PvE Rebalancing

Evalyne

Economy is a huge factor into my dislike of bashing on Mykellah. Every time I go out bashing Im basically havong to dump a bunch of gold on curatives, and every third time or so, on new armour and weapon(s). Its a huge resource sink for a frankly subpar class that I find boring to bash on to begin with. The damage now is ... okay, but Sacrifice seems pointless at first blush to me now. Ill see if I cant find an hour or so to bash on Miki and do some proper benchmarks and see how justified or not that gut feeling is.

Satomi

Keroc said:

You may want to test Carnifex again, I had to change some things for them as max damage weapons were superior over the standard 120-140 range.

Also yes, Desolate does not work in PvE for the time being. I should've mentioned this in the post but it slipped my mind.

So you're saying that their damage is even better than what I posted. That's... a bit strong. Not gonna lie, people were telling me how nerfed Carnifex was, and so far it still is the best Shadow bashing class in terms of raw output. And that was with subpar weaponry to boot.

Toz

Temp damage was one of the top dogs until the squish, so hardly a subpar class. A little fragile but you could overcome that plenty of ways (vigor especially- 4x the chances to crit is 4x the chance to heal!).

Tiur

Note that weapons were a large factor in this. They are super obnoxious in code, and actually have an even more complicated formula behind them... A lot of this is figuring out what to do with them.

So, how about we delete weapon stats. Please?

Leana

Tiur said:

Note that weapons were a large factor in this. They are super obnoxious in code, and actually have an even more complicated formula behind them... A lot of this is figuring out what to do with them.

So, how about we delete weapon stats. Please?

Let's get rid of crown too.

Satomi

delete weapon stats, insert weapon degredation, include limb armor, gear maintenance! Also, @Toz, I'm pretty sure vigor can only proc once per combo, unless you use each skill individually. Could be wrong.

Toz

Satomi said:

delete weapon stats, insert weapon degredation, include limb armor, gear maintenance! Also, @Toz, I'm pretty sure vigor can only proc once per combo, unless you use each skill individually. Could be wrong.

Yeah once per combo. But if I swing once with a 50% crit rate 50% of the time I won't crit.

Swing 4x per combo and you get 4 coinflips instead of 1, and only still need 1 heads.

Tiur

I don't wanna derail too much, since we should discuss the current changes, but yeah. I like weapon/armor degradation, repairs, quality etc. Then remove stats... everyone uses one of three spreads anyway.

Leana

Satomi said:

delete weapon stats, insert weapon degredation, include limb armor, gear maintenance! Also, @Toz, I'm pretty sure vigor can only proc once per combo, unless you use each skill individually. Could be wrong.

Limb armor could be used to calculate divert chance to not mess up limb classes, breaking off after too much punishment. Everything sounds great... IF ONLY COMMS WERE NOT SCARCE. It'd bankrupt the game if we had to spend comms or gold to keep armor/weapons in good condition without a solution to the economy/comms issues.

Satomi

Do what Imperian did Whetstone for weapons (takes 1 stone) (forget what they used for blunt weapons, tbh, since my weapon was always cutting), and I don't think they had armor degredation but it could just take a steel or something per 'tier'.

But yeah, @Tiur, the only classes that rely on weapon stats, for Shadow, are Teradrim (dmg stat), Syssin (dmg for whip, speed for dirk), and Carnifex (dmg for bashing, speed for polearm pk) Wayfarer too!! (dmg for axes)

Pretty sure on lifer side, Templar is the only one that relies on weapons, since Sentinels craft their own and I think Luminaries imbuing their mace causes their mace stats to homogenize for class.

Also, armor and shields, of course, for everyone.

The difficulty there is making forgers not feel like they are a waste, since the better you forge, the more likely you are to be commissioned. That can be solved, though, if quality were introduced and the better at forging you are, the more durable the armor is before it needs repairs or something. If the whole limb armor/maintenance thing became a thing.

Toz

Do you have some time to talk about our Lord and savior delete crown while you're at it? 7% speed increase gotta be hard to balance around, why not just kick up your feet and relaaaaaax instead? B-)

Satomi

@toz at least when it comes to bashing, Crown gives you about a 40-60 dps increase, plus shorter reaction time if you need to shield and such. .25s is pretty big. That doesn't take into account pvp implications, too.

I could come up with ideas for Crown, but then again, anyone could do that. I'm neutral either way, though, since I own it and won't be hurt whatever teh decision is.

Tiur

The crown is so not part of this discussion.

Satomi

I'm urging @Toz to retest Carnifex for me. Hopefully with/without fractured, with/without weapon rune, with/without Furor/Openings/both, on both hammer and polearm.

Do this for me, Toz. Master Forger Toz. Oh handsomest Toz. (or just supply me with max dmg weapons, since finding them is impossible).

Also, so not taking into account the fact that Mauls and Warhammers, Halberds and Bardiches are all different weapons. So not barking up that tree.

Also, get me a max damage whip, Toz.

Evalyne

If you use what Imperian does, keep in mind their system has weapon and armor artifacts that were a significant part of the balancing. One of the coders once said they basically balanced the DPS around a L1 artifact weapon.

Toz

GOAL: 100k damage TEST 1: WHAMMY @ 17 str 167/73/103 - no buffs 424.03 dps (600*2@2.83) TEST 2: WHAMMY @ 17 str 167/73/103 - hound openings 544.44 dps (600*2@2.83 to 901*2@2.83) TEST 3: WHAMMY @ 17 str 167/73/103 - furor (adds 181 damage per hit, and .43s) 439.70 dps (600*2@2.83 to 781*2@3.26) TEST 4: WHAMMY @ 17 str 167/73/103 - furor+openings, furor on cd 554.29 dps (600*2@2.83 to 1172*2@3.26) TEST 5: WHAMMY @ 17 str 167/73/103 - furor+openings, furor on openings only 581.06 dps (600*2@2.83 to 1172*2@3.26) ======= SOUL FRACTURE TIME ======= TEST 1: WHAMMY @ 17 str (180/73/103) - no buffs 454.42 dps (643*2@2.83) TEST 2: WHAMMY @ 17 str (180/73/103) - hound openings 579.56 dps (643*2@2.83 to 965*2@2.83) TEST 3: WHAMMY @ 17 str (180/73/103) - furor 472.37 dps (643*2@2.83 to 836*2@3.26) TEST 4: WHAMMY @ 17 str (180/73/103) - furor+openings, furor on cd 610.97 dps (643*2@2.83 to 1172*2@3.26) TEST 5: WHAMMY @ 17 str (180/73/103) - furor+openings, furor on openings only 596.64 dps (600*2@2.83 to 1172*2@3.26) HALBERDS 135/x/133 - 482*2@2.35 (410.21 dps) 146/x/123 - 513*2@2.41 (425.73 dps) 157/x/111 - 552*2@2.48 (445.16 dps) 166/x/101 - 575*2@2.56 (449.22 dps) 180/x/101 - 616*2@2.56 (481.25 dps)* * = soul fracture active ** = rune attached *** = rune + soul fracture GOAL: 100k damage TEST 1: HALB @ 17 str 166/x/101 - no buffs 449.22 dps (575*2@2.56) TEST 2: HALB @ 17 str 167/73/103 - hound openings 575.43 dps (575*2@2.56 to 864*2@2.56) TEST 3: HALB @ 17 str 167/73/103 - furor 478.78 dps (575*2@2.56 to 749*2@2.76) TEST 4: HALB @ 17 str 167/73/103 - furor+openings, furor on cd 599.04 dps (575*2@2.56 to 1123*2@2.76) TEST 5: HALB @ 17 str 167/73/103 - furor+openings, furor on openings only 608.50 dps (575*2@2.56 to 1123*2@2.76) ======= SOUL FRACTURE TIME ======= TEST 1: HALB @ 17 str (180/73/103) - no buffs 481.25 dps (616*2@2.56) TEST 2: HALB @ 17 str (180/73/103) - hound openings 605.70 dps (616*2@2.56 to 924*2@2.56) TEST 3: HALB @ 17 str (180/73/103) - furor 510.55 dps (616*2@2.56 to 801*2@2.76) TEST 4: HALB @ 17 str (180/73/103) - furor+openings, furor on cd 645.43 dps (616*2@2.83 to 1202*2@2.76) TEST 5: HALB @ 17 str (180/73/103) - furor+openings, furor on openings only 644.44 dps (616*2@2.83 to 1202*2@2.76) ======= MAXIMUM EFFORT ======= TEST: HALB @ 17 str (181/x/131) - level 3 rune, furor+openings, furor on cd 706.54 dps (899*2@2.36 to 1168*2@2.55) Killed the unkillable Chiav at only 30k out of 100k damage this time :neutral:

The flux in openings/furor vs furor on cd + openings is related to procs lining up. It's kind of a gamble- could be more dps, or less, depending on if you get an openings proc as soon as you get furor cd back.

Also I used the mastery for polearms that cuts down the furor balance knock- halberd is definitely the way to go, with that.

Satomi

@Toz My math might be wrong, on the DPS stuff, but if you're doing 2x 1202 dmg hits at 2.76 speed, my math has it coming out as 871 dps. At least during that period of time you have furor and openings active at the same time. (This was for the Halberd one:

TEST 5: HALB @ 17 str (180/73/103) - furor+openings, furor on openings only
644.44 dps (616*2@2.83 to 1202*2@2.76)

Also, I'll admit, I completely forgot about masteries. I'm pretty sure I run that one constantly too, though, because it's just the best mastery for bashing.

Eliadon

I think he's averaging DPS over the entire session, because that's a lot easier than trying to math the output when the buffs are active.

Toz

@Satomi I test dps up to 100k damage total for hound openings/furor, because they ebb and flow- neither buff has a 100% uptime. That means you can't just look at the up and say 'oh wow I do 800+ dps' because when openings is not up and furor is on cd you only do 481 dps. You wind up somewhere in the middle!

Satomi

ohhhhh, I thought you were saying that you went from X to Y. Okay. Yeah, my numbers weren't averages. Just hard numbers based on the buff state you were in. So, basically, Toz's dps was a low of 481 and a high of 871.. which is still ridiculously buff compared to the next best option, from my list. Even averaged.

Toz

Satomi said:

ohhhhh, I thought you were saying that you went from X to Y. Okay. Yeah, my numbers weren't averages. Just hard numbers based on the buff state you were in. So, basically, Toz's dps was a low of 481 and a high of 871.. which is still ridiculously buff compared to the next best option, from my list. Even averaged.

My dps was tested for 100k damage in total (so however many hits that took, to break 100k, then I stopped it) using the scenario outlined. For example, hound openings+furor. I turned on hound openings, and did qeb furor;pole spinslash chiav and totaled the base damage done (I just used division to clear crits basically), then divided that by the amount of balance used to reach 100k damage. So each of those tests are with that specific set of defs ebbing and flowing for the duration. So my dps low of 481 was just using spinslash, then the full dps of openings+furor over the course of time (like a bashing trip) came out to more like 644.

So it isn't just averaged together, because hound openings might not have a 50% uptime and furor certainly doesn't. Furor's like 15s every 60s, and openings has a proc % before going on cd for a few rounds, I suspect. There's definitely some hits required before it fires, as well- usually about 3-4 rounds in after hitting the chiav at t0 it would fire, then ebb and flow. Makes the class real interesting, but lots of potential for wasted dps in between mobs - if you have furor/openings up, kill the mob in one shot then the next 5 rooms you check are empty, your dps spike is wasted.

Still great for bashing though.

Vyxsis

Satomi said:

Also, Vyxsis brought to my attention that it could be possible that some values can feel inflated if you've spent a lot of time teaching newbies class skills, depending on how skillranks buff our bashing output. Admins would have to confirm or deny if an over-buffed skillset through teaching contributes or not.

just btw, turns out i'm a dum-dum and forgot i had a caramel chocolate active. i do ~1k less than i was reporting - still a bit more than i did before, but not ludicrously more.

Kyna

Hey friends!

After catching up, the mixed feelings on this change is very understandable, however I would like to point out that this IS NOT the end-game for the PvE changes in regards to bashing. As @Keroc said at the beginning of his announce "Today I bring you the first set of changes aimed at updating the PvE experience..."

I point this out because, for those that are discouraged, this is only the first step. Pulling bashing closer together in regards to the output of numbers sets our foundation. Don't let it be off-putting or keep you from gracing us with your character's presence(s). We're working hard to release bigger and better things as well as working hard to deliver on promises made before us - it's a tough balancing act, so please have mercy!

Roll with it! Experiment! We're here. We listen. We're excited and we're getting content out as quickly as we can! PvE won't feel so neglected... C-can I say it? No. It's still too soon.

Rhyot

There's a lot that goes into PVE that makes a person want to do it, or in this case, NOT want to do it. In the thread I created, its just not feasible to go hunting because you'll pay far more in gold to purchase and resupply yourself with curatives than you will gain. Additionally, the 1% loss on death is an absolutely horrible game plan to make people WANT to perform in the PVE realm. As people will literally lose 1-5 hours of work in a single moment. This deters a lot of people from wanting to do PVE.

Hell, even in the Orrery when people die they are losing massive amounts of experience. For what? So death can have a point? Its a punishment... a severe punishment for both PVE and PVP to die. A punishment that SHOULDN'T be as absolutely terrible as it is.

TLDR; Please look at reducing the xp lost upon death in PVE and increase gold payouts to actually be something profitable so that people will WANT to do it.

Evalyne

"Roll with it"

Er, how about no? I don't enjoy doing this anymore, I am going to spend things I enjoy doing, ultimately.

Right now it's a huge investment to get involved in PVE, and the returns are so minimal beyond experience they may as well be zero. So what's the point? Well, engaging in something you enjoy was the point, with something like Imperian, before the playerbase kind of just died. I'm the kind of ridiculous lunatic that enjoys PVE enough I legit level through old WoW expansion pack content like WOTLK and sometimes even Pandaria, but I find nothing to appeal to me in Aetolia that does so strongly enough to overcome my aversion to how much time and effort I'd have to put into getting myself ready to go.

I think the thing that the majority of people in this thread are guilty of too, is looking at this through the lens of people who have a bunch of artifacts. Part of the reason bashing on Evalyne and bashing on Mykellah are so night and day is Evalyne is a whale benefitting from Anette's retirement credits and Mykellah doesn't even have artifact vials let alone stat arties. Bashing on the latter is an experience I find about as pleasant as having one of my legs chopped off.

The idea that I will lose hours of effort, because my connection acted up or something - which has happened more than once, I'm on hospital wifi not some business class connection - is extremely discouraging, as Rhyot pointed out. It does not seem worth the risks to make that venture when the reward is so slim.

Either increase the reward or decrease the risk, that's what it comes down to.


[edit]:

To those whom might argue you don't have to invest that much to become involved in PVE, try bashing from 50 to endgame with no artifacts, chocolates, assistance from other players, or other boons outside of the skills that you procure from lessons and credits that are given as progression rewards, and see how long you retain that point of view.

This game becomes easily artificially skewed by the presence of artifacts, where you can essentially buy comfort or convinence for a fee of real money, but I feel that should not excuse what I find to be an ultimately unfun game design.

Tiur

I'm not entirely sure what your points are. We're discussing the rebalance here, not the plan for the future in general. XP is not a part of that. We modified damages to bring them in line, and are discussing whether we missed some combinations, or even if our 'baseline' might be off. That really barely even has to do with artifacts, unless you are finding that an artifact is pulling a bashing skill up or down disproportionately.

I mean, sure, we're listening about what you want to see out of a PvE system in the future, but discussing xp and effort and cost of entry etc etc - Outside the scope of this.

Everyone throwing up data and thoughts, good on you. Thank you for the help! Weapons are especially egregious because of their weird formula nonsense.

Evalyne

Mmm, I guess the inherent risk or reward of a system is not part of it's balance. Meh, I have nothing to add apparently, so I'll go.

Kyrdo

Looking through the vast majority of the posts here, I have not yet noticed any of them concerning Sentinel bashing. With that said, I do not mind that Sentinels got hit with such a massive damage reduction, I realized that we were able to deal out huge amounts of with rather quick balance recovery times. Personally I dropped from 705 DPS to 489 ( approximately 30% reduction ) This in and of itself might not be so bad, but a large amount of our ability to tank while hunting is due to the Lifesap skill.

I've noticed a huge difference in the places I've been able to bash before these changes to where I can now, and it feels like we've been hit really hard by this change. We not only deal a lot less damage, but every attack, we heal less as well. If this could be looked into it would be appreciated.

Satomi

@Kyrdo If the admins want to just give me every class in the game, since I'm already a class monster, I'd be more than happy to do testy things with them

Pretty please? Yes?

Serrice

I'm glad there's no real reason for me to hunt anymore, besides hunting up newbies, because the combination of:

1) no gold drops
2) agonizing slowness with damage reductions
3) inflated death penalties

-- means that I don't really see a point. I'd have to kill like a third of Xaanhal just to see the same amount of exp that one PK in a ylem zone would give, and if I die once because I DC, I lose all of the only thing I accumulate in any meaningful amount. At least in Achaea if I die I know I have 20-30k gold on hand as a consolation prize!

Hopefully something here changes.