Class Viability

KerocKeroc A small cupboardMember, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 432 admin
Hey guys,

Long time ago, when we had liaisons, I had them fill out a form for me to gather information on classes that were considered weak or strong. I used this information to make a lot of changes to classes that were in need.

As such, I have prepared a new form and I'd like it very much if you guys would answer it. It won't be the final word for discussions about who needs what, but it'll definitely have some influence in my decisions going forward.

You can find the form here.

You will need to sign into a Google account in order to answer it just so I don't end up with multiple submissions from one person. You will remain anonymous however.

If you want to add anything else for discussion purposes, feel free to post on this forum thread!

Thanks!

RijettaSaltzOonaghIesidFezzixAloliStine
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Comments

  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    so, just to clarify, this is essentially an opinion poll? how do you go about weighing the information?
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




  • KerocKeroc A small cupboardMember, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 432 admin
    edited May 1
    Mostly I expect the outliers to have worth. In between might be tougher to gauge, but I can mix my own expectations and thoughts with the general opinion to get a rough picture.

    I'll likely average up the scores and throw it up here once I close the form.

    VyxsisIesidKalinaar
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 248 ✭✭✭✭
    Looks like I'll have to dust off my lifer alt and dump credits into optimizing luminary. It is, in my opinion, "S" tier and largely untapped with few weaknesses to exploit. I'd dump sentinel into S tier too if it weren't gimped by disfigurement (which some classes can't even deliver).
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 79 ✭✭✭
    I'm surprised Carnifex is so high on solo still considering both Mjoll and I have been having a lot of trouble achieving a proper kill with either aff or limb. We can damage people out, I guess, but we're both heavily artifacted and stack strength.

    I'm also surprised it's only B tier in group!! I thought it would be A for sure!
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 213 ✭✭✭
    Honestly I tried to consider Carnifex when I did it but I noticed the only times I die to Carnifex in group is brute damage I don’t see their afflictions or toolkit as strong as other classes or even used in lesser battles it’s just a get the Carnifex to bash people down cause loldamage
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    indorani being A-tier is a laugh, especially for groups. i don't mean to say the class is bad, but with piss-poor curing and kill conditions you can see coming from 10 miles away... and syssin is S-tier, but luminary isn't? lmfa- er, well, anyways. opinions, right?

    tbh, my impression is that this mostly shows that groupthink is the real strongest class, as it almost always is. i'll be curious to see exactly how this impacts things going forward.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




    Kalinaar
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 79 ✭✭✭
    Oonagh said:
    Honestly I tried to consider Carnifex when I did it but I noticed the only times I die to Carnifex in group is brute damage I don’t see their afflictions or toolkit as strong as other classes or even used in lesser battles it’s just a get the Carnifex to bash people down cause loldamage
    Carni kill conditions in group require pretty good coordination. They are super dangerous with 2 carni or like, carni/shifter or carni/teradrim, because more than once source of salve pressure leaves you wide open to crush. But without that coordination yeah, better to just doublebash, you'll never steal enough soul to do anything worthwhile.
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    Oonagh
  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 40
    edited May 3
    Luminary:
    Solo: strong vs people who don't have 8k+ health and mana, weak vs those that do. Luminary relies on either outright damage with overwhelm or the bleeding plus heavy aff pressure to drop an opponents mana below 45% in order to absolve. Those that cure well and have enough health to tank a few overwhelms, will simply cure out after a few overwhelms, because overwhelm does not give an affliction and has a high balance cost. The limb route you straight said isn't and will not be viable, and while peace was mildly useful before the nerf, a luminary since the nerf to peace no longer has a strong hinder route. This is compounded by the fact that crash, not only cannot be used in combination with chasten, but the fact that crash does not give an affliction needed to be cured by pills, tree, focus, renew or really anything but regular balance with any way to capitalize off of it, because anyone with disruption will simply cure confusion and concentrate to get rid of it. This is my experience with it, which leads to my opinion of, simply cure well and have enough health and mana and you'll counter a luminary every time. My rank would concur with Kerocs as an A rank.

    Group: This is pretty complex as really all classes on both sides rely on everyone in the group coming to a consensus on what route to go. And when my group decides to go limb route, I find Shifter to be a much stronger option, especially with skills like quarter. That being said, if a luminary manages to use smash or even shield crush with a tower shield during a class fight, there is no doubt in my mind, that they can do stupid amounts of limb damage. And with the ability to cause massive damage on a prone/fallen opponent with that much limb damage, as well as blackout and bleeding, and instantly kill with absolve should they clot too much. It can be one of the strongest options. It would required a large amount of knowledge, time and skill in coding to be optimal but once you have it, would be definitely stronger than my solo rating. So i'd rate it as the 'S' rank.

    Sciomancer:
    Solo: Not really enough people using it in sect. So really hard to say. I will say their options are pretty strong, as Emir fought me a handful of times, and beat me with it. Even as a luminary, vs a class that uses mana quite a bit. But he and Mazzion were the only ones I've ever fought with it. I have managed to beat both of them in the class. But honestly Mazzion in that class, may or may not be capable of doing more than dropping a 6-12 holobombs and just straight damage kill you and tank through it himself. If he can do more. I've never seen him do it. So my perspective on the class is just incomplete. That being said the fact both of them have just straight damage killed me that way, in my opinion also makes it stronger than Keroc has rated it. I give it at least the 'A' rank.

    Group: Nearly impossible to use anything useful in terms of vibes or affliction kills. So overall a weak class, that being said Mazzion and Emir's ability to drop 15 singularities and wipe out entire groups of people during lessers and majors if they don't respond fast enough from the air, is pretty friggin OP. I put this in the Group section even though it technically only requires one solo person to do this to a group and is dangerous to their own group as well if done while the two are fighting. Which is the only reason i don't grant the 'S' rank. I rank it again as the 'A' rank.

    Archivist: S rank. With the sheer versatility, heavy affliction pressure, and an insta-kill thats pretty easy to get off in either group or Solo situations I give Archivist 'S' rank in both.

    Indorani:
    Solo: 'S' rank. With all the hinder, and aff pressure from tarot+dominated minions, as well as the ability to give aeon, which slows every action whether attacking, or curing by 1.5 seconds would alone make this one of the strongest classes. Add that to the fact that it's nearly impossible to hinder them pushes Indorani over the top and makes this class hands down one of the best in game. Clumsiness, blurry vision, a single broken arm and/or leg doesn't slow them down at all. And they can heal heavy affliction pressure as well with a class skill. Put all this together with the ability to delay the effects of disfigurement and face maul with the charisma artifact and negate orb sigils and luminary banishment with domination collars, makes this class unstoppable.

    Group: 'B' rank. As most group combat situations are either based on damage killing or limb damage, Indorani doesn't have strong options to either. They 'can' disrupt pretty well and have decent crowd control, as well as pulling capability which makes them useful in a sense, but that's about as far as it goes.

    Syssin:
    Solo: 'S' rank: Fezzix is a monster with this class. I use him as an example because he's the most capable person with it, and has shown me that in the most capable hands it's nearly impossible to stop. Though I feel i've gotten close to beating him in a class that he considers it's counter, i've never actually done it. That speaks enough to me about how strong it is in the right hands.

    Group: 'B' rank: As most syssin kills rely on stacking afflictions on a person to kill them, most group situations just don't last long enough for a syssin to do so, unless they could literally track every affliction from every ally, which is possible, but with other stronger options as well as those options being more readily available. It's just not probably or really all that great to use in group situations.

    Shifter:
    Solo: 'A' rank: With heavy limb damage and the ability to instantly upgrade limb damage should an opponent fall behind in salve curing, as well as heavy damage and bleeding damage, Shifter is a really powerful option. It is countered pretty easily though with a good parry system and good pre-restore. Recently fought Azami using shifter, she either knew my system or has used another character to gain knowledge of my fighting style and after i gained fury with her parrying a double jugular, then parried my next attack as well to her left arm 3 times in a row, for a grand total of 5 parries in 2 rounds. I lost needless to say because of that. As well as the only way to counter it would be to use pounce or never hit the same limb more than once in any round, and if you do that, would make the limb damage almost impossible to get ahead on with good curing.

    Group: 'S: rank. Even with good curing and a good parry system, a shifter's ability to quarter someone in 6 seconds flat is just amazingly powerful. Though it can be slown down and stopped by parrying, good curing and spamming shield tattoo, it would effectively still take the target out of the equation. And that's just with 2 or 3 shifters. That number would actuall y decrease to instantly with 5 shifters.

    Monk:
    Solo: Torn between 'A' rank and 'B' rank. It's got good healing options, good flexibility in that it can adapt to almost any situation. It's build-up to kill conditions is relatively slow, and is countered easily with good parrying, curing and being able to check "WOUNDS". This class is even weaker if your opponent has a higher INT stat than you do.

    Group: S rank. Simply spamming batter, and having a system that can accurately and reliably BBT at the correct times, as well as kai deliverance which can kill literally anyone instantly who hits them at the wrong time and can get it up and off is really strong. And in group situations there's no doubt it's one of the strongest options. I almost forgot to mention being able to blackout an enemy for an extended period of time. Though is pretty difficult to get a mind lock on someone in group situations. I did also forget to mention Kai Banishment, Enfeeble, and Choke. All super powerful options.

    Shaman:
    Solo: 'S' Rank. The shaman has abilities to adapt in nearly every situation a shaman finds themselves in. As well as four different kill routes, thorns, reclamation, lightning/stormtouch and omen, high curing potential with panacea. A person who can actually master the complexities of shaman class would just destroy all.

    Group: 'B' Rank. Shaman's take some buildup time, and have pretty crap damage resistance, but have pretty good utility. Can pretty easily get stormtouch on a person, but in group situations it's hard to capitalize off of. I also just feel other classes just more easily outshine it, due to their speed.

    Templar:
    Solo & Group are both 'A' Rank. Templar's have one of the strongest offenses and really not much else. I mean a few utility things and useful things here and there. But well offense is pretty important in both situations, and templar's are among the best their is in sheer speed and ability to kill. But again not much in the way of Defense aside from auras or being able to protect one other ally.

    Vampire/Prae: 'A' to 'S' rank in both. With the ability to true lock as well as annihilate. Good defense and versatility. I honestly feel that if Fezzix had this class he'd break the game.

    Carnifex:
    Solo: 'S' rank. There's a reason why there are so many who do so well. Mjoll being a great teacher in the ways of Carnifex combat. The class is just simply strong overall and really was OP for quite a while before the recent balancing of the class. It's only true weakness is you not having as much knowledge as your opponent. Mjoll and I have gone back and forth many MANY times in the sect arena. Each time we'd learn more come back and beat the other. Good fights Mjoll!

    Group: 'A' Rank. Just as viable in group situations, as in solo, but does take some time to build up.

    Wayfarer:
    Solo: 'A' rank. With both a good offense and a good defense, as well as i feel too easily achievable instant kills and good flexibility to adapt to most situations, i simply haven't fought a wayfarer yet, I couldn't counter. That said, it is still a pretty underused class and may change one day.

    Group: Have seen only once or twice, and that one person got quite a few insta kills, but not really enough info to know honestly.

    Teradrim:
    Same as Wayfarer for Solo.
    Group i''d go with 'B' rank. Their limb damage and bruising just take too long to build up, but if it does go long enough can be a strong option. Pretty easy to negate as well with good parry or shield/rebounding.

    Zealot, Ascendril, and Sentinel while i'm sure are great classes, there just aren't enough people who use them in either group or solo combat situations to really make a determination.
    Post edited by Galadriel on
    Kalinaar
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3
    I mean calling Shaman B tier for groups is the craziest thing I've ever heard. If anything Shaman needs less prep to ramp up damage and is tanker than a lot of the other options. The real weakness is the lack of much finesse in aff choice. But most of the things Shaman doesn't do well are things most other classes can easily make up for. Brute damage and random aff piling along with room control and a pretty versatile toolkit(leafstorm/strangle/effusion) make it pretty undisputed. It can feel a bit less dynamic than other classes getting locks and doing instas in groups but that's the tradeoff




    StineChurch
  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 40
    Not everyone has your level of arties @aishia, Shaman's also have a lot of class specific afflictions, stormtouched, infest, blighted, spiritbane, just to name a few, need 4 mental affs to reclaim and 12 seconds to do so if opponent is over 50% health 6 if under, which in group situations, people under 50% health won't last either of those times. Sure stormtouched "can" with the right arties do a massive amount of damage but can only synergize with illumination lightning.
  • StineStine Member, Bot Posts: 101 ✭✭✭
    @Galadriel I'm not going anywhere near your viewpoints on specific classes, but I think there's a problem with your view if you're thinking purely in terms of damage or kill methods in a group setting. Off the top of my head, using Shaman as an example, they provide or have:

    1) AB NATURALISM PULLING - unstoppable (except by icewall) pull
    2) AB NATURALISM SCREEN - messes with Telepathy
    3) AB NATURALISM HINDER - room wide movement hinder
    4) AB NATURALISM CANOPY - makes a room indoors to stop certain ranged attacks
    5) AB NATURALISM ROOTS - can't be moved, leaving 1 less target to be pulled from room
    6) AB NATURALISM THORNCOAT - not often used, but 50% dmg reflect against physical sources for 10 seconds is pretty crazy.
    Fezzix
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    Galadriel said:

    [snipped]

    this is a prime example of why opinion polls should be taken with a grain (or a whole bag?) of salt
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 40
    @stine as I said. Good utility, but utility is useless if you and your whole team is dead cause you can't kill them.
    Kalinaar
  • StineStine Member, Bot Posts: 101 ✭✭✭
    It would appear we differ in our group ranking methodology, then. I prefer to consider the whole breadth of skills available to a class, not just narrow it how quickly it can kill someone on its own.
    Fezzix
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Artis aside the armor penetration on vinelash alone makes ANYONE helpful. I barely consider lightning as a base group strat or ANY of the mechanics you mentioned really. Stormtouched is just an opportunity you take IF it comes up




  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 40
    i think you guys are confusing usefulness, and helpfulness with viability in combat.
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere! Member Posts: 660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's certainly some fascinating opinions on the subject.
    (Leaders): Tiur says, "I'll remember not to delete you when the time comes, Bene. Good people."


    IllidanOonaghAloliVyxsis
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm skeptical of the Luminary limb route with a brief glance over what's available to them. Where they were stupidly obnoxious before (not really deadly for optimal curing but stupid obnoxious all the same), now... I dunno. I'd have to seriously look at it again and play around with the limb route. The Luminary affliction route, however, is strong and solid. I like that soulburn/soulfire has given Luminary some options for securing gaps and unlucky asthma randomcure ticks but it's absolutely not necessary to use. The class's shortcomings really only come from mobility and some minor quality of life issues with resources in my opinion. If the limb route is indeed viable then Luminary belongs in S tier for sure. If not then a strong A, maybe A+ because while their affliction route is a healthy strong, I think like the Indorani and Syssin, you can see the kill route from miles away. Far too many opponents can gate the mid-game aff burst too reliably in my opinion. Before the limb nerfs, a Luminary could seamlessly transition between kill strategies and that unpredictability in route changes put them in S tier. Now? Ehh... I think solo S tier is definitely debatable until someone can definitively work out whether the Luminary limb option is viable. I don't believe enough testing has been done for that.

    My solo list would probably look like:

    S Tier: Archivist (But only because it's still largely an unknown for a lot of people I think.), Syssin, Shaman, Monk

    A Tier: Luminary, Templar (admittedly, I think they could be S but I haven't looked at all their changes yet and feel safer putting them here), Zealot, Teradrim (I think they belong in S but some changes occurred I'm told so will need to look at them again, sadly my alt got purged), Indorani, (I have a feeling Archivist is really down here but still too new/unknown to really say), and Sentinel

    B Tier: Carnifex, Wayfarer, Raven Shifter (might actually be A, need to test more), and Mages

    C Tier: Shifter

    Unknown Tier: Praenomen - I haven't look at them in years so I've no idea.

    It's difficult for me to say how classes rank in team settings properly because I think group combat in Aetolia is fundamentally broken in an unhealthy way. Almost by design (or lack thereof) it's impossible to really balance and make healthy. The best you can do is make it bearable so as not to piss off or frustrate too many people so that there's a healthy engagement level. What I can say though is that the Light side by far has more synergy than the Shadow side. And by all rights should be superior to the Shadow Side 70% if not 90% of the time. Unfortunately for the Light side, participation and combat competency has been a significant challenge for them to tackle and overcome. Not to say that there aren't any competent people there, just not enough healthy doses of them to fully capitalize on just how strong their side really is. There are a wide variety of reasons for this but that's a different can of worms. Then again... I tend to think a little differently than a lot of people so take what I say with a grant of salt. Like how I look at tiers is that S means that you're in your own class above all the rest and should probably be looked at or monitored closely for tweaks depending on game wide impact. The A means you're healthy and in a good spot. Reliable and strong. B means you're okay but could use a little help to get you into the A category. C Tier means you're either underutilized or you've fallen so far behind that you're a joke pick in a fight without some serious restructuring. Definitely need some love.

    Anyway. That's my two cents.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Aloli
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3
    @Galadriel

    Luminaries have passive hidden blurry vision, lethargy, confusion, weariness, berserking, pacifism, and peace (the affliction).

    What exactly constitutes as having strong hinder if not that? Inquiring minds (read: the entire game) want to know. 
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    IazamatIesidVyxsisFezzix
  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 40
    @Emir blurry vision is random and can't be applied to a target with certainty. lethargy and confusion delay attacks by what a whole .2 seconds? That't technically a hinder sure... but not really much of one. Weariness isn't a hinder it just reduces damage done to you, not all forms either, and is also a mental aff that can be focused away. pacifism will get cured as soon as you take another shot automatically and peace just got a nerf liasion round before last. Berserking, yea that's a decent hinder, but still doesn't compare to oh say, broken limbs? Aeon? paralysis, which you didn't even mention, that they do have, paresis isn't a very good hinder either. The ability to impale? When i think hinder i think actually unable to attack, not slown down .2 seconds, clumsiness instead of blurry vision would make more sense. At least it's a pill cure that a luminary can actually capitalize on. To stack all of the whole 3 salve afflictions a luminary has at their disposal you have to hit them with all of them as a hidden affliction and hope they don't diagnose.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow




    IesidEmirVyxsis
  • MjollMjoll Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    edited May 3
    .2 seconds is the difference between Carnifex stacking affs and not. Why do you think I learned how to limb fight? I ****HATE**** limb combat, my love is, has been and always will be afflictions, but it just doesn't work against Luminary (and a couple other classes, sort of) between blurry_vision procs before getting diagnosed/cured, lethargy and all that damn affliction curing.

    Edit: Just to point this out, Galadriel, the hinder you're looking for is in the shifter class, and I have a MUCH easier time over that. See our 1-10 minute shifter v carnifex fights against our 30-75 minute luminary v carnifex fights.
    HavenVyxsisFezzix
  • ZarniZarni Member Posts: 16 ✭✭✭
    @Galadriel So uh. Just pointing out, if you had taken literally five seconds to do AFFLICT LETHARGY or CONFUSION instead of going off on whatever...thing you're doing, you'd see it's .4s, which comes out to 1 extra pill balance for them per 10s, which is huge. Also let's not pretend that you're realistically going to be getting many uses of focus versus Luminary unless you're just dead set on letting asthma get buried and getting locked like a chump. This also means that Also berserking is the largest single balance knock I can think of off the top of my head, on top of it breaking shield. Also pacifism has a 1.5s delay before being cured by aggressive action.
    GaladrielVyxsis
  • SilenaSilena Member, Immortal Posts: 129 Immortal
    Don't make this personal. Stick to discussing the mechanics.
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