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Group PK and YOU
Just kidding, the following post is just about group PK. No one cares about you.
So, group PK at a large scale, large being anything over 3v3(MAYBE 4v4), is just about dogpiling damage. @Keroc has made a few changes that have /sort/ of effected this, the main ones being the addition of Wisp and Leer, and too a much lesser effect, the change to Dementia.
These abilities all break up coordination in some way, but they’re not fun to play against or challenging to use in a meaningful way. Sentinels order an animal to kill someone they want isolated, vampires just use one ability and then move on with their lives. The counters to these are some super intensive coding to track combat messages, users, and targets, or to very very quickly kill the thing/person who caused it.
Another change that was implemented and plays a role in group combat? Disperse.
Disperse is amazinggggggggg, and is fun, and you get a sense of accomplishment using it. Yay, I saved Mjoll from Stines overwhelm. Yay, I saved Benedicto from tearing Fezzix’s guts out with disembowel. Etc.
With these 2 things in mind I started coming up with some reasoning as to why one was fun and the other not, why one was insanely effective and the other was effective but not enough to change the entire flow of a fight, and how to recreate the feeling and effectiveness of Disperse. While brainstorming the first rough draft of these ideas with other players, it grew a little and I came to the conclusion that redefining our support abilities would ultimately fix this ‘problem’. Some examples are below!
(Please note, all examples of these changes would only be changes when the ability is used on another target. If used on yourself, they would act as they always have)
Naturalism Barrier/Desiccation Shield:
When used on an ally, shields them like normal, but also gives them a temporary ~20-40% damage resistance to all types of damage for X seconds
Tarot Priestess:
If the devilpact defense is active when this is thrown, it will also throw a Fool tarot alongside it. The Fool will only cure one affliction at random, but will incur no cooldown for class curing on either target.
Devotion Hands:
If the Luminary has Angel Battle balance when performing this ability on an allied target, the Angel will reach out and aid in healing the targeted ally and remove one affliction at random. Similar as Priestess, it won’t incur a cooldown on class curing for either target.
“Wow Emir you’re trying to make it impossible to focus fire down one person.”
Yes. Precisely. Throwing in OP supports means that if you focus on mowing down just one person, then every person who has a support ability can just focus on keeping them alive. Combine that + natural hinder from those still running an offense + the persons curing, and it becomes much more difficult in killing that one person.
“But Emir, that just means whoever has the most OP support abilities is gonna win!”
Yes, if everyone follows the tactic up there, listed above. Whoever has the most support or the most damage to outpace the other teams support players will win eventually. But now you have options, options you didn’t have before, options that matter now and didn’t then. That little Luminary is pouring his heart and soul into keeping Stine alive, and our little Indorani that could is going through forests worth of wood in tarot cards to keep Mjoll up. What if one of them died? That would tip the scales?
“Goodpoint Emir. But now we just focus the supports immediately and then go back to wailing on each other.”
In comes Wayfarer shouting taunts! In comes Soul Reave taunts! Or Cleave taunts! Or artibash taunts! Can’t kill my support if you’re mechanically forced to hit me for the next 6s! Not mechanically forced to hit me? Is one of your friends going to stop my Reave? Are you going to kill my Indorani before this channel finishes?
Now we have rotating targets and a system that is much harder to automate (yes Toz, I know it’s still possible), or we have split targets! The support abilities are gated by eq and balance just like everything else. If you split targets, then me shielding Mjoll isn’t nearly as effective, since 2 of you are hitting Mjoll and 2 of you are hitting me. Can I keep shielding Mjoll while I fend for my own life?
“Whatever Emir, you’re dumb, this is all dumb. It’ll never work.”
Well, that’s why I’m here. To present this idea to all of you and see what you make of it. I don’t think this idea ‘as is’ is going to fix all of our problems, but I think it’s on the right path. Please leave any suggestions, comments, or ideas below.
So, group PK at a large scale, large being anything over 3v3(MAYBE 4v4), is just about dogpiling damage. @Keroc has made a few changes that have /sort/ of effected this, the main ones being the addition of Wisp and Leer, and too a much lesser effect, the change to Dementia.
These abilities all break up coordination in some way, but they’re not fun to play against or challenging to use in a meaningful way. Sentinels order an animal to kill someone they want isolated, vampires just use one ability and then move on with their lives. The counters to these are some super intensive coding to track combat messages, users, and targets, or to very very quickly kill the thing/person who caused it.
Another change that was implemented and plays a role in group combat? Disperse.
Disperse is amazinggggggggg, and is fun, and you get a sense of accomplishment using it. Yay, I saved Mjoll from Stines overwhelm. Yay, I saved Benedicto from tearing Fezzix’s guts out with disembowel. Etc.
With these 2 things in mind I started coming up with some reasoning as to why one was fun and the other not, why one was insanely effective and the other was effective but not enough to change the entire flow of a fight, and how to recreate the feeling and effectiveness of Disperse. While brainstorming the first rough draft of these ideas with other players, it grew a little and I came to the conclusion that redefining our support abilities would ultimately fix this ‘problem’. Some examples are below!
(Please note, all examples of these changes would only be changes when the ability is used on another target. If used on yourself, they would act as they always have)
Naturalism Barrier/Desiccation Shield:
When used on an ally, shields them like normal, but also gives them a temporary ~20-40% damage resistance to all types of damage for X seconds
Tarot Priestess:
If the devilpact defense is active when this is thrown, it will also throw a Fool tarot alongside it. The Fool will only cure one affliction at random, but will incur no cooldown for class curing on either target.
Devotion Hands:
If the Luminary has Angel Battle balance when performing this ability on an allied target, the Angel will reach out and aid in healing the targeted ally and remove one affliction at random. Similar as Priestess, it won’t incur a cooldown on class curing for either target.
“Wow Emir you’re trying to make it impossible to focus fire down one person.”
Yes. Precisely. Throwing in OP supports means that if you focus on mowing down just one person, then every person who has a support ability can just focus on keeping them alive. Combine that + natural hinder from those still running an offense + the persons curing, and it becomes much more difficult in killing that one person.
“But Emir, that just means whoever has the most OP support abilities is gonna win!”
Yes, if everyone follows the tactic up there, listed above. Whoever has the most support or the most damage to outpace the other teams support players will win eventually. But now you have options, options you didn’t have before, options that matter now and didn’t then. That little Luminary is pouring his heart and soul into keeping Stine alive, and our little Indorani that could is going through forests worth of wood in tarot cards to keep Mjoll up. What if one of them died? That would tip the scales?
“Goodpoint Emir. But now we just focus the supports immediately and then go back to wailing on each other.”
In comes Wayfarer shouting taunts! In comes Soul Reave taunts! Or Cleave taunts! Or artibash taunts! Can’t kill my support if you’re mechanically forced to hit me for the next 6s! Not mechanically forced to hit me? Is one of your friends going to stop my Reave? Are you going to kill my Indorani before this channel finishes?
Now we have rotating targets and a system that is much harder to automate (yes Toz, I know it’s still possible), or we have split targets! The support abilities are gated by eq and balance just like everything else. If you split targets, then me shielding Mjoll isn’t nearly as effective, since 2 of you are hitting Mjoll and 2 of you are hitting me. Can I keep shielding Mjoll while I fend for my own life?
“Whatever Emir, you’re dumb, this is all dumb. It’ll never work.”
Well, that’s why I’m here. To present this idea to all of you and see what you make of it. I don’t think this idea ‘as is’ is going to fix all of our problems, but I think it’s on the right path. Please leave any suggestions, comments, or ideas below.
(Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
15
Comments
I note that you make no changes to other avenues that could define supports - group buffs, crowd control, etc. I think this is also good space to tap for further ways to expand Support as a role.
On crowd control specifically, I don't speak for everyone, but I think writhes are sort of a boring meta of commonplace CC. I'd like to play up more elements like Fury Taunt, Banish, Isolate, etc... things that don't make you sit and watch as you die. Things that make you lose only if you don't respond dynamically.
On group buffs, I'd love to see more classes defined in teams by what they can bring to pop once a fight to turn tides or press advantages. I'm sure I could think of something if I gave it a little more time, but things like Wayfarer Phalanx and Anthem are just a little too bland/weak to qualify for what I mean. I'm fishing for something more like World of Warcraft's iconic Bloodlust buff, Orisa's Damage Totem in Overwatch, etc.
Great post, overall. Would be excited to see a discussion on this that goes further in depth.
@Keroc I know we've talked about this but chime in here maybe? Maybe help stir discussion or other ideas?
Group combat in Aetolia has always been heavily geared in favor of the side that can pull greater numbers, deal more damage, and coordinate players with combat systems. Positively, this facet of Aetolian combat can get inexperienced combatants more interested and invested in fighting so they feel like they're making a difference. Negatively, however, more experienced combatants see group combat as too simple or boring, where a larger group of people with no experience or insight into what their skills actually do are fighting effectively because they've had some code distributed to them.
Combat systems have always been available to players, but recently they have become so optimized that group combat has reached its inevitable point of full automation with minimal player input required. Experienced combatants are seeing their skill as having a negligible effect on group fights, and this is a problem. I understand the argument that the experienced fighters will always have Sect or 1v1 duels, but 1v1 duels don't impact the game in the same manner as group combat. Group combat wins wars, while 1v1 is more for personal grudges and sport. A change needs to happen in how group combat is hard coded into Aetolia so that experienced players can have a larger impact while still keeping newer players involved and valuable. What I'm looking for here is a middle ground.
I propose a system that expands on what the Crown of Omens currently does. For each hostile player dealing any damage or affliction source (including aoe and passives), the victim gains a scaling bonus. Three hostile players on a victim will see no change. Upon the fourth hostile player hitting a victim, a 5% bonus to dodge gets applied to the victim along with a 10% resistance to all damage and a 10% chance to resist ALL afflictions, including limb breaks and writhe effects. This bonus will scale linearly for every additional hostile player hitting the victim; a fifth player will apply an extra 5% dodge, 10% damage resist, and 10% aff resist rate and so on. There is no cap on these scaling bonuses. When a sixth player commits a hostile action on a victim, the victim gains a nimbleness effect in addition to all previous bonuses to eliminate the internal dodge cooldown. If five seconds pass without a hostile player hitting target, their effect fades.
This system will incentivize large groups to split into smaller teams when focusing on their targets. Groups will have to focus more on their individual team makeup to get kills. Ducking in and out of a room and tanking attacks will be more manageable, and players will have a better chance at survival. Groups will have to train more leaders, and if members from small teams get killed, they'll have adapt and consolidate to stay as effective. This system rewards groups who can predict the team makeup of the enemy group and force confusion when they whittle down team members and force the enemy group to reorganize on the fly.
My proposal will make "instabashing" a much rarer occurrence, and it will make group combat more cerebral. Experienced players will have a larger impact, and the value of larger numbers and inexperienced players will be moderated while still being essential. Larger groups will still have an edge; it just won't be as sharp, and automation (and distributed systems) will still be important without being the be all, end all of Aetolian combat. This is the middle ground.
Thank you for your consideration.
-(Thanks @Church) On paper, this would make AoE either an effective detriment to the team by buffing the defenses of every enemy, which defeats the whole purpose of the ability type, or would be absurdly good if AoE abilities were made to not count for the purposes of a unique hit. If we make AoE abilities count for this, then classes like new mage effectively eat a huge nerf as their passive vibrations do more to benefit the enemy team than harm. If we don't, AoE abilities spike in utility and usability, as they are unaffected by the proposed change, potentially pushing classes that are already very good in groups into being far too strong. This is especially harmful for classes that might rely on potentially AoE abilities to set up single target kills.
-On that note, how do we define hostile actions? What's to stop me from launching a newbie kick at an ally to count as one more hostile player and stack their scaling buff that much higher? Would damage from a player of the same tether not count at all? Then that brings us back to the issue of AoE abilities - if I cast blizzard, I am hitting every single person in the room for the same damage before audit. Same as firestorm. So if it counts for the enemy it should count for the ally as well.
-Some people absolutely have to be focused down because in groups their class's skillset is too useful and can secure kills too quickly. Making them effectively immortal if too many people try to focus them down is a recipe for disaster, in terms of balance. That said, this wouldn't actually be too much of an issue, because:
-This would not force much of a change. People would simply utilize multiple callers and split up the listeners into smaller groups, per caller. While it would slow kill time, in practice even two to three people can lock absurdly quickly (see any class capable of physical affs teaming up with an archivist to unravel, off the top of my head). While it would make purely damage-oriented kill routes worse, adjusting to stacking afflictions is not particularly more or less strategic than piling on damage, as the focused target's ability to do anything is fairly limited either way. Whether I'm locked for an insta in 20 seconds (and that's a generous figure) or bashed down in roughly the same number of rounds, there wasn't a whole lot I could do. In fact, at least with damage routes I'd have more of a chance to throw some abilities of my own out before I die. I do personally prefer smaller group combat, but the focused target of 3 people will probably not have much to do regardless, assuming people play to the strengths of their class.
-I sympathize with the fact that 1v1 skill doesn't have as much of an impact on events as group skill and organization. Maybe there's a way to have more impactful duels in the future instead of them being largely reserved for sect fights or personal grudges. However, an important clarification should be made - when you say experienced combatants, it seems (to me, and I'm not trying to misinterpret you, so correct me if I'm wrong) that you're referring specifically to people experienced in 1v1. That is a whole different ballgame to group pk, requiring different skillsets, and experience in one will not always translate to the other. Frankly, I'd say it's a good thing that one side having more experienced 1v1 players does not mean that they will win group engages solely based on their dueling skill.
To conclude, I don't disagree that group PK requires a bit of fine-tuning (new mages in particular have many extremely impactful abilities that will probably shake up the meta, some of which likely will need adjustment for the sake of group combat, though we'll have to wait and see how it plays out in practice). However, while I can see how this might help, I don't think it would solve the inherent problems of group PK balance, especially as the main benefits of systems that automate are fairly easy to set up on both ends (and the primary systems in question are both easily available to both tethers, as shown by illusions in the past perfectly set up to hit somewhat triggers unique to at least one of those systems). I'd be more inclined to accept the original idea posted in this thread, concerning more support abilities, if only because opening up more playstyles is always interesting.
But those are just my thoughts, and I'm interested to see what other people think.
In regards to AoE, yes, it could be a detriment if you go too heavy on it. If you have two shifters with full enemy lists using howls, or an Indorani using Deathaura, or three Sciomancers using singularity effects, these hostile actions will pile up. Manage your enemy lists and manage who gets to use the AoE abilities, because in many cases hitting 9 people and granting an extra 10% audit to them could be worth it after all.
If you want to newbiekick your own people and negate three of your people's offensive capabilities to give one of your power players an extra 15% dodge and 30% audit/resist, go ahead. I've held the Crown of Omens and been hit by 6 or 7 people before, and I was still very killable. These buffs do not necessarily guarantee survival; they grant some much needed wiggle room. That target might still want to leave, rendering those three newbkickers essentially useless.
What we currently have requires so little thought and input from the players that it's become more of a spectator sport than a game. Spamming transfix after all your teammates have died and you haven't realized it yet is not a "different skillset" or a "playstyle." Typically, the people who are capable of ingenuity and creativity in group settings are also competent in 1v1 settings. What we have right now is more automation than skill by direct player input.
Disperse, Ethereal, Thorncoat, Defend, etc. are all good examples of assist abilities that I think are clever and add extra layers to combat. They tend to need to be powerful to offset the loss in offensive pressure though, otherwise I don't think they work too great. Something like Reflection sounds nice on paper, but it isn't powerful enough to take the place of extra damage (although it has a niche in prep so you can stop a big skill that usually comes early in a fight).
The great thing about these abilities is that they require some thought before use. Like with Ethereal, it's only effective vs. physical attacks. This requires you to understand your enemies group composition which is not something that can be easily automated. So it's rewarding for the group leader who informs their group when to use it, or for the individual who can make that decision on their own.
Something to consider for suggestion purposes!
Instead of adding new tools, if # people in room > 6, drastically reduce options.
Make every class have 2-4 skills they can use in group combat that do explicit things that work together to accomplish kill conditions.
Massive group combat is unbalanceable as is, and will always feel unfair - there are too many options.
For the rest of the post, I think I will agree to disagree and move on. We've seen multiple examples with the current PK system of the outnumbered side winning, either through creative use of mechanics or just knowing their class and their allies' classes well. I think with the exception of obvious outliers like Wisp and Leer, forced adaptation to new abilities is a good way to shake up the meta. While I think this is another interesting way to approach it, I think cutting back on the number of usable abilities might also be a bit of a strange choice - you're effectively cutting away a wide variety of combos and compositions that are interesting to play around, with the limitation that they're only usable in duels or very small groups (at max a 3v2). In the end, the benefit from outnumbering your opponent doesn't seem to be mitigated unless I'm missing something, you just have even less to do.
EDIT: All that said, because I feel like I'm not really contributing to the topic so much as just arguing with other people's ideas - I think the problem with group PK lies more in the venue than the core gameplay. I can think of one group PK activity that doesn't encourage a straight-up zerg rush, and it's a chance to happen in one stage of a major. Orrery encourages camping as a group. Lessers encourage camping as a group. Most major levels encourage camping as a group. Something more objective oriented would be nice, but I understand that it's probably hard to come up with something like that while limited by the text-based nature of the game, leaving me at a bit of an impasse.
You can't solve this issue without using the "human element" as the solution. You need to be addressing this issue with strategic options, not a sweeping Team PK Penalty. Start asking for skills that are on par/in line with things like Leer/Wisp/Isolate, etc. You need skills that add moving pieces or that start new strategies. Ask for skills with effects that require lengthy responses or attention to detail. Ask for defensive skills that flourish when under the gun of being outnumbered. Ask for new abilities that attack the meta.
The meta, right now, is "everybody dogpile dmg". Maybe we need a shell-like damage absorber, a la Power Word: Shield from World of Warcraft? Maybe a skill that interferes with single target damage? Maybe more porcupine responses like Kaido Deliverance?
There's plenty of options to ask for. Be careful what you wish for... you'll kick yourself for it once the shoe is on the other foot. You won't achieve a desired result in this game without big picture thinking - this change would have long term ramifications for the ceiling of team combat.
Shield of Absorption from Achaea....
(I said it)
It was those kind of things that could really make and break a raid in Achaea, that added amount of survival really has some amazing benefits, and can change up the options against a group just bashing on you.
I still think the mechanic made for interesting group fights, however, but would definitely need to have that exploit addressed. Not sure how that would be done, but I think group fights would be a lot more interesting if there was some sort of endurance draining defense that could be turned on to limit the number of people able to crowd in and attack you. If I recall correctly, being the 5th person attempting to attack said person would get a message saying something like, 'It's too crowded to attack this target.' I believe the defense was called crowding.
I would see something like this essentially ignoring AoE damage and probably looking into whether or not the individuals are sharing a web? I dunno, it could still be abused but in the end it would ultimately be more interesting to see group combat require spreading of targets in order to be more effective.
I also really like the idea of supportive skills being introduced for group combat, but still think there's an issue of dog pile despite these possibilities.
You're also assuming here that I'll hate my own idea if I continue to lose. Just yesterday a group I led lost a 5v5 at a lesser, and I was fine with it because I was never at the mercy of being instantly disabled and killed. You're using my own points as counterpoints against my argument and basing it on the bad faith that I'll hate it later because I'm still losing.n The "human element" is the entire point behind my proposal. What we're seeing now is players walking into a room and acting like bots, not players. Smaller group fights do make the human element the solution.
My problem with introducing more "strategic options" that encourage direct player input is that it will throw class balance into the mix, which is a much larger puzzle to solve to achieve balance. Some of these abilities geared towards group combat can already be easily abused in 1v1. Thaumaturgy Shift and Kaido Banish are fight resets with no recourse. Some abilities geared towards 1v1 are already overpowered in groups, like how Spirituality Overwhelm can hit for more than half someone's health after only two rounds of attacks, or how Psionics Tether can knock someone unconscious and then a monk can Tekura Axekick for an instakill.
The easy fix for some of these problems are to disable them in the Sect arena, but that doesn't solve the problem. Real world duels do happen. This was actually my original idea, but after talking to Toz, it seemed too easily abused. Having the stacking dodge/resist/audit buff made this abuse a far less impactful course of action.
Let's say there's eight people.
Shadow and Spirit design there team 1 and team 2's.
They fight each other.
Then they go to the next round depending on a set of factors. Not sure what it would be. Last two to die.
Either way it goes, I don't find group combat as a big issue, but any of these suggestions could be an interesting beta. But changing the mechanics of group fights by removing skills or removing the ability of people attacking you is not the answer.