Chaos Lord and Transparency

StineStine ✭✭✭Member, Bot Posts: 108 ✭✭✭
edited June 19 in Sparring Grounds
Transparent. Transparency. It is a word that is used by administrative positions rather often, and for good reason - it conveys a sense of wanting to draw in whomever they're overseeing and bring them along for the ride. To allow access, to whatever degree, that gives those of us without a complete view the ability to understand and look forward to different aspects of some activity.

It is also something that comes up rather often in Aetolia - new producers promise that it will be better, even if it is used as a buzzword.


ANNOUNCE NEWS #2672
Date: 4/14/2017 at 21:14
From: Tiur
To : Everyone
...
Going forward expect me to continue the history of transparency and
interaction that Oleis and Razmael have had such success with.
...


It's not just producers that offer transparency, however, but other paid folks in the pools. I know that I'm not the only active member of the PK side of the game who messages Keroc with questions about how some skills function, when there are vague notions to them, or just thoughts on certain changes.

Message #3904 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 5/29/2019/1:41
"They are considered normal movement. Anything that'd block WEST (minus a direction) would
block it too."


Message #3875 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 5/25/2019/21:56
"I always thought they were strong, but I suppose if anything the feedback from the polling
thread I made tipped me over into changing it. Plus every time I've made adjacent skills they
never get used because, will, Pulling polarises that battle too much. Too easy to 'win' that
small scale battle with a Shaman."


Message #3801 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 5/08/2019/0:33
"Non-natural healing is skills that'll heal. So anything not elixirs, anabiotic, and
regeneration."


So when I see this happen to me..
Rhyot gives you the once over.
Rhyot uses Chaos Erupt on you.
Agony descends upon you as Rhyot gestures, reality itself violently reasserting its supremacy
within your frail, mortal frame. Magical power burns through you, scourging your nerves, your
eyes, even your mind itself.
Health Lost: 3083, unblockable, none
You have been slain by Rhyot.
You were afflicted by wraith, writhe impaled, and a broken left arm.


Naturally, I ask about it.
Message #3876 Sent By: Stine Received On: 5/25/2019/22:46
"(To Keroc): What is this and why does it do so much damage? There's no reason there should be
secret skillsets. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/q-kHmi6H."


@Emir, @Mjoll, @Fezzix, @Iazamat (and other forum shadow folks) - With the amount of complaints that overwhelm receives, and with knowing how it works, how would you feel about a skill that can do on par damage and have 0 idea how it scales that high, or how it works in general? I would imagine the same desire to want to know would be present.

I wasn't the only one to show some interest in the information, and this is the initial response we received:
Message #3877 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 5/25/2019/22:56
"(Mass: Oonagh, Iesid, Stine) I'll give some thought to it."


Hold up - every other skill in the game is open to free, easy, quick response of information and yet this skill is not?

Unsatisfied, I replied noting some information as above on transparency, as well as comparing releasing a new class ( Chaos Lord ) to League of Legends, and how much information is immediately available to the game's players upon release.

Message #3878 Sent By: Stine Received On: 5/25/2019/23:05
"(To Keroc): (Mass: Keroc, Tiur, Oonagh, Iesid) One of the major selling points for the past
few years has been an effort to be more transparent - whether that is $$ promotions, class
changes/updates (nerfs/ buffs/tweaks), etc. You will never see league of legends release a hero
without showing the abilities, for example. There is no good reason that we should be forced to
go up against something that we don't know how it works."


We didn't hear anything back until 6/5/19, when Iesid followed up through message and we then received the following:
Message #3939 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 6/05/2019/5:33
"(Mass: Tiur, Iesid, Stine, Oonagh) Honestly, I am still undecided. I can understand why you
want to see it, and can agree to some extent. I would not mind seeing a forum thread about it,
to gather the community opinion on it. I don't feel it is a large enough problem right now to
warrant me stepping in without community feedback through forums and/or classleads (if you'd
like to wait until then). To put it into perspective, this is the first time I've been
officially contacted about the Chaos skillset secrecy to my knowledge."


Which brings us to this medium.

You cannot set a precedent for 99% of the game and refuse to budge on the 1%. Especially not something as community wide as PK. Will every person in the game see the Chaos Lord skillset? No. However, those that do should understand what the skills are and how they work, just as every single other class is available for such information. Additionally, it is against the entire spirit of PK where (Shadow/Spirit)'s job is to know what the other side can bring and be prepared for it.

We aren't asking for anything that is out of the realm of expected - open the skillsets to be viewable by everyone.
IesidAloliChurchOonaghHallisZaila
«13

Comments

  • FezzixFezzix ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 262 ✭✭✭✭
    We sort of do have an Overwhelm. I can do more than 1/3 of even the tankiest person's max health with high str, high damage whip garrote on a prone target. It doesn't blackout or scale up, and you have access to it too, but your current group strategy is perfectly counterable.
    ChurchOonagh
  • StineStine ✭✭✭ Member, Bot Posts: 108 ✭✭✭
    @Fezzix Maybe I was unclear, not my intention to suggest you didn't have such an avenue. I more meant, if someone in a Spirit class had a skill that did that much damage and you couldn't learn anything about it, and the damage was unblockable and didn't require aff stacking, wouldn't you want to know how it worked?
  • FezzixFezzix ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 262 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19
    Sure. But I'm honestly fine with the Chaos Lord stuff. He hasn't told any of us either, and while I realize we're the ones reaping the benefits, I think he's earned some gigantic damage output after bashing like an insane person all the way to level 200 and beyond. Chaos Lord isn't a "Shadow class" available to everyone on the tether, either.
  • IesidIesid ✭✭✭ Member, Bot Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    There is a huge precedent that is set by Keroc's usual openness and transparency about combat mechanics. This sort of professional honesty is part of why I took the leap to Aetolia in the first place. Within reason, he will often peel back the curtain for you and give you a reliable answer. Here's a great example:

    Message #2221 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 6/02/2019/0:31
    "You were aggressive before hand I'd say. Purgatory pulls in anyone who has been aggressive in the
    past ~10 minutes or so."

    Message #2222 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 6/02/2019/0:31
    "Might be less actually, let me double check."

    Message #2224 Sent By: Keroc Received On: 6/02/2019/0:33
    "1 minute. If you made an aggressive action in the last minute it will pull you in."


    I neither own nor have any interest in ever owning Zealot. It could be argued that he was more loose with this information because I am a Spirit tether player, but more likely this is just another example of information he has no issue or difficult giving to us. The purpose is always to educate us and let us make better decisions both in daily gameplay and when we come to the table for classleads. I am sure anybody that has a strong interest in this game's PvP has asked him a question that informed your decisions going forward. This is a good thing and should continue.

    We are looking to make educated decisions when handling or planning around the Chaos skills. It has been difficult to find a stated reason as to why Chaos Lord's skills are secret in the first place, which makes it difficult for people to mount a logical argument to the contrary. In addition to Keroc's usual openness, I have access to classpick. These means that I can explore every other class for whatever purpose I might have, and take that information to share or spread as I see fit. I believe concealing information of this nature can only affect an environment negatively in the long term. What's the harm in letting us see some AB files or telling us, like any other class skill, how something works?
  • StineStine ✭✭✭ Member, Bot Posts: 108 ✭✭✭
    Nobody is asking for the skill to be changed, we'd just like to know how it works. Same goes for every other skill. I don't want to go into what is earned or not because that goes into a lot of other factors. We are simply looking at it on an informational basis - if its going to be something that can be used against others, allow people to prepare accordingly. I don't particularly mind that it does 3000 damage, I mind not knowing why.
  • HallisHallis Member Posts: 15
    edited June 19
    I also think it's fine that he does a lot of damage; I think that's missing the point, though. Without knowing how/why erupt (just as an example) does damage, how are we supposed to know what to do against it? Earlier today I was hit for 2,200 unblockable damage with a maximum HP pool of roughly 5100. I have no idea if that's an execute, if it scales off of certain affs, or if it has a cooldown - I know the ability and the damage type, neither of which offer any meaningful counterplay.

    I'm not even saying it's overpowered. I just want to know how and why it does damage so that I know how to play around it.
  • OonaghOonagh ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    edited June 19
    Hi, NON-PK Lore Frog here.

    How does Chaos Lord work now with the way Chaos has been split between Omei and Chakrasul, with Golgotha dying.
    WHAT IS THE LORE BEHIND THE CLASS.
    These are the answers I want to find out. Why cant I throw Orb Sigils at Rhyot and banish him to the Chaos plane.
    (Can we throw Orb sigils at Rhyot and banish him to the Chaos plane, has anyone tried.... >.>)
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
    AloliZaila
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I bet Alexina would have told us :(
    httpsimages-ext-1discordappnetexternal8be0wXv29U0b9e3Zx0Ms-6O19NtmwxMAGo0Hqkw83Ochttpscdndiscordappcomattachments494775592382627840609989230072168448aish_wo_bgpngwidth960height614
    StineAloliKoda
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Honestly if there's anything in there objectionable enough that it needs to be hidden to prevent salt or whatever it should be deleted or restricted severely.
    httpsimages-ext-1discordappnetexternal8be0wXv29U0b9e3Zx0Ms-6O19NtmwxMAGo0Hqkw83Ochttpscdndiscordappcomattachments494775592382627840609989230072168448aish_wo_bgpngwidth960height614
  • IazamatIazamat ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    Stine said:

    @Emir, @Mjoll, @Fezzix, @Iazamat (and other forum shadow folks) - With the amount of complaints that overwhelm receives, and with knowing how it works, how would you feel about a skill that can do on par damage and have 0 idea how it scales that high, or how it works in general? I would imagine the same desire to want to know would be present.


    Trust me, I've had a problem with Chaos Lord's secrecy since day one and continue to dislike that how it works is withheld from everyone else. Several of us, most of the people you've tagged, have repeatedly complained about that very fact. Nothing we've said or done has changed that, though.
    StineIesid
  • RhyotRhyot ✭✭✭✭ BloodlochMember Posts: 384 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19
    Stine said:
    Nobody is asking for the skill to be changed, we'd just like to know how it works.
    Said no one ever. 

    Chaos Lord is not a class. Its a race. It has a single ability and isnt meant for PvP in any capacity. While I'm actively in Chaos Lord I do not have access to all the other benefits being in a real class has. Ie extra buffs, extra defenses. Nothing. I have been told it was never meant to be combat viable by Razmael, Tiur, and Keroc and that it was something given as flavor. I just happen to use it in group combat because its absolutely horrible in 1v1. All of Chaos skills was based more around self defense and being able to tank. Its actually just something given as a bashing flavor.

    It does have a single passive healing skill that has a small percentage that allows me to nullify an affliction. I'm not sure of the proc rate, but its not very high as I don't often redef it unless I'm hunting and even then its not very often. However, it is listed as a defense and after it nullifies 5 afflictions it needs to be redef'd. Which the activation cost is a 5 second balance. (Sorry @Emir for forgetting to put that in.)

    That said, Erupt is a skill that has no scaling. It just hits you but there is a windup for it that is random as all hell. The afflictions are so randomized and janky that I cant even set up an aff caller for it because I dont even know what I'm going to give you when I hit you. And when I do hit you, its a bit pointless to try to say what I hit you with because you might have cured it in the same block of me giving... Who knows! Or maybe someone else has already given the affliction I gave you and it just doubled down. No idea!! Chaos Lord is chaos in itself. Its random and quite frankly... My entire team hates it when I use it in combat because it has absolutely 0 synchronicity with any other class. They literally tell me to use ANY REAL CLASS (Fezzix, Emir... Looking at you buddies).

    That said.... There are other examples of classes that can give similar damage output with either a little windup or no windup at all:

    Shaman can pull 3k+ with an omen (a little windup). They even do 2200 damage with Lightning/Lightning Boosted (absolutely 0 windup and easy to maintain).
    Templars can go pure damage mode and do easy 2500 damage combos with specific skills activated. Also, lets not forget adjacent impale into disembowel for 2500 damage. No windup for that, just go adjacent and Lunge.
    Monks can do massive damage as well. I recall Jami easily hitting me for 2000+ per combo with 0 setup. Even with a 54% blunt audit. They can also use Enfeeble after getting some Kai and that nukes 50% hp AND mp. And its easy to regain Kai in the middle of a group fight and its spammable.  Hell, I've done it. (Makes me laugh too.)
    Maxed out str Praenomen can hit for ~1850 with 50% audit using a 2h weapon.
    Luminary can do Overwhelm for massive amounts of damage.
    Teradrim can also do obscene amounts of damage using Batter or Hammer. Tina and Iazamat are prime examples of this.

    Erupt has a random wind up and its a single burst that I cant spam vs every other skill i just mentioned.


    I havent given out the AB file to anyone. I didnt even give it to Coribhell. I dont want to. I like that there is a bit of mystery to the class, especially given all the hate that Chaos Lords were given during the huge event we just had. Additionally, the mystique and mystery behind it has actually pushed people to want to get to 200 to maybe achieve their own special race (spirit side - I always joke around saying its going to be an Archangel because that would be a hilarious showdown..Archangel v Chaos Lord. :D) or also be a Chaos Lord.


    I dont really desire the AB file being seen. I like the intrigue and mystique it has. If you want to know how something works, ask me. I'll tell you how it works. But I wont give you the AB file. 


    Oonagh said:
    Hi, NON-PK Lore Frog here. How does Chaos Lord work now with the way Chaos has been split between Omei and Chakrasul, with Golgotha dying. WHAT IS THE LORE BEHIND THE CLASS. These are the answers I want to find out. Why cant I throw Orb Sigils at Rhyot and banish him to the Chaos plane. (Can we throw Orb sigils at Rhyot and banish him to the Chaos plane, has anyone tried.... >.>)

    Theres actually a fair bit of lore behind the class, but I am not going to mention any of it on forums. If you want to know, ask Rhyot ICly, but dont expect him to actually give a straight answer because he doesnt trust people. Also... No one has actually ever tried throwing an orb sigil at him before.... So I have no idea if that would work or not!! Food for thought!! Lol.
    Post edited by Rhyot on


    Oonagh
  • KalinaarKalinaar ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭
    I'm fine with it. I'm ok with trying to figure out (yes through dying to it) how something works. You can see what affs you had when you died and no secret stays secret for long in any case with or without admin help.

    ps - If he gets a cool new class for bashing like crazy, can I become a herald once I've reached a sufficient level of trolling skill? 
    Zaila
  • StineStine ✭✭✭ Member, Bot Posts: 108 ✭✭✭
    @Rhyot You're answering questions that nobody has asked. Nobody asked if it was combat viable in your opinion or Keroc/Tiur/Razmael's opinion. Nobody asked for examples of skills that we already know how they work and may or may not do as much or almost as much damage, with different amounts of setup or not.

    Additionally, please point out anywhere in this thread that I or others, shadow or spirit, have said that we think it is so egregious that it should be changed. Even my initial message to @Keroc wasn't, 'this is stupid please change it', it was just a request to understand how it works and what I can do against it. Just as I or any other PK person would do for any other skill that randomly hits us for something unexpected.
  • RhyotRhyot ✭✭✭✭ BloodlochMember Posts: 384 ✭✭✭✭
    And I told you how it works in my previous post. It has a set of requirements that are met randomly and I have no control over.


  • EmirEmir ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    Huge pet peeve of mine is arguing technicalities vs. reality.

    Technicality: Chaos Lord has no passive "curing" according to Rhyot.

    Reality: Chaos Lord has passive aff resistance, at least on some level. He's resisted bruising afflictions at the very least in BP.

    This is, in essence, a lie. It's dishonest and misleading, whether intentional or not. It's part of the reason information not being publicly available is bad.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    StineIazamatIesidBenedicto
  • RhyotRhyot ✭✭✭✭ BloodlochMember Posts: 384 ✭✭✭✭
    Forgive me for making a slight blunder, oh mighty Emir. Knower of all things.


    Kalinaar
  • EmirEmir ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    You're missing the point and taking it personally. Don't do that. 
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    Iazamat
  • ChurchChurch ✭✭ Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Sorry guys the reality is there are no AB files and Rhyot is under a weird NDA
  • RhyotRhyot ✭✭✭✭ BloodlochMember Posts: 384 ✭✭✭✭
    There you go. Editted for the one passive healing skill I have (with balance time too!!)


  • IesidIesid ✭✭✭ Member, Bot Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    edited June 19
    It can also resist restoration breaks, to my knowledge. Of course, my knowledge could be wrong because we have no access to the skills or AB files. This is an actual issue.

    Mystique and mystery do not justify balance, nor a lack of information.

    Scarcity is not a proper replacement for logic in a discussion on strategy, nor is it a suitable replacement for balance in a discussion on what is fair. Just because only one person has access to these skills doesn't make this any better. We can have neither conversation right now due to scarcity of information.

    Scarcity is not fun, nor mysterious. There is no prestige in bashing that can be taken away by everyone knowing the prize. It's a manufactured concept based entirely on one person's refusal. Why does one person get to gatekeep information that I can use to make better decisions? Based even on a fresh post right here, I am loathe to believe he will be forthcoming with all info I need.

    Release the AB files, please. This isn't a difficult issue and it goes directly against your promise of openness, @Tiur

    Edit: also, in every single example by Rhyot above... We know how those skills work. We can ask K questions about them. We can test them with class pick. We cannot with Chaos Lord. Why?
    IazamatStine
  • AloliAloli ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 238 ✭✭✭
    I like finding fun RP wherever possible.

    So, I had to do this and of course, it took a little convincing to get him to agree to meet.



    (Tells): You tell Rhyot, "Shall I hunt you down then instead of the politeness of agreeing to a mutual meeting?"

    Shadows around Rhyot dim the surroundings as he steps in from the west.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    Rhyot raises an eyebrow questioningly.

    You smile at Rhyot.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    You give a black rose to Rhyot.

    You start to wield an orb sigil in your left hand.

    You cock back your arm and throw an orb sigil at Rhyot.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    Rhyot raises an eyebrow questioningly.

    You ponder Rhyot's profile, deep in consideration.

    Prince "Shadowlord" Rhyot Bahir'an, Warlord of Chaos says, "First time someone has tried that."

    Rhyot ponders the situation.

    You say, "I suppose you're not that kind of Warlord of Chaos."

    Prince "Shadowlord" Rhyot Bahir'an, Warlord of Chaos says, "No. I'm better."

    Rhyot taps his nose knowingly.

    The corners of your mouth turn up as you grin mischievously.

    You say, "Maybe a bigger sigil."
    RhyotOonaghIesidChurch
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 731 admin
    Aloli said:

    I like finding fun RP wherever possible.

    So, I had to do this and of course, it took a little convincing to get him to agree to meet.



    (Tells): You tell Rhyot, "Shall I hunt you down then instead of the politeness of agreeing to a mutual meeting?"

    Shadows around Rhyot dim the surroundings as he steps in from the west.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    Rhyot raises an eyebrow questioningly.

    You smile at Rhyot.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    You give a black rose to Rhyot.

    You start to wield an orb sigil in your left hand.

    You cock back your arm and throw an orb sigil at Rhyot.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    Rhyot raises an eyebrow questioningly.

    You ponder Rhyot's profile, deep in consideration.

    Prince "Shadowlord" Rhyot Bahir'an, Warlord of Chaos says, "First time someone has tried that."

    Rhyot ponders the situation.

    You say, "I suppose you're not that kind of Warlord of Chaos."

    Prince "Shadowlord" Rhyot Bahir'an, Warlord of Chaos says, "No. I'm better."

    Rhyot taps his nose knowingly.

    The corners of your mouth turn up as you grin mischievously.

    You say, "Maybe a bigger sigil."
    I am disappointed that I overslept and didn't have time to code in a one off joke where the sigil works. MISSED OPPORTUNITIES.

    I'm not just swinging in with a joke, I'm following this thread with interest. Sometimes the loudest voices are a minority, so it's good to have this as an open discussion and hear other opinions.
    AloliIesidMoxie
  • AloliAloli ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 238 ✭✭✭
    Tiur said:

    Aloli said:

    I like finding fun RP wherever possible.

    So, I had to do this and of course, it took a little convincing to get him to agree to meet.



    (Tells): You tell Rhyot, "Shall I hunt you down then instead of the politeness of agreeing to a mutual meeting?"

    Shadows around Rhyot dim the surroundings as he steps in from the west.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    Rhyot raises an eyebrow questioningly.

    You smile at Rhyot.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    You give a black rose to Rhyot.

    You start to wield an orb sigil in your left hand.

    You cock back your arm and throw an orb sigil at Rhyot.

    Rhyot appears irritated as the sun bears down upon him.

    Rhyot raises an eyebrow questioningly.

    You ponder Rhyot's profile, deep in consideration.

    Prince "Shadowlord" Rhyot Bahir'an, Warlord of Chaos says, "First time someone has tried that."

    Rhyot ponders the situation.

    You say, "I suppose you're not that kind of Warlord of Chaos."

    Prince "Shadowlord" Rhyot Bahir'an, Warlord of Chaos says, "No. I'm better."

    Rhyot taps his nose knowingly.

    The corners of your mouth turn up as you grin mischievously.

    You say, "Maybe a bigger sigil."
    I am disappointed that I overslept and didn't have time to code in a one off joke where the sigil works. MISSED OPPORTUNITIES.

    I'm not just swinging in with a joke, I'm following this thread with interest. Sometimes the loudest voices are a minority, so it's good to have this as an open discussion and hear other opinions.
    She's searching for a level 200+ orb sigil! Maybe there's a chance still?
  • RhyotRhyot ✭✭✭✭ BloodlochMember Posts: 384 ✭✭✭✭
    Oonagh said:

    Artifact idea:

    The Quiet Rhyot - a plus-size sigil of chaos banishment - 40 ironcoins

    Useable once per howling, you can shoo away the Lord of Chaos in a manner of temporary inconvenience, sending him back to his hoard of empty chalices and chocolate boxes.
    How divine! When thrown it attaches to the target, and one must say the key words, "We're not gonna take it" to activate.

    As your friendly neighborhood Chaos Lord, I approve of this idea.


    Just don't spam it on me please.


    MoxieOonaghHallis
  • FezzixFezzix ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 262 ✭✭✭✭
    Before you throw it at him, you have to yell CUM ON FEEL THE NOIZE
    OonaghIesid
  • OonaghOonagh ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    edited June 20
    I just realized I messed up my bands, @Fezzix is right, Cum on Feel the Noize, is Quiet Riot....I quoted a Twisted Sister song.
    RIP my music cred.
    (..and yes, it is spelled that way)

    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
    FezzixIesidTeani
This discussion has been closed.