger than that. That's where we risk exposing people who maybe just want a break from it mentally, and suddenly they've got no choice in the matter but to stay in their havens or not log in. Now the place they go to have fun and hop out of the real world for a little while isn't that escape anymore.
I don't want to be the reason that's taken away from somebody in a year that's been particularly difficult on a whole lot of people for a whole lot of reasons, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I don't necessarily think this is being contradictory, or limiting creativity, but just being a little more cognizant of the struggles happening right now specifically.
Those things can come back when we're not in the middle of all of those things happening RIGHT NOW. It's just not cool to tell a story about burning down houses while a Celani is sitting in their house hoping it doesn't burn down.
All the changes are now in that we are going to be making in regards to that stuff.
Question #4 - Are there any plans to compensate players who have purchased lifevision previous to the hide changes?
Announce 3127. Yeah.. I hid away scared from this answer thread too long.
We currently have a policy leaving them very fluid until the actual coding starts. So only one or two have been decided. I don't mind sharing some of the directions we're going in, and I'll chat with those that made some of the ideas, but I know they won't want to be tied to promises. If I say "we're looking at Squirrelfex" in six months when we release Saltfex, people will call me a liar and be mad. Anyway, it's up to the 'owners' of that work. I'm working on mine but it's garbage and I hate it and I am doing October stuff instead.
This may be slightly unrelated, but I have often wondered why we don't have real drugs in the game. I know there's something in Huanazedha, but it wasn't very thrilling, and the Shamans do a little bit with psychotropic plants, but I'm talking about illicit drugs with real effects offered to everyone. I hear people talk about Gleam and it sound like a lot of fun to me. I once heard that people don't want drugs in Aetolia because of IRL reasons, but I never understood why drugs were a problem but, say, alcohol wasn't. There are a LOT of people in Aetolia who would qualify as severe alcoholics and it doesn't seem to bother people. At least I've never seen that expressed.
This isn't a discussion so much as an AMA, so I'll make it into a question. Are serious drugs a possibility in Aetolia?
I could argue and ramble for a long time about how I hate alcohol culture and the hypocrisy of mind altering substance law in the real world. I so won't, but I get you. As to why we don't explore more of the status quo than just "alcohol everywhere, nothing else really" it's because Gleam was largely a mistake. We learned that you can't put something like that in the game without seeing through the lens of the real world. Introducing a cocaine like product into the game also introduced all the real stereotypes of the cocaine addict and industry. It was just too much. (Well, Gleam was kinda like speed, or something, but w/e).
Basically: Adding drugs inadvertently added drug dealers, addicts, abuse, counseling for recovery, and a whole of things that the admin wasn't really equipped or planning for. It can pretty heavily push for stories we weren't ready to tell.
It could kinda be a fun idea for a class of alchemists that gain and lose buffs/debuffs like crazy. Take Solution A to do thing, then Solution B to counter the side effects, but need Solution C to fix those side effects, then decide if injection J is worth it for the increased buffs, or Tincture X to clear up problems and start the loop over. That sounds neat.
A few more questions: What is the process involving player banning? As in, what steps are taken to determine if a player is going to be prevented from playing the game, whether it is short term, long term or permanently? What kind of factors play a role in this (money spent, IC actions, OOC actions, immersion breaking actions, all of the above)? What would it take to have this kind of ban lifted?
My reasons for asking these are many, but I'll share one: at times it feels like some people are allowed to get away with far too much, making other player's time in the game miserable in may different ways, without any noticeable punishment.
This is the question that's giving me a lot of heartache on how to answer, and I know this won't satisfy, but I'll try.
I do my best to be as objective as possible. Some things are easy, like credit card fraud, but behavior is very difficult. Bug abuse is also easy; if you do it, and we can figure it as intentional, you're not worth it to keep around. Even abusive, mean, angry players are perfectly aware that this is a game and you report stuff like that.
Behavior, though... first, I need to know about it. If someone is constantly nice in interactions with me, and never issued, I have no reason to go looking through things about how they act. Next, it needs to be in the game. It has to be pretty egregious for something in a chat program to make it appropriate for me to act in game, especially with how those things can be faked in reporting. Lastly, I use issues and player comment files to build a history. Someone with a history of certain behaviors that has received a warning is going to get worse and worse punishments, until they are gone entirely. Essentially "fired from being a player."
I've almost never done that. Perhaps I should, but often there are two sides of a story. It's why I love IGNORE. If you ignore this abusive person, and they go around it to be abusive, that's an obvious, glaring rules infraction. I also cannot recommend this hard enough: Distance yourself from people who are 'bad' for you. You do not have to talk to them on discord, or pay attention to them whatsoever in game. I know that's not always possible, and I'm sorry. I do try my best, and I mean it when I say that I'm keeping an eye on someone's behavior.
1) In regards to small story/events, what defines it as such? At what point is it no longer considered small and independant but an orgreq and even still, when it is even larger than that?
For some examples; killing off an existing NPC or introducing a new one, changing a few rooms, spawning creatures, something that anyone can participate in versus something that may be geared towards a particular tether, city, or org?
Effort involved, new things needing to be made, the number of players taking part, lasting changes to the world. Some people could be killed easily, others would adjust the story a TON. Usually… small means it's pointed at one org, introduces and NPC rather than eliminating… if it eliminates, it's not someone with large lore impact. Like killing Zsarachnor is a big deal, but lore impact is small. Killing Abhorash messes up lots of stuff.
I almost always just litmus test with "How many Celani do I need help from." and if that number is > 1, it's 'big'. One celani and some oversight = small. Oh, and "do we have to write a script" can also play into that.
An example would be like jotting down ideas in point format with some notes that further expand on a few while listing multiple options and routes that one could choose from, and what direction it might take in the actual execution. Rather than going more indepth and writing out all the actual story and some possible dialogue, etc? (Which of course one would have to allow room for improvisation.)
The less detail involved, the more conversational, the easier it is to use something without the fear of a claim that an idea has been stolen, basically.
That's fine, and if it's in game and you share that with other players, sure. I just have to worry about my volunteer team during those things, and stuff that I do becomes official Admin things. If someone in game tells a story of cow tipping, it's just that. If I make a cow tipping event, people say the Administration advocates the shoving and harming of innocent napping bovines, threaten to call PETA, etc. (I'm being silly here, I mean that I don't want anyone to feel like AETOLIA is pushing your buttons as an entire entity).
Pretty much. Deciding to become a Celani is give and take, you're giving you character up for a while, and we're giving resources.
ALMOST everything is volunteer based. If you don't like X, never raise your hand, let me know, X never is your problem. There are some exceptions like emergencies, but I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Oh, and no one is exempt from minipets. If I demand a minipet I DEMAND ONE NOW MAKE IT (not really).
There are things that are kinda... expected? When the party barge comes around, make a food or a toy. I'm not going to yell and punish if you don't, but like... c'mon. We need the help!
6) Depending if one is a volunteer or a Celeni (if there is a difference) what are the resources available when it comes to the lore of the game? When is it recommended they speak to another person in the pool or staff to get confirmation on things?
Celani are volunteers. We don't currently have anyone paid that is also the level of a Celani anyway. Lore resources… there's a wiki, lots of documentation on mob events, and a ton of secret helpfiles. As to when to speak to the others for confirmation, that's always. We use our discord a TON and actively discuss just about everything, so it's really more of an ongoing conversation. If there's a question, that's how it'll get answered. And if all else fails we yell ARTIFICE and move on anyway.