Announce post #2922: Choke Gauntlet

Autoposter

<pre>1/28/2019 at 16:56
Tiur, the Gnosis
Everyone
Choke Gauntlet

The artifact gauntlet with power "choke" is a problem. We've debated back and forth about things we could do to fix it, and decided that anything we do would amount to nerfing a 1500cr artifact away from its value. That would just cause buyer's remorse, so my current intent is to delete them all and do a full bound credit refund.

Some of you might have bought them recently from the artifact cart, if so, contact me and we'll work something out as bound credits would be a bit lame. Other recent purchases can contact me if they have other concerns as well.

I've put a timer of a week before I do this. The forum thread attached to this post can serve as a place for alternate idea discussion.

Penned by my hand on Falsday, the 16th of Midsummer, in the year 478 MA.</pre>

Axius

Heya! I agree with this, but would be willing to support alternative ideas in turn. Also, for those who are like me and needed to actually look it up to know what this gauntlet in particular was, or maybe didn't hear the uh.. relentless grumping about it. Here we go!

Artifact #408
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Item: a menacing black gauntlet
Power: choke

This artifact power cannot be added to other items.

Description:
Allows you to KAI CHOKE to use the AB KAIDO CHOKE ability outside of the Monk class, and
without any Kai requirement.
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and to reduce the amount of digging to find the ability scroll

Choke (Kaido) Known: No (1081 lessons required)
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Syntax: KAI CHOKE
Cost: 10 kai energy

By manipulating the Kai energy that flows around us all, you are able to choke the life out of
anyone in your local area.
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Toz

I think this is a good change on the have vs have not side of things, buying ranged options vs not having them was huge.

I do think that group PK needs a lot of tuning up, as stuff has been traditionally nerfed down (esp. range)- group combat is a dps slogfest nowadays, with there not being much difference between a "good" group pker and a "bad"- for most classes, once you get past 4 or so per side, bashing attacks are king. Ranged lets you even the odds, if you're outnumbered, and empowering some classes to hit at range vs an entrenched enemy other than simple LoS/adjacent attacks is needed- look what a few of us could do with this glove. I just think it needs to be baked into skillsets, not sold.

Benedicto

Toz said:

I think this is a good change on the have vs have not side of things, buying ranged options vs not having them was huge.

I do think that group PK needs a lot of tuning up, as stuff has been traditionally nerfed down (esp. range)- group combat is a dps slogfest nowadays, with there not being much difference between a "good" group pker and a "bad"- for most classes, once you get past 4 or so per side, bashing attacks are king. Ranged lets you even the odds, if you're outnumbered, and empowering some classes to hit at range vs an entrenched enemy other than simple LoS/adjacent attacks is needed- look what a few of us could do with this glove. I just think it needs to be baked into skillsets, not sold.

I agree with this. The problem with kai choke is there was no real counter-play. You needed breathing or you were done. For many lower level players who were trying to get involved in group, they might have tri-trans their guild skills, but breathing - being placed where it was in survival - was still outside of the range of most lower/mid level combatants.

I'm all for additional options that promote/encourage sensible tactical play and require an element of finesse. Not skills that can be abused to wipe out half a group from the other side of an area with no planning/skill/preparation.

Toz

I'd like to see more stuff with a wind-up or pre-reqs, like deliverance or cata. Things you can build a comp around, or even quarter which is just a shifter-only beatdown. These things are frustrating to fight against because there are so few, I think, not because of their design. If you had a 3 man Shaman circle to counter cata, if Wayfarer could throw everyone to a different room in the area, etc. The skills that are so frustratingly "good" would be just good, not frustrating.

Stathan

MAGA! Make Archery Great Again!

(don't hit me, I had to)

Aloli

My opinion on this might not be a popular one but I feel combat artifacts (ranged or close quartered) should not steal from or mimic class skills and should be unique stand-alone ideas that would support or hinder class skills.

If someone -really- wanted certain skills, I think they should simply have and play in that class and with the ability to multiclass now, this should be more enforced this way.

Still, something to note if this is going to be the route that artifacts keep going down, there is a disparity between certain classes skills and their availability in artifacts and rare relics as they are not balanced across the board of all the classes. Meaning, if you would take the best skills of one class and make them available for moneybags then have it across all classes or none.

For example, one of the more exciting things about mage bashing is the reflections for the newbs but we now have a reflection wand and this takes away from actually wanting to take a mage bashing and going through the effort to coordinate with them to reflect at the right time while the other hits and so on. Same would go for other classes where the best skills of their classes are turned into artifacts. I can think of Monks, Syssins, and Mages affected most by this, off the top of my head.

Tina

I think it filled a niche that is needed but missing from many of the current classes, but it used the wrong ability. No matter what class you are, with how prevalent group pk has become, you should have access to ranged attacks that are not LoS, but area based. Ideally over time those skills would be added to each class, but that could take a while to balance and add right. Till such a time, I think having an artifact that can fill this niche is very useful. Choke was probably just the wrong ability to use. Ranged combat is an important avenue for a smaller group to go up against a bigger group. Which is important for conflict as most of the time, opposing sides will not be equally balanced. Till all classes are brought up to par, instead of just deleting the choke artifact, I think a better discussion is what could it be replaced with to still give area based range attacks, but that has counters and isn't gonna just overpower the larger group, but provide tactical possibilities.

Also an idea on choke if a better ability can't be thought of, with foci being the major source of group fights. Make interference fort block choke along with telepathy. Would give a counter to everyone at the foci fights without a huge investment in survival, and more tactics. Range group would have to get adjacent to bring down fort, which would let the defenders start using adjacent and LoS abilities, etc. More dynamics.

Stine

The problem with changing choke is that the intent is not to harm Monks as is, because the problem isn't the ability in and of itself in the Monk class as that has checks and balances already baked in. 

I have to agree with @Toz and @Benedicto - having options to participate that isn't locked behind a 1500 credit paywall and further having to tactically choose which area wide or area disturbing abilities you bring to a fight can and will be a good thing.

Edit: Removed a comment that probably would have delved into unhealthy territory for the discussion as it was not my intent to do so. 

Emir

Aloli said:

 For example, one of the more exciting things about mage bashing is the reflections for the newbs but we now have a reflection wand and this takes away from actually wanting to take a mage bashing and going through the effort to coordinate with them to reflect at the right time while the other hits and so on.

The recharge rate of the wand is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy slower than actual mage reflection, and the same effect can be more or less obtained from a Luminary or a Teradrim or a Shaman with targetted shields, and they bring other utility to PvE content that mages do not.

TL;DR The wand does not detract from mages.

Aloli

Hey @Emir, thanks for explaining the mechanical hinderances of the wand, I didn't know about them but I did know about other classes having the same effect.

Aside from this example, I was making two different points with my post.