Preaching

Silena

So, the end of the semester is fast approaching(thank God), which leads me to consider various Aetolia-related... things. One such thing is the preaching system for Mhuns. Mostly this post is directed at the Enorianites and Duirani who attempted it, but curious others are welcome to offer their own opinions.

The idea is, this system or something similar to it could become a 'trait' of many non-city or non-Esterport NPCs. IE, preaching to them would allow one to exert a non-violent form of control over the NPCs opinions, leading them to give you nice things, shout your praises, or smite your enemies. It is intended to be semi-permanent, in the sense that the values raised don't reset the way quest items and NPCs generally do - but could be lowered by other factors or rivals preaching at them instead. This could open up options for future quests, or holy wars, or really just about anything that doesn't involve killing NPCs. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Questions that I have are primarily about the mechanics of it, from your perspective. Bear in mind: I don't love the mechanics. I don't hate them, but I'm not fond of repetition and there's not much strategy involved in it currently. The underlying theory of what's happening is also not very transparent (I don't think?), which I'd like to change. Also: Should it require something other than willpower? Is the drain from it too high/too low? Does the experience gained seem reasonable? Should there be a more significant consequence for 'losing?' Etc, and any other general suggestions you may have.

I'd appreciate ideas for other ways it could be used, too.

Teani

Would it be possible to add some kind of feature that allows for a "good cop/bad cop" kind of thing? Meaning non-coms could go in and prime a place for those who like bashing, saying it would be better for all parts if they just agree now or they'll get stomped by "so-and-so". If then this person comes in and bashes the area, it is more likely to turn the NPCs to whatever they were primed for next time?

I don't know. I just thought that would be kind of hilarious.

Perhaps have such preaching affect the flow of commodities. Not make them stop selling to other people, but allow a small surplus to become available?

Having this as a way for non-coms to contribute in future conflicts sounds like a good thing, so long as it's not something that becomes too tedious. I think the last thing people want is to log on only to perform chores. Most of us have RL work to deal with as it is. <.<

Silena

Teani said:

Would it be possible to add some kind of feature that allows for a "good cop/bad cop" kind of thing? Meaning non-coms could go in and prime a place for those who like bashing, saying it would be better for all parts if they just agree now or they'll get stomped by "so-and-so". If then this person comes in and bashes the area, it is more likely to turn the NPCs to whatever they were primed for next time?

I don't know. I just thought that would be kind of hilarious.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by priming the NPCs. Making them more favorable to the ones priming them, or making them stronger or weaker?

Teani said:

Perhaps have such preaching affect the flow of commodities. Not make them stop selling to other people, but allow a small surplus to become available?

I like that idea!

Teani said:

Having this as a way for non-coms to contribute in future conflicts sounds like a good thing, so long as it's not something that becomes too tedious. I think the last thing people want is to log on only to perform chores. Most of us have RL work to deal with as it is. <.<</p>

Yeah, definitely. I don't want it to be something you have to do for a long period of time, or that those who only do it a small amount would have no effect.

Teani

Silena said:

Teani said:

Would it be possible to add some kind of feature that allows for a "good cop/bad cop" kind of thing? Meaning non-coms could go in and prime a place for those who like bashing, saying it would be better for all parts if they just agree now or they'll get stomped by "so-and-so". If then this person comes in and bashes the area, it is more likely to turn the NPCs to whatever they were primed for next time?

I don't know. I just thought that would be kind of hilarious.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by priming the NPCs. Making them more favorable to the ones priming them, or making them stronger or weaker?

What I mean is essentially this:
If people in a village are heavily favoring Enorian, Teani could go there and preach with an underlying threat. "Shadows are awesome, you'll love them. Also, if you don't listen, I'll sick Emir on you to demonstrate."
(Or for Enorian, they could say "Shadows are bad! If you do not turn from that path, we will have to send to put down a potential threat.")

Adding the threat would only work if the NPC is already extremely loyal to the other side, meaning maximum benefits for them. It has a small chance to turn the NPC like normal, but if they resist, they would be opened for realizing the threat for a short period of time. In that window, Emir can show up to the village and bash, swaying their loyalties for when they respawn.

If Emir kills indiscriminately, some will turn against Spinesreach because they were already turning away from Enorian and still got killed, while others will turn less loyal to Enorian because the threat became reality. On the other hand, if he kills only those who were "primed", meaning they are wavering, he will likely turn more people away from Enorian than against Spinesreach.

Eliadon

Mm, it kinda was interesting before people figured out the puzzle of 'preach to this npc with this pattern', and I primarily stopped because that just turned into a 'grind for ' activity best optimized by a script. Others probably had more fun figuring out what they needed to preach.

Ayanala

I think it would be interesting to see preaching used in conjunction with the new war system. For instance, the more NPCs that are successfully preached to will significantly increase the amount of assistance via troops that are given.

Silena

Teani said:

What I mean is essentially this:
If people in a village are heavily favoring Enorian, Teani could go there and preach with an underlying threat. "Shadows are awesome, you'll love them. Also, if you don't listen, I'll sick Emir on you to demonstrate."
(Or for Enorian, they could say "Shadows are bad! If you do not turn from that path, we will have to send to put down a potential threat.")

Adding the threat would only work if the NPC is already extremely loyal to the other side, meaning maximum benefits for them. It has a small chance to turn the NPC like normal, but if they resist, they would be opened for realizing the threat for a short period of time. In that window, Emir can show up to the village and bash, swaying their loyalties for when they respawn.

If Emir kills indiscriminately, some will turn against Spinesreach because they were already turning away from Enorian and still got killed, while others will turn less loyal to Enorian because the threat became reality. On the other hand, if he kills only those who were "primed", meaning they are wavering, he will likely turn more people away from Enorian than against Spinesreach.

Hmm, ok, I'll have to think about this. Honestly, if I was going to do it, it would probably be something specific to Bloodloch.

Oonagh

I enjoyed the preaching alot, and figuring out the combos for things. I levelled to Demigod in Lusternia off of influencing, because I preferred it over bashing alot, and having the extra curative to fill your ego for that was basically the same as bashing and had an associated cost.

It was pretty fun to be hands on and see how things adapted and changed with Roleplay being involved and responses from NPC's the children were hilarious and ...I laughed my unicorns off watching people talking to them like adults and asking deep questions, and being like..."BUT THEYRE EIGHT." nevertheless it was an awesome run, and I feel like perhaps having multiple methods of preaching, or repetition becoming less effective over time might be a great way to make this more involved, having a few different combinations that need to be alternated based on mood/disposition might be helpful.

Overall though A++

Maite

I really liked the system, and would love for opportunities to do this more. I will second what Teani said, regarding resources. Especially if each village this happened with had a highly wanted commodity to unlock a surplus of.

It was great for those not wanting to combat to participate. I know it was a little grindy, but it was not a grinding that I minded. Finding out the right patterns is fun, and with 5 options, you have a lot of possibilities that could be implemented with various personality types.

I do think a higher goal for conversion is something to implement. Overall, I have liked the response of people grouping up and working on all this together. I think it was a good thing for Enorian.

Willpower was a high drain, yes. Which was fine for the current situation. I think if there are going to be more options and villages, etc to participate in, either a cap on the number of mobs you can preach to per howling, or less drain.

Other than that, the only suggestion I have is perhaps seeing they are loyal to Enorian/Duiran/Whatever when you probe them!

Silena

Oonagh said:

I enjoyed the preaching alot, and figuring out the combos for things. I levelled to Demigod in Lusternia off of influencing, because I preferred it over bashing alot, and having the extra curative to fill your ego for that was basically the same as bashing and had an associated cost.

It was pretty fun to be hands on and see how things adapted and changed with Roleplay being involved and responses from NPC's the children were hilarious and ...I laughed my unicorns off watching people talking to them like adults and asking deep questions, and being like..."BUT THEYRE EIGHT." nevertheless it was an awesome run, and I feel like perhaps having multiple methods of preaching, or repetition becoming less effective over time might be a great way to make this more involved, having a few different combinations that need to be alternated based on mood/disposition might be helpful.

Overall though A++

Lol, good point about the children, I'll keep it in mind.

And yeah, I'm a fan of the influencing system... or at least, the idea of it. There's parts of it I love and others I really wish worked differently. RP-wise it's great, and a reasonable alternative to bashing. (Though just for the record, I had a different system in mind for how preaching would ultimately work.)

Silena

Maite said:

I really liked the system, and would love for opportunities to do this more. I will second what Teani said, regarding resources. Especially if each village this happened with had a highly wanted commodity to unlock a surplus of.

It was great for those not wanting to combat to participate. I know it was a little grindy, but it was not a grinding that I minded. Finding out the right patterns is fun, and with 5 options, you have a lot of possibilities that could be implemented with various personality types.

I do think a higher goal for conversion is something to implement. Overall, I have liked the response of people grouping up and working on all this together. I think it was a good thing for Enorian.

Willpower was a high drain, yes. Which was fine for the current situation. I think if there are going to be more options and villages, etc to participate in, either a cap on the number of mobs you can preach to per howling, or less drain.

Thanks! I did like seeing you all work together on this. A cap or lower drain... either one is possible.

Maite said:

Other than that, the only suggestion I have is perhaps seeing they are loyal to Enorian/Duiran/Whatever when you probe them!

Hmm! Mechanically, I don't believe this is currently possible, ie, to have them act like a loyal NPC. However, if you PROBE them, they will now reveal their affiliations.

Zaila

Similar to the commodity surplus, something like how the Three Widows mob gives a 1000 gold stipend to Spireans in some villages would be fun! But instead of just giving to spireans, it'd give to whichever city had the most influence over the village


Another idea for a "preaching" endgame could villages pledging themselves as allies and giving a "thank you" donation every season to whichever city had the highest influence.

A cosmetic fun thing might be to have some focal points in the city have their decor change depending on which city had the highest influence. Like, maybe a "temple" room in a village that would switch descriptions between displays for Spirit VS Shadow gods. Or have Blue and Gold doors be popular when Eno's influence is high but switch to Spirean shades when Spines has higher influence. As if the people are painting relative to their favourites

Kelliara

If it's something that's going to be applied to many/all villages, it might need some sort of cooldown or lock when a person/village sides with one group or another.

Otherwise these places are going to look like the most indecisive groups ever because as soon as they join one group, the other is just going to go in and try and get them back.

Maybe, and I don't know if it's possible, each time a village picks a side they 'Lock'. Locked villages can't be preached, coerced, seduced, threatened, etc. When a village is locked it generates quests similar to the Liruma War ones every day, or every couple of days, and then people can do stuff like that (maybe only one quest per day per village) and once an opposing group has done a certain amount the village 'unlocks' and can be preached, coerced, threatened, etc.

Aeraisentesh

I think the system of it draining was actually spot on, I did find some of the reactions funny other were frustrating, the repetition was awful. However, factoring in the history and the full on "We don't like Keepers!" was actually very fitting. I think that locking them into one faction or whatever for say an in game season seems more befitting and gives people a chance to make use of what is being offered before it gets ripped away so to speak. So with that I do agree with @Kelliara.

This whole event has been both fun and tiring, I loved the way the eight year olds actually acted like eight year olds. Good lord I know the snark from them well, it was both laughable and making it more interesting with the interactions. So kudos to that. I would really love to see the children continue to interact and potentially have some adult Mhun that do so as well.

Overall it was well done and it was a really good team building exercise. So good job Enorian, and good job to everyone behind the scenes

Karhast

So, as someone who's been preaching an absolute ton and doing his best to see each and every Mhun in there converted, I thought I'd weigh in on the matter.

It's really, really nice to have a sense of being able to contribute, though I'm not sure that's a feeling that'll carry over well after this particular event is done. Enorian has a history of getting a raw deal during events, and one reason I've been going preaching a lot was not wanting to see that happen yet again. If that's not going to be a factor in future installments, I don't think I'd bother as much, myself.

Second.. I'm not really sure what the idea behind the five different preaching lines were. If it's variety, great! They're fun lines. Figuring out what lines fit on which Mhun was all done through trial and error, though; if there's reason to it, I don't think anyone's found how. Furthermore, the independent Mhun converting faster than typicals is a nice touch, but the way to convert priestly ones is incredibly opaque; we haven't gotten a single one, and if there even is a way.. It feels a little rude to get our hopes up like that.

If you want to tie this into something not related to events, do consider how PK will factor into things. As it stands, this event came to be after some people in Eno got worried and things kinda snowballed, upon which a lot of other orgs had their own reactions but mostly let us be. If it's something much more contentious, I expect to see the usual pattern of both sides duking it out until it becomes clear who's going to come out on top, after which there'll be a waiting game of letting it peter out. This is perfectly fine for lessers and majors, where exhaustion doesn't really become a factor, but if it's anything laster longer than that.. Yeah. Please consider the ramifications of making things worth PKing over, because it will turn into no holds barred fighting the moment that happens.

Rhyot

So I've been sitting on these thoughts while I let the idea of an influence system stew in my brain. However, I can't help but feel this system can and will get abused by a majority of people (both shadow and spirit side). Which, when it does, people won't get any benefits from influencing beyond it just being another avenue of xp gain or it'll incite a whole bunch of conflict that people really don't want to deal with due the fact that it'll become a numbers game instead of small skirmishes (ie Orrery Battles, Proxy War, Three Widows War, Tainhelm bloodhunts, etc).


Allow me to clarify. Enorian has a solid protectorate thing going for Tainhelm. Because of the influence they have over Tainhelm, they get a slight commodity bonus and stipend to their city every season or so. Someone from Shadow side comes along and starts influencing Tainhelm to renounce their ways or else be slaughtered. This forces a teeter totter motion, because Tainhelm gets slaughtered continuously until the NPCs don't feel that Enorian can offer any protection from the Shadow side, but they don't feel safe allying with Shadow side because they only get slaughtered day and night. This removes any bonuses that Enorian might get from Tainhelm without any ability to get it back because the Shadow side is constantly murdering them. In return, Spirit side would do the same thing to Shadow side "protectorates" because let's face it.... if Spirit side can't have a bonus, the Shadow side doesn't get one either. Keeping the status quo. In the end, neither side gets anything, NPCs feel a lack of empathy on either side and no one can protect them. Ultimately ending up in a system that doesn't get used because its become abused that people don't want to waste their time and effort in doing because they get nothing out of it except maybe a few hundred xp points.


That said, I find it interesting that we're trying to steal borrow modify something that Lusternia has used as a new form of PVE enlightenment and I'm not entirely against it (especially as it means more mobs for me to kill because everyone else is going to want to play Patty Cake with all the NPCs). Additionally the benefit would be a good way for people to level up without having to waste thousands of gold on curatives without any way to really get a profit back. HOWEVER, I worry that this is going to cause an imbalance of interests and negative feelings with things inevitably start leaning towards the range of conflict and large scale PVP fights that last for days on end.



Now I could be reading into this entire new system wrong. But everyone's perception is their own reality. If I am reading it wrong, I apologize. Overall though, I give the idea/system a 5/10... but only because I feel like it will eventually be abused by one side or the other... or both.

Zaila

There's no reason "Being killed by city A" would need to be programmed in as a factor for an NPC's influenced rate to drop for city B, C or D. If it were to be calculated in at all, it would make more sense to be factored as simply a negative to the influence rate of the offending city and have little-to-no impact on the defending champions.

"Those dicks kill us all the time and you guys come by to help us sometimes, thank you guys so much! The orphans from the other guys' slaughter collected donations to give you in appreciation for your efforts, whatever they may be!"

*edit to add:
If city A wants to win over an NPC from city B, it should be done within the influence system themselves, not through PK or PvE.

Toz

The definition of protectorate indicates why you should lose something for enemy forces bashing down an area, doubly so if it's couched with the threat of "join us or else".

pro·tec·tor·ate

/prəˈtekt(ə)rət/

noun

noun: protectorate; plural noun: protectorates; noun: Protectorate

1. 1.

   a state that is controlled and protected by another.
   

Teani

On a different note, without involving PK, influence like this could very easily be tied into factions. However, I think it would be nice if these were a bit fluent, with some consequences involved. Tie them to different villages and create rivalries.

---------
For example:
The people of Torston think their cloth is nicer than Salurian cloth, because kittehs know nothing about fabric. They only play with yarn balls anyway.

Now, if you go quest in Torston, you gain good standing with them, and the people in the warehouse hear of your good deeds and set aside some nice bolts of cloth for you to purchase at a discount. (Go you!)

Then you go to Saluria to quest. (Gasp! Consorting with the enemy!) That means you lose all your awesome privileges in Torston (you traitor, you!), and might even have them raise their prices for you. (for at least... at least a month, you monster! Do you want our children to starve, huh? HUH?!!).
---------

These kind of rivalries would likely require some intricate coding to work, but I think it would be nice if you could influence to gain standing, and also lose it for doing something stupid, but it wouldn't have to affect a whole lot of other people, so it wouldn't make it a mechanic that becomes a necessary workload that -has- to be done.

Emir

I love the effort to separate PK from RP

Zaila

I can't tell if that was intended to be arguing against my post @Toz - but if so: sure.

But this is a game. And we're talking about how to make a new system for non-coms to have fun while not leaving blatant gaping holes for other jerks in the game to abuse the mechanics without also making the mechanics crazy complicated unnecessarily to better simulate real life.

Emir

There is like the entire game, minus Sect, that non-coms can enjoy and have fun without other people ruining it. I'm not being sarcastic or facetious or whatever word goes here, either, I'm being 100% honest and completely mind blown about that statement @Zaila .

The game is already /heavily/ skewed for non-com. There are completely safe rooms that people /cannot/ get to, raiding has been changed to heavily discourage the act, PK is almost 100% opt in, there is a config that makes it literally impossible for you to hit someone else in a situation that would give them cause on you later, even on accident. There is no war system, there is no reason to back up your talk, there is no necessity to contest lessers, or majors, Orrery is hardly necessary either, etc.

Making a system with any type of conflict at all that alienates PKers is a giant middle finger to all of us for no reason at all, and I greatly take offense to that.

Toz

I agree this is a game and I would also like to play, please.

Any time a conflict system gets unveiled (WAR), there has to be a list of chores/things for non-comms to do, to help out. There are quests, there are no pk zones, there's aura and all sorts of special rules crafted so that the crafters, the emoters, the explorers, the bashers, etc. all have something to do with maybe a minor risk, maybe no risk at all.

Why is it unreasonable to want something in reverse? I don't want to walk around preaching, I want to put the fear of Toz into some NPCs.

Isia

My quick two cents.. This is really similar to Lusternia's influence system and one of the major things that turned me off about Lusternia was that there were TOO MANY mechanics.. it was super busy and duty to things like influencing revolts got to be too much paired with everything else going on. We already have plenty of things in place and honestly this is one that I just don't feel like fits.. plus the experience wasn't really worth the time expenditure for me. The time I did spend with it was for the roleplay value to the particular event at hand but it is not something I wish to spend time at consistently

Zaila

This just in: coms can also play noncom games! 

Church

Toz

Zaila said:

This just in: noncoms can also play com games! 

Silena

Karhast said:

It's really, really nice to have a sense of being able to contribute, though I'm not sure that's a feeling that'll carry over well after this particular event is done. Enorian has a history of getting a raw deal during events, and one reason I've been going preaching a lot was not wanting to see that happen yet again. If that's not going to be a factor in future installments, I don't think I'd bother as much, myself.

Yeah, I know. That's one thing I am considering for setting this up - making it so that it's balanced between all the orgs and that wouldn't be dependent on people logging hours to win.

Karhast said:

Second.. I'm not really sure what the idea behind the five different preaching lines were. If it's variety, great! They're fun lines. Figuring out what lines fit on which Mhun was all done through trial and error, though; if there's reason to it, I don't think anyone's found how. Furthermore, the independent Mhun converting faster than typicals is a nice touch, but the way to convert priestly ones is incredibly opaque; we haven't gotten a single one, and if there even is a way.. It feels a little rude to get our hopes up like that.

I completely agree, this was one of those issues that seemed like it'd work when I first wrote it, but seeing it in practice, I hated it. For this particular event there wasn't much incentive to do extensive testing or change the mechanics, but it is definitely something I want to adjust in any permanent system. I don't like that it's not clear what the logic behind it is, and I don't like that there was no way to tell how to(or how to not) convert the priestly mhuns.

Karhast said:

If you want to tie this into something not related to events, do consider how PK will factor into things. As it stands, this event came to be after some people in Eno got worried and things kinda snowballed, upon which a lot of other orgs had their own reactions but mostly let us be. If it's something much more contentious, I expect to see the usual pattern of both sides duking it out until it becomes clear who's going to come out on top, after which there'll be a waiting game of letting it peter out. This is perfectly fine for lessers and majors, where exhaustion doesn't really become a factor, but if it's anything laster longer than that.. Yeah. Please consider the ramifications of making things worth PKing over, because it will turn into no holds barred fighting the moment that happens.

I really don't want pk to be a positive factor in this at all. The idea is to convert/convince via diplomacy, as I feel like there's plenty of avenues for pk elsewhere and would rather give an rp-related opportunity for non-comms to participate in events. How that actually plays out I'm not sure yet, but... yeah.

Silena

Rhyot said:

Allow me to clarify. Enorian has a solid protectorate thing going for Tainhelm. Because of the influence they have over Tainhelm, they get a slight commodity bonus and stipend to their city every season or so. Someone from Shadow side comes along and starts influencing Tainhelm to renounce their ways or else be slaughtered. This forces a teeter totter motion, because Tainhelm gets slaughtered continuously until the NPCs don't feel that Enorian can offer any protection from the Shadow side, but they don't feel safe allying with Shadow side because they only get slaughtered day and night. This removes any bonuses that Enorian might get from Tainhelm without any ability to get it back because the Shadow side is constantly murdering them. In return, Spirit side would do the same thing to Shadow side "protectorates" because let's face it.... if Spirit side can't have a bonus, the Shadow side doesn't get one either. Keeping the status quo. In the end, neither side gets anything, NPCs feel a lack of empathy on either side and no one can protect them. Ultimately ending up in a system that doesn't get used because its become abused that people don't want to waste their time and effort in doing because they get nothing out of it except maybe a few hundred xp points.

I think this is an excellent point and definitely something to try to avoid.

Rhyot said:

That said, I find it interesting that we're trying to steal borrow modify something that Lusternia has used as a new form of PVE enlightenment and I'm not entirely against it (especially as it means more mobs for me to kill because everyone else is going to want to play Patty Cake with all the NPCs). Additionally the benefit would be a good way for people to level up without having to waste thousands of gold on curatives without any way to really get a profit back. HOWEVER, I worry that this is going to cause an imbalance of interests and negative feelings with things inevitably start leaning towards the range of conflict and large scale PVP fights that last for days on end.

All things worth considering! I'm really attempting not to steal/borrow Lusternia's mechanics here at all, as it just wouldn't fit and some of them would end up being useless and/or trollish(paranoia in particular, and the rest would be a struggle to make sense in aetolia).

Silena

Isia said:

My quick two cents.. This is really similar to Lusternia's influence system and one of the major things that turned me off about Lusternia was that there were TOO MANY mechanics.. it was super busy and duty to things like influencing revolts got to be too much paired with everything else going on. We already have plenty of things in place and honestly this is one that I just don't feel like fits.. plus the experience wasn't really worth the time expenditure for me. The time I did spend with it was for the roleplay value to the particular event at hand but it is not something I wish to spend time at consistently

This is not something that would *ever* be required on a daily/weekly basis the way revolts are in Lusternia. I want it to be something entirely optional, for non-game-altering benefits for those who want to, with the potential for some of it to tie into quests.

Silena

@Toz, @Emir, @Zaila, @Karhast on the question of pk: IMO, it is a mistake to try to separate pk from the rest of the game. Wherever there is a mechanic, there is a pk-related means of influencing said mechanic.

That said, not every mechanic needs to be based on the idea that the best pker is the one who will win. As I see it, a game needs to have a variety of options that appeal to different types of players/play styles. I understand it's frustrating that non-comms are often given special avenues for conflict, but that's because they have to be- pk is already built into the combat system that Keroc works so very hard on. It's always an option, just maybe not the most effective one in all circumstances.