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Class Viability
Keroc
A small cupboardAdministrator, Immortal
Hey guys,
Long time ago, when we had liaisons, I had them fill out a form for me to gather information on classes that were considered weak or strong. I used this information to make a lot of changes to classes that were in need.
As such, I have prepared a new form and I'd like it very much if you guys would answer it. It won't be the final word for discussions about who needs what, but it'll definitely have some influence in my decisions going forward.
You can find the form here.
You will need to sign into a Google account in order to answer it just so I don't end up with multiple submissions from one person. You will remain anonymous however.
If you want to add anything else for discussion purposes, feel free to post on this forum thread!
Thanks!
Long time ago, when we had liaisons, I had them fill out a form for me to gather information on classes that were considered weak or strong. I used this information to make a lot of changes to classes that were in need.
As such, I have prepared a new form and I'd like it very much if you guys would answer it. It won't be the final word for discussions about who needs what, but it'll definitely have some influence in my decisions going forward.
You will need to sign into a Google account in order to answer it just so I don't end up with multiple submissions from one person. You will remain anonymous however.
If you want to add anything else for discussion purposes, feel free to post on this forum thread!
Thanks!
7
Comments
I'll likely average up the scores and throw it up here once I close the form.
SOLO TIER:
S Tier:
Archivist = 1 x 15, 2 x 6, 3 x 1, (2) = 1.36
Shaman = 1 x 15, 2 x 8, 3 x 1, (0) = 1.42
Syssin = 1 x 15, 2 x 8, 3 x 1, (0) = 1.42
Templar = 1 x 15, 2 x 7, 3 x 2, (0) = 1.46
A Tier:
Luminary = 1 x 11, 2 x 10, 3 x 2, (1) = 1.61
Monk = 1 x 9, 2 x 11, 3 x 3, 4 x 1, (0) = 1.83
Sentinel = 1 x 7, 2 x 9, 3 x 2, 4 x 1, (5) = 1.84
Indorani = 1 x 7, 2 x 11, 3 x 3, 4 x 1, (2) = 1.91
B Tier:
Teradrim = 1 x 5, 2 x 9, 3 x 4, 4 x 2, (4) = 2.15
Wayfarer = 1 x 5, 2 x 6, 3 x 9, 4 x 1, (3) = 2.29
Carnifex = 1 x 6, 2 x 11, 3 x 2, 5 x 4, (1) = 2.35
Shapeshifter = 1 x 3, 2 x 9, 3 x 7, 4 x 2, 5 x 2, (1) = 2.61
C Tier:
Praenomen = 1 x 1, 2 x 5, 3 x 8, 4 x 4, 5 x 3, (3) = 3.14
Ascendril = 1 x 1, 2 x 3, 3 x 10, 4 x 5, 5 x 2, (3) = 3.19
Sciomancer = 1 x 1, 2 x 4, 3 x 7, 4 x 6, 5 x 3, (3) = 3.29
Zealot = 1 x 1, 2 x 3, 3 x 5, 4 x 4, 5 x 3, (8) = 3.31
TEAM TIER:
S Tier
Shaman = 1 x 20, 2 x 4, (0) = 1.17
Luminary = 1 x 19, 2 x 4, 3 x 1, (0) = 1.25
Monk = 1 x 18, 2 x 5, 3 x 1, (0) = 1.29
A Tier:
Templar = 1 x 14, 2 x 8, 3 x 2, (0) = 1.5
Teradrim = 1 x 12, 2 x 7, 3 x 2, (3) = 1.52
Sentinel = 1 x 12, 2 x 8, 3 x 3, 4 x 1, (0) = 1.71
Ascendril = 1 x 10, 2 x 7, 3 x 4, 4 x 1, (2) = 1.82
Sciomancer = 1 x 10, 2 x 6, 3 x 5, 4 x 1, (2) = 1.86
Indorani = 1 x 9, 2 x 6, 3 x 6, 4 x 1, (2) = 1.95
B Tier:
Archivist = 1 x 10, 2 x 6, 3 x 3, 4 x 2, 5 x 1, (2) = 2
Shapeshifter = 1 x 8, 2 x 7, 3 x 7, 4 x 1, (1) = 2.04
Carnifex = 1 x 7, 2 x 11, 3 x 3, 4 x 1, 5 x 1, (1) = 2.04
Syssin = 1 x 5, 2 x 6, 3 x 8, 4 x 3, 5 x 1, (1) = 2.52
Praenomen = 1 x 3, 2 x 11, 3 x 5, 4 x 1, 5 x 3, (1) = 2.57
Wayfarer = 1 x 3, 2 x 6, 3 x 9, 4 x 3, (3) = 2.57
C Tier:
Zealot = 1 x 1, 2 x 4, 3 x 3, 4 x 1, 5 x 7, (8) = 3.56
Here are my take-away thoughts from this.
TOP AND BOTTOM DOGS:
Archivist ended up being top dog for solo combat, which doesn't surprise me. They can snag sudden and quick kills, even back in testing when they required 3 phys/mental to unravel. I kind of felt they were strong on release, but a lot of players did not agree. So I gave them buffs and here we are.
Shaman beat Luminary in team combat, which is kind of surprising. I was convinced Luminary would be at the top, but I guess we all underestimated just how useful overgrowth and high damage can be.
Zealot sits at the bottom of both solo and team combat, however they also had the most 'unsure' responses of the lot -
In solo combat I think they're pretty decent, a lot of their kit continues to go unexplored by the masses and the few that do probably need to think it over a bit more. Specifically I notice that ablaze stacks aren't tracked well, muscle spasms affliction isn't really spoken about (its strong vs restoration), and both Dwindle and Pendulum are unseen. Zenith is admittedly a little awkward to use, and could be a bit better implemented. Overall the reaction to it as a class reminds me a lot of Archivists in the early days.
Quick pro tip: When you see 'Deadly flames' on the ablaze tick, you can use Immolate on them. I quite often see that message 3-4 times before someone Immolates when reviewing logs.
In teams they are probably not that great, I did design to be more of a duelist class as Spirit already had a ton of group power. I wouldn't mind giving them a little bit extra here and there though, or perhaps just spreading out the utility across the tether a bit more.
INTERESTING POINTS:
Praenomen are lower then I'd expect in solo combat. This is likely because of the negative notion of blood mechanics and/or being able to bash a minion. I do personally think they're incredibly strong and can easily close a kill if they are not heavily cheesed.
Wayfarer is probably a bit lower then I'd have thought. Their ability to cure afflictions is not that great, so I can understand why. Offensively they seem pretty amazing.
Carnifex (solo), Praenomen (team), and Zealot (team) were the only votes that don't really fit a bell curve and had large outliers.
There were 10 voters from Shadow, 11 from Spirit, and 3 from Both.
I'm also surprised it's only B tier in group!! I thought it would be A for sure!
tbh, my impression is that this mostly shows that groupthink is the real strongest class, as it almost always is. i'll be curious to see exactly how this impacts things going forward.
Solo: strong vs people who don't have 8k+ health and mana, weak vs those that do. Luminary relies on either outright damage with overwhelm or the bleeding plus heavy aff pressure to drop an opponents mana below 45% in order to absolve. Those that cure well and have enough health to tank a few overwhelms, will simply cure out after a few overwhelms, because overwhelm does not give an affliction and has a high balance cost. The limb route you straight said isn't and will not be viable, and while peace was mildly useful before the nerf, a luminary since the nerf to peace no longer has a strong hinder route. This is compounded by the fact that crash, not only cannot be used in combination with chasten, but the fact that crash does not give an affliction needed to be cured by pills, tree, focus, renew or really anything but regular balance with any way to capitalize off of it, because anyone with disruption will simply cure confusion and concentrate to get rid of it. This is my experience with it, which leads to my opinion of, simply cure well and have enough health and mana and you'll counter a luminary every time. My rank would concur with Kerocs as an A rank.
Group: This is pretty complex as really all classes on both sides rely on everyone in the group coming to a consensus on what route to go. And when my group decides to go limb route, I find Shifter to be a much stronger option, especially with skills like quarter. That being said, if a luminary manages to use smash or even shield crush with a tower shield during a class fight, there is no doubt in my mind, that they can do stupid amounts of limb damage. And with the ability to cause massive damage on a prone/fallen opponent with that much limb damage, as well as blackout and bleeding, and instantly kill with absolve should they clot too much. It can be one of the strongest options. It would required a large amount of knowledge, time and skill in coding to be optimal but once you have it, would be definitely stronger than my solo rating. So i'd rate it as the 'S' rank.
Sciomancer:
Solo: Not really enough people using it in sect. So really hard to say. I will say their options are pretty strong, as Emir fought me a handful of times, and beat me with it. Even as a luminary, vs a class that uses mana quite a bit. But he and Mazzion were the only ones I've ever fought with it. I have managed to beat both of them in the class. But honestly Mazzion in that class, may or may not be capable of doing more than dropping a 6-12 holobombs and just straight damage kill you and tank through it himself. If he can do more. I've never seen him do it. So my perspective on the class is just incomplete. That being said the fact both of them have just straight damage killed me that way, in my opinion also makes it stronger than Keroc has rated it. I give it at least the 'A' rank.
Group: Nearly impossible to use anything useful in terms of vibes or affliction kills. So overall a weak class, that being said Mazzion and Emir's ability to drop 15 singularities and wipe out entire groups of people during lessers and majors if they don't respond fast enough from the air, is pretty friggin OP. I put this in the Group section even though it technically only requires one solo person to do this to a group and is dangerous to their own group as well if done while the two are fighting. Which is the only reason i don't grant the 'S' rank. I rank it again as the 'A' rank.
Archivist: S rank. With the sheer versatility, heavy affliction pressure, and an insta-kill thats pretty easy to get off in either group or Solo situations I give Archivist 'S' rank in both.
Indorani:
Solo: 'S' rank. With all the hinder, and aff pressure from tarot+dominated minions, as well as the ability to give aeon, which slows every action whether attacking, or curing by 1.5 seconds would alone make this one of the strongest classes. Add that to the fact that it's nearly impossible to hinder them pushes Indorani over the top and makes this class hands down one of the best in game. Clumsiness, blurry vision, a single broken arm and/or leg doesn't slow them down at all. And they can heal heavy affliction pressure as well with a class skill. Put all this together with the ability to delay the effects of disfigurement and face maul with the charisma artifact and negate orb sigils and luminary banishment with domination collars, makes this class unstoppable.
Group: 'B' rank. As most group combat situations are either based on damage killing or limb damage, Indorani doesn't have strong options to either. They 'can' disrupt pretty well and have decent crowd control, as well as pulling capability which makes them useful in a sense, but that's about as far as it goes.
Syssin:
Solo: 'S' rank: Fezzix is a monster with this class. I use him as an example because he's the most capable person with it, and has shown me that in the most capable hands it's nearly impossible to stop. Though I feel i've gotten close to beating him in a class that he considers it's counter, i've never actually done it. That speaks enough to me about how strong it is in the right hands.
Group: 'B' rank: As most syssin kills rely on stacking afflictions on a person to kill them, most group situations just don't last long enough for a syssin to do so, unless they could literally track every affliction from every ally, which is possible, but with other stronger options as well as those options being more readily available. It's just not probably or really all that great to use in group situations.
Shifter:
Solo: 'A' rank: With heavy limb damage and the ability to instantly upgrade limb damage should an opponent fall behind in salve curing, as well as heavy damage and bleeding damage, Shifter is a really powerful option. It is countered pretty easily though with a good parry system and good pre-restore. Recently fought Azami using shifter, she either knew my system or has used another character to gain knowledge of my fighting style and after i gained fury with her parrying a double jugular, then parried my next attack as well to her left arm 3 times in a row, for a grand total of 5 parries in 2 rounds. I lost needless to say because of that. As well as the only way to counter it would be to use pounce or never hit the same limb more than once in any round, and if you do that, would make the limb damage almost impossible to get ahead on with good curing.
Group: 'S: rank. Even with good curing and a good parry system, a shifter's ability to quarter someone in 6 seconds flat is just amazingly powerful. Though it can be slown down and stopped by parrying, good curing and spamming shield tattoo, it would effectively still take the target out of the equation. And that's just with 2 or 3 shifters. That number would actuall y decrease to instantly with 5 shifters.
Monk:
Solo: Torn between 'A' rank and 'B' rank. It's got good healing options, good flexibility in that it can adapt to almost any situation. It's build-up to kill conditions is relatively slow, and is countered easily with good parrying, curing and being able to check "WOUNDS". This class is even weaker if your opponent has a higher INT stat than you do.
Group: S rank. Simply spamming batter, and having a system that can accurately and reliably BBT at the correct times, as well as kai deliverance which can kill literally anyone instantly who hits them at the wrong time and can get it up and off is really strong. And in group situations there's no doubt it's one of the strongest options. I almost forgot to mention being able to blackout an enemy for an extended period of time. Though is pretty difficult to get a mind lock on someone in group situations. I did also forget to mention Kai Banishment, Enfeeble, and Choke. All super powerful options.
Shaman:
Solo: 'S' Rank. The shaman has abilities to adapt in nearly every situation a shaman finds themselves in. As well as four different kill routes, thorns, reclamation, lightning/stormtouch and omen, high curing potential with panacea. A person who can actually master the complexities of shaman class would just destroy all.
Group: 'B' Rank. Shaman's take some buildup time, and have pretty crap damage resistance, but have pretty good utility. Can pretty easily get stormtouch on a person, but in group situations it's hard to capitalize off of. I also just feel other classes just more easily outshine it, due to their speed.
Templar:
Solo & Group are both 'A' Rank. Templar's have one of the strongest offenses and really not much else. I mean a few utility things and useful things here and there. But well offense is pretty important in both situations, and templar's are among the best their is in sheer speed and ability to kill. But again not much in the way of Defense aside from auras or being able to protect one other ally.
Vampire/Prae: 'A' to 'S' rank in both. With the ability to true lock as well as annihilate. Good defense and versatility. I honestly feel that if Fezzix had this class he'd break the game.
Carnifex:
Solo: 'S' rank. There's a reason why there are so many who do so well. Mjoll being a great teacher in the ways of Carnifex combat. The class is just simply strong overall and really was OP for quite a while before the recent balancing of the class. It's only true weakness is you not having as much knowledge as your opponent. Mjoll and I have gone back and forth many MANY times in the sect arena. Each time we'd learn more come back and beat the other. Good fights Mjoll!
Group: 'A' Rank. Just as viable in group situations, as in solo, but does take some time to build up.
Wayfarer:
Solo: 'A' rank. With both a good offense and a good defense, as well as i feel too easily achievable instant kills and good flexibility to adapt to most situations, i simply haven't fought a wayfarer yet, I couldn't counter. That said, it is still a pretty underused class and may change one day.
Group: Have seen only once or twice, and that one person got quite a few insta kills, but not really enough info to know honestly.
Teradrim:
Same as Wayfarer for Solo.
Group i''d go with 'B' rank. Their limb damage and bruising just take too long to build up, but if it does go long enough can be a strong option. Pretty easy to negate as well with good parry or shield/rebounding.
Zealot, Ascendril, and Sentinel while i'm sure are great classes, there just aren't enough people who use them in either group or solo combat situations to really make a determination.
1) AB NATURALISM PULLING - unstoppable (except by icewall) pull
2) AB NATURALISM SCREEN - messes with Telepathy
3) AB NATURALISM HINDER - room wide movement hinder
4) AB NATURALISM CANOPY - makes a room indoors to stop certain ranged attacks
5) AB NATURALISM ROOTS - can't be moved, leaving 1 less target to be pulled from room
6) AB NATURALISM THORNCOAT - not often used, but 50% dmg reflect against physical sources for 10 seconds is pretty crazy.
My solo list would probably look like:
S Tier: Archivist (But only because it's still largely an unknown for a lot of people I think.), Syssin, Shaman, Monk
A Tier: Luminary, Templar (admittedly, I think they could be S but I haven't looked at all their changes yet and feel safer putting them here), Zealot, Teradrim (I think they belong in S but some changes occurred I'm told so will need to look at them again, sadly my alt got purged), Indorani, (I have a feeling Archivist is really down here but still too new/unknown to really say), and Sentinel
B Tier: Carnifex, Wayfarer, Raven Shifter (might actually be A, need to test more), and Mages
C Tier: Shifter
Unknown Tier: Praenomen - I haven't look at them in years so I've no idea.
It's difficult for me to say how classes rank in team settings properly because I think group combat in Aetolia is fundamentally broken in an unhealthy way. Almost by design (or lack thereof) it's impossible to really balance and make healthy. The best you can do is make it bearable so as not to piss off or frustrate too many people so that there's a healthy engagement level. What I can say though is that the Light side by far has more synergy than the Shadow side. And by all rights should be superior to the Shadow Side 70% if not 90% of the time. Unfortunately for the Light side, participation and combat competency has been a significant challenge for them to tackle and overcome. Not to say that there aren't any competent people there, just not enough healthy doses of them to fully capitalize on just how strong their side really is. There are a wide variety of reasons for this but that's a different can of worms. Then again... I tend to think a little differently than a lot of people so take what I say with a grant of salt. Like how I look at tiers is that S means that you're in your own class above all the rest and should probably be looked at or monitored closely for tweaks depending on game wide impact. The A means you're healthy and in a good spot. Reliable and strong. B means you're okay but could use a little help to get you into the A category. C Tier means you're either underutilized or you've fallen so far behind that you're a joke pick in a fight without some serious restructuring. Definitely need some love.
Anyway. That's my two cents.
Luminaries have passive hidden blurry vision, lethargy, confusion, weariness, berserking, pacifism, and peace (the affliction).
What exactly constitutes as having strong hinder if not that? Inquiring minds (read: the entire game) want to know.
Edit: Just to point this out, Galadriel, the hinder you're looking for is in the shifter class, and I have a MUCH easier time over that. See our 1-10 minute shifter v carnifex fights against our 30-75 minute luminary v carnifex fights.
Peace the ability was nerfed, peace the affliction was not nerfed. Peace the affliction neuters classes that rely on enemy lists.
.2s is a massive difference in affliction rate. Ask literally any fighter worth a damn. Ask Fezzix! Go on, ask him.
Pacifism still halts the offense in between attacks or until we cure it. That's what, 2+ solid seconds of not hitting you if we're on bal? That's massive.
And blurry vision is trackable by you, hidden to us. If we apply randomly then we're forcing ourself to eat for blindness if we guess wrong, or eat a transfix. If we diagnose then we lose .75s every fucking time shadow hits. If we wait to find it then we lose an entire round of affs when it procs.
Good God. This makes ever losing to you even worse, you don't understand a single thing about combat. I have to retire now out of shame.
EDIT: Alright. @Galadriel, I have fought you while you were in multiple classes. Your curing style does not change between those classes. When you are in anything BUT luminary, you dissolve. There are several reasons for that, all of which have been listed, but I'll repeat them:
1) Lethargy. The people above are correct, and I hope you take my word for it. Syssin in particular has a tiny kill window, and the additional 0.4 seconds PER ATTACK is a massive penalty. It's cripplingly bad, enough to where you will likely outpace my affliction speed with cures, especially if you consider regular occurrences like dodging and having to flay rebounding.
2) Hidden Blurry Vision. No, you can't give it directly, but you do give it quite often. What's worse is it's hidden, so I will not cure it until after I've already suffered a penalty from it.
3) Pacifism. Pacifism is low on the cure prio list for anyone with half a brain, because curing it constantly leads to death. This means that you will shut me down for the rest of my round until I get hit again. In many cases, it leads to a fight reset.
4) Healing Rite. Undisputed best passive heal in the game, on par with Archivist's Ameliorate. Not stopped by full paralysis like Tranquility or Cleansing Aura. Unlike Archivist, however, you have all of the other hinder capabilities as stated above. You also have an actual active cure, unlike Archivist.
The real kicker here is that ALL of the abilities listed above ARE PART OF YOUR NATURAL KILL ROUTE. You do not have to go out of your way and hinder your own offense to shut down your enemy like other classes do.
And if all else fails, you can transfix. You cannot with any intellectual honesty deny that the built-in hinder from luminary far outshines any other class.
Offensively, you have Piety, Loneliness, Berserking, Sear, Shadow/Shine having a 40% chance to buffer impatience or asthma, and two ways to get to Hellsight. Neither you nor any other luminary combatant right now has the class optimized, but once it gets there, you'll likely never lose.
EDIT EDIT: I have fought all the classes many times, and some are harder to lock than others. Luminary is the most difficult by an extremely wide margin. The next one down is Templar, but it still doesn't come anywhere close.