Orrery

Rhyot

Benedicto said:

1. Patently false. Most of the order were online, they just didn't do anything about it.

2. Remember when the Templar and more specifically me was roundly criticized for that decision and now the same people that were shouting down the houses are now the ones encouraging the same behavior?

To note, no one is sitting there and encouraging any sort of chain defiling behavior. At least not to my knowledge.
And yes, I do remember, but as far as I'm aware, we're still not encouraging the aforementioned individual to continue to chain defile. Sure, we had an IG discussion where Rhyot isn't going to condemn his citizen to death because of it, but none of us are patting him on the back saying "Good job" either.

Secondly, let's keep on topic instead of derailing.

Haven said:

Using an Order to attack at the Orrery for tactical advantage is clever and poses an interesting element/challenge to a skirmish. No one is denying this. However, once the dust settles you have to think about the long-term implications and I think it's a legitimate discussion we should be having.

Strip the issue of the politics and look at the core elements of what's happening: The only realistic counter to a shrine is to destroy the shrine. Destroying the shrine, however, also makes the person open PK for 24 PLAY TIME hours and therefor extends the conflict beyond the scope of the original 10-15min skirmish. One might argue that is an acceptable risk for removing your opponent's advantage until you consider what is the opponent Order risking?

War is off the table because they can immediately surrender to avoid the conflict and thus be immune to further declarations for a year. Advantage goes to Order (1) / Defiler (0). Shrine loss? Again, the advantage goes to the defending Order (2) because any defilers (0) outside of war are open PK to -everyone- and thus the Order can choose to hunt the defilers with friends without any real repercussion for a conflict THE ORDER started.

Is this fair gameplay? What can be done to make it better for all involved? Or is it fine as is? This is what's being discussed here. I do not believe that it is fair if only because the Order can opt out scott-free via auto-surrendering essentially while the affected parties have to either stay at disadvantage or endure a long global flag of open PK to everyone. High reward, no risk (the Order) and a High Risk, low reward (the Defiler) is not good or fair gameplay.

Let's please try and not make this situation more than it is with politics and continue the discussion at hand.

Haven

I'm gonna skip past the beating around the bush. What Naro is doing is a separate issue all together and shouldn't be used to group all of Shadow together as "bad" or used to justify bad mechanics. Punish Naro how you want with IG politics or whatever, I'm right there with you in game but it doesn't have any real place in the discussion that's being had here.

Rhine

I honestly do not understand why every single issue people have in a RP game has to come to the forums. Play the game and stop being jerks to one another OOC. There's enough horrible things going on outside of our little escape from the real world. Be adults. Be kind to one another.

Rijetta

This is an important discussion to have but the discussion specifically is about shrines at the Orrery and what to do about this. Haven is mostly right in that what Naro is doing (mass defiling) has almost nothing to do with the topic at hand, except that it sprung forth from the aforementioned Orrery shrine and, in my opinion, proves that something needs to be done about this.

@Keroc I'd love if you would weigh in on some of the suggestions mentioned and maybe help keep us more focused on what I believe are the core questions here: should shrines be allowed at Orrery, and if so, should they give defilement aura when dusted?

Keroc

I guess it depends on what you guys want.

I don't really see a problem with shrines being used though personally. The repercussion is that someone might go and destroy all your Order shrines for doing so.

Savas

A portion of the community would rather not have conflict bleed outside of the Orrery at all. A lot of people just PVP in lessers and Orrery and rarely if ever get caught up in interpersonal conflict/drama or Order stuff.

As an example, at this latest Orrery when it was decided we needed to take down the shrine; I vividly remember this striking moment where we all just kind of... looked at each other for a solid five minutes of silence. Nobody wanted to be the one with Defile aura because plainly, being open PK for 24 hours fricking sucks.

Thankfully a hero did step up and do the deed, but is it really fair to expect that every time? Defile aura is way too severe, and to be blunt, if I'm going to be expected to have defile aura on me every time I go to the orrery, I'm going to stop participating in it. I don't want to try waging a one-man order war just to prove a point. The orrery should just be the orrery.

Hawa

Keroc said:

The repercussion is that someone might go and destroy all your Order shrines for doing so.

who tf has time for that... seriously, taking down a shrine takes ages... get a hobby... take a walk... drink some water... wow

Haven

The problem is not the tactic(shrines) but the byproduct of the tactic (defilement aura). Because of defilement aura, when Shrines are utilized in an Open PK event like this, as per the rules, the Order has everything to gain and the victims everything to lose. It does not encourage competitive or fair gameplay.

Some possible solutions:

1. Have Orrery/Open PK Zones negate shrine powers (Extreme option that closes down the avenue altogether. Please don't do this.)
   
2. Don't give defilement aura or significantly lower defilement aura duration while initiating a defiling inside an Orrery/open PK zone (Ideal compromise that leaves tactical option alone but allows countermeasures to not be so punishing in these niche cases.)
   
3. Make surrendering a Holy War cause the losing Order to lose 75% of their shrines on top of the normal penalties. (Extreme option that adds a big risk to using tactical advantage. Unfortunately it also removes strategic surrendering from normal Order Wars which in turn forces Orders small or big to commit to Wars until the bitter end each time. No bueno.)
   
4. Make surrendering a channeled ability during the initial 48-72 hour period an Order War is declared. After this grace period, allow surrenders their normal immediate effect. (A good option. This gives the aggressor adequate time to hurt an Order if no ceasefire terms are agreed upon while still allowing losing Orders the option to cut their losses and utilize strategic surrendering.)
   

Option 2 or 4 are the best solutions in my opinion. I'd personally go with option 4. It's the smallest change with the biggest QoL impact.

Edit: Or pick both. That's good too.

Gavramel

+1 for #2

/10char

Benedicto

I'm for not giving/significantly reducing the length of defilement aura for defiling a shrine within open PK zones. That allows for use of shrine powers and strategies whilst also acknowledging that the shrine can be taken down with significant griefing consequences post Orrery/event/whatever. You're already open PK if you're in there defiling anyway, there's no real need to layer the usual defilement aura on top of that.

Me and @Nisavi had a rather amicable arrangement regarding it in the end. I acknowledged the defilement of the shrine as a tactical requirement that was left to lie once Orrery was closed. Hence why I didn't attempt to go after her post-Orrery and why I've not defiled the new Chak shrine that replaced the Slyphian one.

Rhyot

Shrine powers shouldn't be a thing that can be used in the Orrery though. While it is a sound tactical advantage, it still has far too much room to bleed outside of the orrery. Additionally, there is absolutely -no- counterplay to Shrines being used other than "lol sit and defile for 15 minutes newb". Even if one side -does- eliminate the entrenched team, the respawn time is 2 minutes, add another 2 minutes for regroup and you can immediately Shrine Travel (bypass aegis set up), set up your various shrine abilities, and start fighting immediately while someone might possibly be taking down the shrine.

Even if you DID remove the length of defilement aura (or even nullified it entirely) in PK Zones, you're still opening up people to defiling your shrines in lessers as well, because it's an open PK zone. Same for the Fracture. This bleedout -WILL- cause negative reactions to be had because people -WILL- get angry about it and eventually a new set of rules will have to be reinstated, because let's be real.... we have no sense of common courtesy in Aetolia.

While Benedicto and Nisavi did come to an agreement and understand the decisions behind it.... they are -2- people. There are 11 more Orders and of those Orders people who don't have the same level of understanding that others do and will go out for blood and pull eye for an eye. While it does allow for conflict, the level of conflict would only escalate because of a sense of needing to defend your allies from getting jumped (defilement aura or not).


As such, shrines should just ultimately be removed from the Orrery area (exactly like how the Vortex cannot have shrines in it) to eliminate any sort of negative adverse reaction, eliminate something that has absolutely no real counterplay other than destroying the shrine, and dissuade anyone (Shadow or Spirit) from causing so much bleed out that people no longer want to participate in the already minimal conflict we have.

Czcienn

Also nerf attuned aegises. Way too powerful and also has no counterplay unless you can spend half an hour at a time destroying/attuning.

Teani

I don't mind there being a shrine in that area, and it makes sense that defiling gives an aura to show they have done something bad (I'd also prefer if the aura actually shone with a different color depending on which deity they attacked. That would be awesome, but maybe that's just me). However, shrines are connected to Orders and Order business, and I do not see the connection between the Orrery and Order business. All it does is give whomever has a shrine in the area the advantage of using Shrine Powers against its enemies or to gain quick access or support for allies. Still, it is not Order-related in my eyes.

(For those who do consider Orrery or Foci battles an Order-related thing, I'd really like to see no combined fighting with people outside the Order, so split those webs and keep them to Order/Congregants only. Or better yet, use the Congregation channel to coordinate the battles! )

My proposal, to negate Shrine Powers only when Orrery is active and the shrine is not under attack, means that there is no need to attack the shrine. Having a shrine there is not a tactical advantage during an otherwise general event, other than making it easier to offer corpses right away. This could also work for shrines that end up inside ylem auras now and then.

If, however, someone attacks the shrine while Orrery is active, they clearly have something against the Order. That makes it an Order-related business, so have the powers return straight away to allow the Order to storm in and retaliate as is proper. I suppose, with people being the way they can be, that this needs the proper checks and balances, so that the Order doesn't send one of its allies in to defile, only to be able to use the shrine powers in the Orrery fight.

Czcienn

Man, can't even make a serious statement about another aspect of Orrery that I feel needs to be looked at in the thread about Orrery without people marking it as off topic.

Benedicto

Rhyot said:

As such, shrines should just ultimately be removed from the Orrery area (exactly like how the Vortex cannot have shrines in it) to eliminate any sort of negative adverse reaction, eliminate something that has absolutely no real counterplay other than destroying the shrine, and dissuade anyone (Shadow or Spirit) from causing so much bleed out that people no longer want to participate in the already minimal conflict we have.

There is pretty much exactly the same sort of counterplay to shrines as there is to aegis. You just avoid them. The Orrery itself is only capable of holding one shrine. Shrine powers (with the exception of Avatar which will stay on the OR9 member who asked for it for a 2 room radius) are room specific. Therefore, if neither you nor your enemy are stood on the shrine, you won't benefit/be affected by the powers.

Currently the Chak shrine in Orrery is on the middle lane of orrery. If I were the person leading Spirit and we had the globe and were expecting you to attack, I wouldn't stand in that middle lane. I'd stand in the one to either the right or left. You're still one room in either direction to an entrance/exit and your shrine powers won't affect my team. Also, you can infuse from anywhere in the Orrery, it doesn't have to be at the telescope (unless something has changed I'm not aware of.) Therefore, nothing dictates that I have to stand on an enemy shrine and be subject to any shrine powers.

With this in mind, it becomes plain bad tactics to stand on top of an enemy shrine *especially* if you're expecting shrine shenanigans. The hardest and most effective counter you can make is just....not standing on it.

Elene

Slight derail that probably adds nothing for the discussion.

I'm admittedly not super familiar with how shrine powers work, given I was under the impression that shrine powers used on large shrines still affect order enemies up to two rooms away from it, and I am even less familiar with how shrine powers work with someone who is Avatar.

I'm guessing they are treated as 'mobile shrines' and their enemies are treated as order enemies for the duration Avatar is up, which then probably makes some sense how people were getting hit by shrine paroxysm when they weren't enemied to the order in the first place.

Benedicto

Elene said:

Slight derail that probably adds nothing for the discussion.

I'm admittedly not super familiar with how shrine powers work, given I was under the impression that shrine powers used on large shrines still affect order enemies up to two rooms away from it, and I am even less familiar with how shrine powers work with someone who is Avatar.

I'm guessing they are treated as 'mobile shrines' and their enemies are treated as order enemies for the duration Avatar is up, which then probably makes some sense how people were getting hit by shrine paroxysm when they weren't enemied to the order in the first place.

Avatar is a power in and of itself that boosts stats/gives additional health. It's essentially the donning of a skin that will remain active within a 2 room radius of the shrine it's proc'd on. As soon as you break that radius, the overlay drops and your stats go back to normal.

Paroxysm isn't order enemies, it's enemies of the person who beseeched the shrine for the power. That's why people were getting hit who aren't Order enemies (as that's a very small list indeed.) There are some powers that attack the enemies of the Order member that beseeched, there are powers that attack their personal enemies. Conversely, there are powers that heal only order members in the room and there are beneficial powers for your personal allies in room. The ORDER PRIVS list is fairly comprehensive.

Nisavi

Benedicto said:

Elene said:

Slight derail that probably adds nothing for the discussion.

I'm admittedly not super familiar with how shrine powers work, given I was under the impression that shrine powers used on large shrines still affect order enemies up to two rooms away from it, and I am even less familiar with how shrine powers work with someone who is Avatar.

I'm guessing they are treated as 'mobile shrines' and their enemies are treated as order enemies for the duration Avatar is up, which then probably makes some sense how people were getting hit by shrine paroxysm when they weren't enemied to the order in the first place.

Avatar is a power in and of itself that boosts stats/gives additional health. It's essentially the donning of a skin that will remain active within a 2 room radius of the shrine it's proc'd on. As soon as you break that radius, the overlay drops and your stats go back to normal.

Paroxysm isn't order enemies, it's enemies of the person who beseeched the shrine for the power. That's why people were getting hit who aren't Order enemies (as that's a very small list indeed.) There are some powers that attack the enemies of the Order member that beseeched, there are powers that attack their personal enemies. Conversely, there are powers that heal only order members in the room and there are beneficial powers for your personal allies in room. The ORDER PRIVS list is fairly comprehensive.

Benedicto said:

Elene said:

Slight derail that probably adds nothing for the discussion.

I'm admittedly not super familiar with how shrine powers work, given I was under the impression that shrine powers used on large shrines still affect order enemies up to two rooms away from it, and I am even less familiar with how shrine powers work with someone who is Avatar.

I'm guessing they are treated as 'mobile shrines' and their enemies are treated as order enemies for the duration Avatar is up, which then probably makes some sense how people were getting hit by shrine paroxysm when they weren't enemied to the order in the first place.

Avatar is a power in and of itself that boosts stats/gives additional health. It's essentially the donning of a skin that will remain active within a 2 room radius of the shrine it's proc'd on. As soon as you break that radius, the overlay drops and your stats go back to normal.

Paroxysm isn't order enemies, it's enemies of the person who beseeched the shrine for the power. That's why people were getting hit who aren't Order enemies (as that's a very small list indeed.) There are some powers that attack the enemies of the Order member that beseeched, there are powers that attack their personal enemies. Conversely, there are powers that heal only order members in the room and there are beneficial powers for your personal allies in room. The ORDER PRIVS list is fairly comprehensive.

I think your argument heavily discounts the ability to fast travel from the Master Shrine and immediately place yourself in the room that is required to hold in order to infuse the Orrery, thus bypassing presently existing defenses (to include ensorcell) and allowing yourself to bunker down. You immediately get to bypass ranged attacks, fortifications, and can instantly begin an assault OR bunker down on the room that we'd need to take in order to win.

While trolling a small Order is not something that I would do, or Nisavi would do in game, I don't feel like structures/mechanics that are commonly leveraging towards order conflict should be leveraged in Orrery. Not unless the shrine raisers are willing to potentially get themselves Holy War'd over it, and my opinions on Holy Wars in general are largely negative.

If it is determined that shrines are allowed, I believe that shrines in Open PK areas should be fair game at all times to defilement and not subject their defiler to defilement aura. Let's be honest with ourselves in that raising a shrine requires less risk with ylem shards in order to raise it instantly than it does for a defiler to remain in the Open PK area for 15 minutes to complete the defilement. Regardless of how significant or not the tactical advantage is for a shrine to be at that room, it is still an advantage -- and one that requires someone subject themselves to being Open PK for 24 hours in order to negate. To put it simply: the effort to counterplay is extreme by comparison to the risk it takes to raise said shrine, and the advantages that it offers.

Escelika

This is my opinion on the situation: I'm not a fan of admin stepping in to change things that we could regulate in-game.

But... removing defilement aura won't solve this as a problem and coding in a bunch of new solutions is not worth the effort the Pools would have to employ to make it fit in better fixes - such as faster defilement, longer raising, or removing aura (I think).

Unless players want to grief the Divine order who does it (Which is how it would be regulated in-game), then I support the idea to remove the ability to lay shrines within the four rooms of the Orrery to just remove that issue altogether. I'm not sure how hard it would be for the Pools to code that, it would allow Orrery to be its own self-contained thing. I'm sure there could be lore reasons as to why shrines can be raised there, to begin with.

Part of me would prefer that whoever lays the shrine opens their whole Order up to retribution by the opposing tether because that would allow more conflict outside of Ylem and Orrey. Though, I hear Holy Wars are awful for everyone involved. Spilling conflict outside of Ylem and Orrery may start lowering participation.

Elene

Benedicto said:

Slight derail that probably adds nothing for the discussion. I'm admittedly not super familiar with how shrine powers work, given I was under the impression that shrine powers used on large shrines still affect order enemies up to two rooms away from it, and I am even less familiar with how shrine powers work with someone who is Avatar. I'm guessing they are treated as 'mobile shrines' and their enemies are treated as order enemies for the duration Avatar is up, which then probably makes some sense how people were getting hit by shrine paroxysm when they weren't enemied to the order in the first place.

Avatar is a power in and of itself that boosts stats/gives additional health. It's essentially the donning of a skin that will remain active within a 2 room radius of the shrine it's proc'd on. As soon as you break that radius, the overlay drops and your stats go back to normal. Paroxysm isn't order enemies, it's enemies of the person who beseeched the shrine for the power. That's why people were getting hit who aren't Order enemies (as that's a very small list indeed.) There are some powers that attack the enemies of the Order member that beseeched, there are powers that attack their personal enemies. Conversely, there are powers that heal only order members in the room and there are beneficial powers for your personal allies in room. The ORDER PRIVS list is fairly comprehensive.

Thanks!