Announce post #3128: The future of Classleads

AutoposterAutoposter BotMember, Bot Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭
8/3/2020 at 1:18
Tiur, the Gnosis
Everyone
The future of Classleads

The next round of classleads is being skipped as we switch to a 6-month format, with the first round starting in January. During this time we will also be considering other options available to us. Regardless, I'll be handling decisions a bit differently, as I'm a lot more data driven. Closer to classleads there will be a post made outlining the changes in requirements. Expect to require numbers to explain your point!

As Keroc mentioned, Nalus is now the primary contact for any of your combat concerns. We'll be taking a zero tolerance approach regarding vitriolic or otherwise inflammatory messages, so please take time to consider how best to air your concerns before you message them.

-T

Penned by my hand on Gosday, the 5th of Lleian, in the year 489 MA.
AhlysaariaGavramel
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Comments

  • NisaviNisavi Member Posts: 133 ✭✭✭
    While I think it's clear that there was unjustified vitriol towards Keroc and I think most have a good idea of what inflammatory is, you may want to express identify what constitutes inflammatory by the administration at large. That being said, I have a concern:

    With classleads moving towards a six month basis, how are we going to tackle the most recent changes? Will I need to use reports to submit proposals to undo them? Is the administration still working on them with Keroc's departure? Are they being kept the way they are until further notice?
    ArdentDrystinTenshyo
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭✭
    To those who know....

    You know what to do.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
    LinSibatti
  • KodaKoda Member Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    Oonagh said:

    To those who know....

    You know what to do.

    Is this some kind of weird cryptic threat or something?
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3
    Koda said:

    Oonagh said:

    To those who know....

    You know what to do.

    Is this some kind of weird cryptic threat or something?
    Drinking game, I lost.
    I don't drink though, so I am having some hibiscus tea with strawberries....such a lush!

    (As a note...it was if @Nisavi would be the first one to put in their two cents on a classlead related thread....since I don't want to be cryptic)
    (Further notes: We bet on the amount of time it would take to make said comments, and if they would reference reverting all the prior changes)
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
    LinSibattiIesidKanivara
  • LinLin Blackbird The MoongladeMember Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you have to be told what "inflammatory" means you probably just shouldn't talk about the person at all.
    AlixRhineTiurRihrinNaosKanivaraHavenOonaghNisaviIazamat
  • CzciborCzcibor Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited August 3
    I think it's a good thing in the long term for there to be a perception that it's not one person making all the decisions (i.e. decisions should be written using "We" rather than "I").

    I also think we'd save everyone (both admins and players) a lot of headaches if we had some more direction about what roles/play styles some classes are supposed to fill, rather than people just making a lot of reports in the hope of getting something to stick.
    NisaviArdentEscelikaDarim
  • AloliAloli Member Posts: 352 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3
    Nisavi said:



    Because the playerbase needs to be expressly told, otherwise they'll take a mile when provided the inch. It's best, in my honest opinion, to be clear on what is considered inflammatory when there is a zero tolerance policy. Though to dispel any potential insinuations, I did not talk about Keroc in a derisive or derogatory manner, nor would I ever do so. He's a good person.
    ...
    I just don't want criticism or disagreement to be viewed as potentially inflammatory, as Tetchta said.


    Hello Nisavi,

    It's great that you're seeking clarification on something that might confuse you. That is always a good first step, to understand something before being punished for it. That being said, please do not include me in your generalized definition of "playerbase" as I do not need to be told what inflammatory behavior means. We're all grown up enough to know not to teeter technicalities.
    Post edited by Aloli on
    ArdentGalileiNisaviSavasOonaghMjollNaosIazamatEhtiasEleneKanivaraLinTetchtaDarim
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭✭
    @Nisavi impact wise of changes.... I feel that and yes I made the game knowing your questions had not been answered so it was relatively predictable....

    To that end I quit the Syssin class over these changes and ended up picking up Luminary.... since syssin was effectively broken by the changes.... with no real reason other than “an experiment” so I agree with you in that regard and I have heard plenty of people airing grievances like it’s festivus.

    Plus I know you can take a joke so I tagged you in it big guy.
    Overall still wondering about goggles and the changes as well.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
    NisaviArdentKanivaraFezzix
  • BulrokBulrok Member Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    Dw admin Aetolia will figure it out by trial and error, and whenever a message is misread the sender and their friends can jump into their echo chamber and reaffirm their beliefs that x admin is biased towards y tether.
    ShAmAn'S aRe UsEleSs In GrOuPs
    IazamatDrystinRhineFezzix
  • NaosNaos Member Posts: 40 ✭✭✭
    edited August 4
    Edit: Nevermind, it’s just not worth it. 
    Post edited by Naos on
    IazamatDrystinOonagh
  • SeurimasSeurimas Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭
    edited August 5
    Nisavi said:
    client side systems were drastically impacted, firstaid still can't reasonably handle the changes, and Syssin have been pretty severely shafted without a classlead report. Shortening the cooldown on Backstab is a band-aid at best, because it still ignores the fact that Shadowslip is pointless now as a skill, Hide is difficult to maintain without Camouflage, etc.

    I'd like to weigh in on a few of these points, as I'm one of the seemingly few still wanting to give these changes some room to play out.
    • Client side systems: how "drastically" are they really impacted? There should be an immediately obvious patch in most cases. Just use the "aff elixirs first" rule firstaid does. Unless you mean they were impacted at all, in which case, that seems fine. The game will change and systems will need to change alongside it. What makes this change any different?
    • Firstaid seems fine now, unless you're referring to the "aff elixirs first" rule. There's definitely some room for improvements there, but nothing that actually sinks these changes.
    • I agree backstab's cooldown is too large. That said, Camoflage seems like a silly thing to require for top-tier Syssin combat. I don't have the list of relics in front of me to check, but I can't think of any other class which almost requires a relic to excel. That Camoflage became an unofficial part of the Syssin kit because of interactions with backstab seems like a flaw, not a feature.
    • Shadowslip is pointless, yeah, but it doesn't need to be a huge part of the Syssin kit if backstab doesn't require hiding. I assume it will get a fitting rework at some point, but it doesn't seem like a big issue if that rework is a way's out while they feel out how stealth/Syssin combat is fairing after the Hide changes.
    I also don't like that the onus is on us to provide data, because shouldn't these changes have been made similarly with testing and data prior to them being implemented? I'm not going to assume what testing goes on in the Pools, but given the amount of issues that stemmed from these changes like Firstaid not being prepared for them, artifacts not being adjusted to accommodate, etc... that there likely wasn't any data involved, and if there was, it was minimal. I appreciate that you're taking the time and effort, but some things don't require time and effort. Sometimes, it's best to just accept that a mistake was made and revert the changes, because frankly the refusal to do so at this point just comes off as spiteful and akin to a "don't you people have phones!?"-esque response. I'm not saying that you can't revisit these ideas in the future, but it's best to have a complete idea and proposal on how you're going to change things, make the playerbase aware of the incoming changes, and allow for feedback as necessary prior to implementation when they're as wide-ranging and sweeping as they are.
    There's always only so much that can be done by testers before release. Trying to intuit effects on overall gameplay in a test server would require an extended QA period that might not be possible. Mostly because QA is often maligned and there's not necessarily a wealth of volunteer resources lining up to follow through on that testing.

    I don't think that's selfish or short-sighted of them, but that does mean that the players are going to be guinea pigs often enough that some changes will be received poorly. On that note, there is something to be said for communication around these changes which has been lacking. I guess, as someone who hasn't been that strongly affected (besides the backstab change), I can just assume relics and artifacts will be refunded/reworked to some appropriate effect in due course. However, that's a luxury I have as someone who is not invested in those issues, so I am pretty disappointed in the poor communication regarding relics and artifacts. There should have been quicker reassurances about the prospect of refunds and why they're not available yet.

    But, on the note of communication and switching to the topic of them seeming "spiteful", I think that's a poor characterization. The changes with the broadest unintended consequences (celerity) were rolled back pretty much immediately. The rest have been adjusted or fixed based on feedback, both on the forums and solicited directly. The delayed communication may not have been great, even beyond just concerns about relics and artifacts. However, I think it's worth it to take a step back and recognize there's a process being followed that might make for a better game in the long run. Design space is being explored and data is being gathered. There is value in keeping the changes in. I can't definitively say if the value outweighs the potential good will garnered through a rollback, but it's not spiteful to keep them in.
    Saltz
  • DrystinDrystin Member Posts: 117 ✭✭✭
    I get wanting hard data before making drastic changes. But what's being asked for isn't a drastic change. What's being asked for is to put things back the way they were -before- a drastic change was made so that we don't have broken/useless skills AND so that IRE didn't just rip off dozens of people in a recent promotion and act like they didn't. Just being honest here at this point. 

    For arguments sake though let's look at the data... 

    - A recent promotion was held (the most successful ever iirc) where a LOT of players obtained things that were rare at great personal cost and have been made far less valuable by these changes. (see: coldblood, salvage goggles, camouflage) 

    - The reception by the customers to these changes has been overwhelmingly negative and multiple people have asked for a rollback. 

    - Multiple skills have been not only negatively impacted, but made useless by these changes (see: hide, shadowslip, backstab)

    - The stated objective of the hide change specifically which was to make it more useful was not met and in fact made it a 100% useless skill since it's not even required for backstab.

    - The follow up change to backstab to bandaid the hide change actually just made matters worse (especially with group utility). Instead of being able to backstab at the start to slow runners and again if shadowslip procs, we have a huge static delay which isn't anywhere near to one backstab per target when you consider the pace of group combat. I'm sure only 1v1 was considered for this, but I'd argue that the previous version of backstab was balanced fine for both 1v1 and groups.
    NisaviArdentKanivara
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