Events post #242: An interlude for Chaos

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  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    Galadriel said:

    @Vyxsis well... I mean if the indorani would have succeeded in making the chaos lords win... the guild would have been destroyed anyways.. I mean it seems to me you're complaining because it wasn't destroyed by the "right" person

    i believe the gambit was that, by remaining loyal to the court, we could shield ourselves and bloodloch - if we were disloyal, golgotha would come to destroy everything and we'd have no bargaining power. it's easy to criticize this in retrospect, but like... it's not unsound reasoning, and it's in line with the indorani's general goals and commitment to their city. considering some of the other bloodlochian guilds' goals, i find it hard to believe "the rest of the world can die, we don't care" is really a controversial point of view, ICly-speaking.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    Iakei said:

    As someone new to the Indorani and Aetolia as a whole, im wondering how this works out for me.. as not having a guild , do i seek out the members of the guild to learn from, will i get shunned ic for being an Indorani?

    Thanks

    Iakei

    Iakei, on the one hand, i get why you might not want to associate with Vyxsis ICly, but if there's ever anything you need or want to know about the class, you're quite welcome to hit me up OOCly via tell or message. whatever my faults might be as a guild leader, i think it's pretty universally-agreed that i'm good at the class, so i can help with most anything. i'm really so sorry that i got the guild deleted, as i can imagine that's confusing and disappointing for a newcomer.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




    Tybereus
  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 31
    edited October 2018
    Vyxsis said:

    Galadriel said:

    @Vyxsis well... I mean if the indorani would have succeeded in making the chaos lords win... the guild would have been destroyed anyways.. I mean it seems to me you're complaining because it wasn't destroyed by the "right" person

    i believe the gambit was that, by remaining loyal to the court, we could shield ourselves and bloodloch - if we were disloyal, golgotha would come to destroy everything and we'd have no bargaining power. it's easy to criticize this in retrospect, but like... it's not unsound reasoning, and it's in line with the indorani's general goals and commitment to their city. considering some of the other bloodlochian guilds' goals, i find it hard to believe "the rest of the world can die, we don't care" is really a controversial point of view, ICly-speaking.
    Ooook... So you're mad that Golgotha didn't destroy the rest of the world and leave only your guild intact? I mean, pretty sure only other indorani are gonna agree with you that, that point of view still not only doesn't make sense but its incredibly selfish. I mean do you really think the game would be fun with "only" your guild? The game developers would lose their entire playerbase except the Indorani... Which I noticed you mentioned "paying customers" Hey the rest of us are too... we like our game... So from that point of view the developers were like hrm... lose only the indorani guild, people still like the class and play it... and "pay for it"... or literally lose all their other income... I wonder which they'd choose.
    AlathesiaTybereusVyxsisMjoll
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    Galadriel said:

    Vyxsis said:

    Galadriel said:

    @Vyxsis well... I mean if the indorani would have succeeded in making the chaos lords win... the guild would have been destroyed anyways.. I mean it seems to me you're complaining because it wasn't destroyed by the "right" person

    i believe the gambit was that, by remaining loyal to the court, we could shield ourselves and bloodloch - if we were disloyal, golgotha would come to destroy everything and we'd have no bargaining power. it's easy to criticize this in retrospect, but like... it's not unsound reasoning, and it's in line with the indorani's general goals and commitment to their city. considering some of the other bloodlochian guilds' goals, i find it hard to believe "the rest of the world can die, we don't care" is really a controversial point of view, ICly-speaking.
    Ooook... So you're mad that Golgotha didn't destroy the rest of the world and leave only your guild intact? I mean, pretty sure only other indorani are gonna agree with you that, that point of view still not only doesn't make sense but its incredibly selfish. I mean do you really think the game would be fun with "only" your guild? The game developers would lose their entire playerbase except the Indorani... Which I noticed you mentioned "paying customers" Hey the rest of us are too... we like our game... So from that point of view the developers were like hrm... lose only the indorani guild people still like the class and play it... and "pay for it"... or literally lose all their other income... I wonder which they'd choose.
    i said 'and bloodloch' - but no, i as a player didn't think golgotha would *actually* destroy the whole world. i'm telling you the IC reasoning. goodness gracious...
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    and i mean, i mentioned being a customer in reference to how razmael spoke to me, not to say "i should get my way all the time"... honestly, dude, come on.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




    Galadriel
  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 31
    ok fine... replace guild with city
    Mjoll
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 213 ✭✭✭
    According to the way things are written, the Indorani are being treated this way because Golgotha is going to kill you all and the gods and Jox will be free and destroy Sapience. I wouldn't blame you if you don't believe that's going to happen or get on your case after the fact. I won't post anymore even if I really want to do it. I just feel like utter trash and this helped a little bit. I really hope that my post makes sense to some people.

  • ZailaZaila Pacific TimeMember Posts: 432 ✭✭✭✭
    I have 100% NOT read anything up until this last post - bear this in mind.

    But referencing being a customer in terms of how you expect to be treated by customer service is like one of the standard incoming-call-center drinking game lines.
    GaladrielLuasIazamatKoda
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    i mean... that's funny, but like... i think it was a legitimate thing to point out in light of being told to get my head out of my unicorns without explanation
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




    Zaila
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    regarding not being given any guidance as a guild or a chance to develop, like, i really, really don't get why that didn't happen. i mean, it could *still* happen, but i was told no, the indorani are gone. it's especially weird because, like... you wanna create a new direction? i'm your friggin girl! if anything, i'm obnoxious with ideas! i already have ideas about how we could develop to never have this sort of conflict again! we'd still retain our humble-pie moment and everything, like... wow, i'm so lousy with ideas after having spent almost no time thinking about how this could work that it's really pretty preposterous that Deleting The Indorani was the only thing to do. this coulda been stopped from a lore/org-direction front on either end just as much as it could've been stopped by a different story-telling choice on either end.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




  • ZailaZaila Pacific TimeMember Posts: 432 ✭✭✭✭
    In all sincerity, though:

    I'm sorry your guild got deleted, that's got to feel like a massive let down. I know I would be bummed out, even if I was super pleased by the story that went along with it!

    If you're still in the mood to play the game, keep it coming! But, if you're really upset about it (which is totally fair, because feeling like your effort has been wiped out is going to make most people upset) I'd suggest taking a step away from the game for a little bit (even if it's just a couple days - but a week often works better to reset the brain) and then come back and see if you're still as upset. Hopefully you won't be and you will be in a better headspace to appreciate the awesome blaze of glory you helped a guild go down in!

    I'm sure you're hurting, that sucks and is reasonable, but it's also going to make you more vulnerable to being rude or mean in a way that you might regret later and that's never any fun after the fact.

    I hope you newly guildless feel better soon!
    TybereusVyxsisLuas
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    @Alathesia told ICly by a God, who afaik we're not supposed to take as admin mouthpieces. at the end of the day, we're trying to RP with what we're given. if admin want the guild to change direction, that's fine, but putting it in the mouths of The Divine Liarman and Our Literal Enemy is a weird, weird choice. allowing no chance for the guild to grow or develop out of this corner we were placed in by the organizational lore we were given is, again, a weird, weird choice. if the problem is actually a particular player (e.g., and most likely, me), why the hell would you punish the whole group? administratively remove that person from office, for godssake, don't ruin things for everyone. like... jeez.

    really, though, i think the armchair psychologizing needs to stop. i'm gonna say this once and for all: we didn't want the event to be about us; we just wanted to RP in the way that seemed to fit our characters and their commitments, and the vast bulk of those commitments, including the ones relevant to this event, are ones we were given in the form of org and god lore - not just one idiosyncratic player.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




  • AlathesiaAlathesia Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭
    @Vyxsis I am not sure why you would not take the word of a Divine as word of admin... that puzzles me.

    When the Carnifex had to change direction I was approach before hand and told what was needed to know and an outline of what will happen. If this was a situation that was going to push the Indorani in a different direction you would have been approached. If this was a situation that the admin wanted the Indorani specifically involved with you would have been approached. The fact you were not approached and blindly went into this with your actions means the Indorani were -not- supposed to be in the spot light. I have been approached by admin and Divine both about the Carnifex and change or directions they wanted me to take them.

    "With great power comes great responsibilities."
    TybereusVyxsis
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    Zaila said:

    In all sincerity, though:

    I'm sorry your guild got deleted, that's got to feel like a massive let down. I know I would be bummed out, even if I was super pleased by the story that went along with it!

    If you're still in the mood to play the game, keep it coming! But, if you're really upset about it (which is totally fair, because feeling like your effort has been wiped out is going to make most people upset) I'd suggest taking a step away from the game for a little bit (even if it's just a couple days - but a week often works better to reset the brain) and then come back and see if you're still as upset. Hopefully you won't be and you will be in a better headspace to appreciate the awesome blaze of glory you helped a guild go down in!

    I'm sure you're hurting, that sucks and is reasonable, but it's also going to make you more vulnerable to being rude or mean in a way that you might regret later and that's never any fun after the fact.

    I hope you newly guildless feel better soon!

    yeah, you're probably right. to be clear, i'm less upset about the actual deletion of the guild than i am about how it was handled, the complete lack of options now that it's done, how my guildies are being affected, and the way razmael spoke to me.

    idk how long i can stay away because i'm neurotic as hell, but yeah - for now, goodnight all
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




  • TybereusTybereus Member Posts: 26
    edited October 2018
    Jester guild please

    @Vyxsis I have no hate towards you but I really think jester guild is up your alley
    VyxsisKandara
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    Alathesia said:

    @Vyxsis I am not sure why you would not take the word of a Divine as word of admin... that puzzles me.

    i said i was leaving aaahhhhhhh

    somebody back me up here - i'm not nuts, right? IC God speech =/= admin?? right???? bueller???????


    okthxbai
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




  • AlathesiaAlathesia Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭
    Tybereus said:

    Jester guild please

    I mean, that is a great decision and would be greatly greatly appreciated! -nudge @Tiur -
    TybereusKandara
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think some of the slightly insulting positivity being expressed is more a side effect of folks realizing the higher stakes of consequences possible, than a ha ha screw you. When you're like aaaaa what do I do now it has to seem pretty harsh. I more or less thought you guys were just bravely self immolating for chaos sake and respected it for what I thought it was. People complain more about the lack of consequences here than anything. Sorry if you felt railroaded and your intent wasn't to push the envelope that far.




    Tybereus
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    Tybereus said:

    Jester guild please

    @Vyxsis I have no hate towards you but I really think jester guild is up your alley

    you have no idea how right you are
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




  • LuasLuas Member Posts: 12
    Just pitching in here because I'm curious.

    I had assumed that the deletion of the Indorani guild was something that had probably been planned/slated to happen for a while now, and that this event and the actions of the players presented a golden opportunity to make it happen.

    It never occurred to me that it could have been done to 'punish' anyone until I read this thread. I figured that the Indorani leadership were in on it and played things through to help make it happen, just as part of the natural development of the game setting. I'm new to Aetolia in the larger scheme of things, but my understanding is that this is how game updates happen. A fun, interactive event, and incorporating the mechanical change into the history and lore of the game world.

    Is that not the case?

    P.S. Badass event is badass. Regardless of anything else, I personally feel that the storyline and execution are being handled beautifully. I'm in a wonky timezone too, so I miss out on a lot. I really appreciate that there are things like the blood buckets for we off-peakers to participate in. Kudos, godmins.
    AlathesiaTybereus
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    Luas said:

    Just pitching in here because I'm curious.

    I had assumed that the deletion of the Indorani guild was something that had probably been planned/slated to happen for a while now, and that this event and the actions of the players presented a golden opportunity to make it happen.

    It never occurred to me that it could have been done to 'punish' anyone until I read this thread. I figured that the Indorani leadership were in on it and played things through to help make it happen, just as part of the natural development of the game setting. I'm new to Aetolia in the larger scheme of things, but my understanding is that this is how game updates happen. A fun, interactive event, and incorporating the mechanical change into the history and lore of the game world.

    Is that not the case?

    P.S. Badass event is badass. Regardless of anything else, I personally feel that the storyline and execution are being handled beautifully. I'm in a wonky timezone too, so I miss out on a lot. I really appreciate that there are things like the blood buckets for we off-peakers to participate in. Kudos, godmins.

    i literally can't make good on not checking and responding, siiiiiigh my brain sucks

    afaik, deleting a whole guild because they made one "wrong" choice in an event is pretty much unprecedented. i could be wrong, but that's the way i've heard it. usually, you'd have some OOC warning and/or OOC guidance about what they want from you that you're not doing - or, if it's planned because they want to introduce something else, they'll tell you and lay out how it's gonna happen/what to expect. completely deleting a guild without some form of opportunity to correct for, at worst, misreading a situation and following their org RP isn't something i've heard about. not the daru, not the cabal, not the . even those two examples were folded in or allowed to reinvent themselves. granted, none of the examples i know about took place under Tiur, but i assumed i could expect equal or higher standards from him rather than lower.

    tbh, up until today? i assumed we hadn't heard anything from admin because they didn't want to spoil the surprise of how the story would turn out. i figured we were in trouble, sure, but not like... actually gone trouble. i was actually pretty optimistic. tried telling people not to worry, don't freak out, things aren't over, we don't know what'll happen, this could be yet another "lol artifice" moment, etc. i pointed out the various things that normally seem to happen upon org deletion (top of the list: communication) hadn't occurred. i personally felt pretty positive. however, since nobody contacted me beforehand about an upcoming deletion or contacted me after to tell me what was up, i reached out on my own out of concern for the players in the guild - my attempts to reassure and calm them were getting a bit threadbare. and, well, here we are.

    tl;dr if it was planned, we didn't know about it. technically, it's an IC punishment, but considering how unprecedented it is and there was no "hey, we think we might actually do things like this now", people are upset.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."




    Luas
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the incorrect assumption here was that @Vyxsis believed she would be allowed to play a bit more when the Chaos seal was revealed, which wasn't the case. Her choices and reactions were perhaps based off of those assumptions? Meaning what made sense for the Indorani when keeping that in mind. The choice to ignore the Divine, who were focused on what others perceived as a "band together" event, and roll the "focus on Chaos" dice brought on these consequences, as were already promised if the Indorani decided to walk down that path (Severn's threat, and Damariel backing him up).

    If a Shadow seal had appeared, you bet your unicorn that Teani (or probably any Sciomancer present for that) would have asked questions and made suggestions, wondering if they could do something to help. Even if Sciomancers have a strong connection to the Shadow Plane, and there are plenty of threats involved in that Plane as well as that of Chaos, I doubt Teani would have gone poking around after being put in a chokehold by Severn and told "No you don't".

    This whole thing has had a global event feel to it from the beginning, what with both sides of the Pantheon being involved, so if they wanted to switch focus to something specific, I think they would nudge those people specifically (as has been mentioned perviously in this thread.

    (As a side note: this might be what made the Master Crystal event so confusing for some, as Sciomancers and Ascendril got the nudge by way of interaction within their guildhalls, and then they were sort of dropped by the side and left on their own while the rest of the world enjoyed the global event.)



    TybereusIazamatGaladriel
  • LuasLuas Member Posts: 12
    Thanks for clarifying, Vyx. Hard to piece all this together from an outside perspective.

    Honestly, I'm pretty impressed to learn that it may have all been completely improvised. Learning that our character's decisions can effect such a significant change on the setting? That's legitimately dope.

    But then, none of this directly impacts me or my gameplay, so my opinion is really neither here nor there. I feel for any Indos who have been put out by all of this. My advice aligns with that stated by others on the first page: try to own it, have fun with it, make it part of your story. It's a really unique character development opportunity and I'm interested to see how it all evolves.
    Oonagh
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    Right, I wasn't trying to imply otherwise, I just wanted to clear up the confusion of God shell vs admin shell and that being told something by Severn does not carry the same administrative weight as being told by Razmael. People mistaking Severn speaking from an admin position during the start of the war is an example of why this confusion is bad.  
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    AlathesiaIazamatLeana
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